What I find interesting in the "rules light" approach is that First Ed has been accused time and time again to be a nitpicky system full of oddities and particular cases, that basically was the incarnation of a bloated system from the core on!
Have times changed and opinions evolved with them, or are we not talking about the same audience, here?
Heh. Perhaps a bit of both. I think the zeitgeist is that 4E is similiar in spirit, in a wild and whahoo way, with an anything goes mentality. Rules wise, of course, 4E borrows on some of the better ideas from 3E and utilizes some pretty standardized mechanics throughout the whole thing, going so far as that chart from the DMG for generic stunts.
So maybe it's a best of both worlds thing? Or maybe most of you 1E old timers died off and us young-uns are just making stuff up? :P
These wars will continue until you all agree with me that Bunnies and Burrows was the GRPGED*Until then, you may all consider yourselves combatants and I will open up a can of whoop-*ss if you provoke an attack of opportunity from me.
Roll inititive!
Bunnies Rule!
*Greatest Role Playing Game Ever, Dude!
Just to be clear here. We are talking about the 1st or 2nd edition version published by Fantasy Games Unlimited, right? Not the awful heap of garbage that Steve Jackson created when he forced the innovative game into the straight jacket that is Gurps. Nor are we talking about Risus which just strips out all the themes and mechanics that makes B&B such an wonderful and compelling system.
So if we are talking about true Bunnies and Burrows (1st or 2nd edition) then I'll get on this train.
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*Greatest Role Playing Game Ever, Dude!Just to be clear here. We are talking about the 1st or 2nd edition version published by Fantasy Games Unlimited, right? Not the awful heap of garbage that Steve Jackson created when he forced the innovative game into the straight jacket that is Gurps. Nor are we talking about Risus which just strips out all the themes and mechanics that makes B&B such an wonderful and compelling system system.
So if we are talking about true Bunnies and Burrows (1st or 2nd edition) then I'll get on this train.
I prefer the Fudge variety.
Why is there still back-and-forth about 4e vs 3e?
A few folks with decent INT but low WIS.
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So maybe it's a best of both worlds thing? Or maybe most of you 1E old timers died off and us young-uns are just making stuff up? :P
<wracking coughing fit> Eh? Wha? The nurse just woke me up for my medicine and I happened to see this.
4E is like 1E? Eh? No, not really. Oh, I could stretch a few things here and there to try to "show" that, but folks could easily poke holes into it. I don't think so.
The closest thing I've found with the "feel" of 1st edition is Microlite20. Fighting Man, Cleric, Mage, Elf, Dwarf, etc. I really enjoy it for some quick, fun play.
1E to me was sitting around on couches eating pizza and role-playing. I remember running the whole session just by descriptions, no battle-map or miniatures. The addition of grids and "opportunity attack" and all that really removed some of the theatric flair.
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The closest thing I've found with the "feel" of 1st edition is Microlite20. Fighting Man, Cleric, Mage, Elf, Dwarf, etc. I really enjoy it for some quick, fun play.
Are you sure you're not talking about OD&D and/or Holmes/Moldvay, instead of AD&D?
I can see what you mean when comparing to these games, but AD&D ... I don't know.
Yes, if you're talking on the player's side of the DM Screen.
Were you player or DM?
(This Microlite20 is really cool)
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The closest thing I've found with the "feel" of 1st edition is Microlite20. Fighting Man, Cleric, Mage, Elf, Dwarf, etc. I really enjoy it for some quick, fun play.Are you sure you're not talking about OD&D and/or Holmes/Moldvay, instead of AD&D?
I can see what you mean when comparing to these games, but AD&D ... I don't know.
Yes, if you're talking on the player's side of the DM Screen.
Were you player or DM?(This Microlite20 is really cool)
I was a player at various times, but mostly the DM.
Now, here, you want to get me started on Edition wars, you get me started on what was "1E". If it had "Advanced" in the title, it came after 1E no matter what sort of naming system they came up with. See HERE for evidence of that.
So for me, 4E is like, 6E or 7E or something. I dunno. I've lost track at this point.
And Microlite20 is really cool. It's really great for teaching kids to play. And would work well for Cons too.
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Now, here, you want to get me started on Edition wars, you get me started on what was "1E". If it had "Advanced" in the title, it came after 1E no matter what sort of naming system they came up with. See HERE for evidence of that.
No, not trying to start a flamewar here. Just that the description you gave of "1E" made me wonder.
So for you, what's on the Flickr picture is "1E", right?
Seems like I was right to be puzzled. See, for me it isn't. What's on that picture there I call the Holmes Basic set (aka 4th to 7th printings of Classic D&D), or simply "Holmes" for short.
When I say "1E"/"First Ed", I mean "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons". I mean this, here. That's the denomination that is used the most by collectors and gamers alike.
Hence the misunderstanding. :-)
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So for you, what's on the Flickr picture is "1E", right?
Well, no. The first edition of DnD from my perspective was a smaller box with a Wizard on the front. I don't have those anymore, sadly.
I "get" that TSR decided to name AD&D "1st edition". But while all of you youngsters are fighting 3E v. 4E battles, some of us fought our edition battles long ago. (on dial-in BBS's using 300 & 1200 baud modems..) After awhile you just accept that change happens whether you like it or not, so might as well enjoy the ride. :-)
Btw, I used my crayon colored in d20 at Paizocon in Jason's game. That was a hoot.
Btw, I used my crayon colored in d20 at Paizocon in Jason's game. That was a hoot.
But weren't those old dice considered uneven? I like the idea though. I actually used to have a d20 that went from 0 to 9 twice (found it in an old FASA Star Trek game I bought at a swap meet). It was the first time I had ever seen a polyhedral die, at least up close. I remember it being red and trying to fill the numbers in with a fine-line marker, but reading about the crayon thing made me smack my forehead. Too bad I can't find it anymore, I really should try looking again, it was my first d20 (sorta ;)).
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Well, no. The first edition of DnD from my perspective was a smaller box with a Wizard on the front.
Honestly, you're the first guy I read who wants to call OD&D (1974) "First edition". "Original Dungeons & Dragons", OD&D, "The White Box" are the common denominations. I play OD&D too, by the way.
So obviously, I got confused. :-)
So what you're saying is that 4E reminds you more of OD&D than AD&D.
Correct, this time?
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Honestly, you're the first guy I read who wants to call OD&D (1974) "First edition". "Original Dungeons & Dragons", OD&D, "The White Box" are the common denominations. I play OD&D too, by the way.
Yes, well, I'm quite ODD. :-) Realize "1E" was retroactively renamed from AD&D after 2nd edition came out. It was never really called that at the time. I started on "OD&D", avoided "advanced" for a good while but finally picked it up in high school, picked up 2nd edition late as a player, picked up 3rd edition and stuck with it for a goodly time. I never used 3.5, really. Didn't see the point. Never picked up much beyond the 3.0 core books and the original brown softbound splats (song & silence, etc.)
I played in a 2nd edition Dragonlance campaign for awhile (see above), but other than that my campaign has been homebrew loosely based on the map from Divine Right (a TSR Game from a *looong* time ago.) and Dungeon magazine. I recently started playing in a Forgotten Realms game but had never really looked at it or read any of the books until just recently.
So obviously, I got confused. :-)
I often have that effect.
So what you're saying is that 4E reminds you more of OD&D than AD&D.
Correct, this time?
Well.. Microlite20 reminds me of OD&D (now that I know the name.) 4E reminds me of.... 3E further tweaked via various outside and internal influences. Comparing 4E to OD&D, I do like that 4E has gone back to simpler alignment and planes in the base product. Good/Neutral/Evil is what I've mostly used anyway.
To me, D&D really has transitioned into a tactical/rpg experience, rather then just an rpg. And that's ok, I like playing that type of game too. If I want to do just pure rpg I'll do Microlite20/FengShui/SavageWorlds or some other "tactical light" game. There are a great deal more choices available compared to 30 years ago. :-)
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But weren't those old dice considered uneven?
Shhh!
I actually used to have a d20 that went from 0 to 9 twice (found it in an old FASA Star Trek game I bought at a swap meet).
I owned FASA Star Trek.... New.... Sigh. I liked Traveller better. Still have the original books. Star Frontiers too - original box with unpunched tokens. Space Opera - Blech. Maybe we can start a "Space RPG" edition wars thread too? :-)
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Yes, well, I'm quite ODD. :-) Realize "1E" was retroactively renamed from AD&D after 2nd edition came out.
Yup. Logical. Nothing wrong with that. We just had a problem of terminology we worked out. That's cool. :-)
It was never really called that at the time. I started on "OD&D", avoided "advanced" for a good while but finally picked it up in high school, picked up 2nd edition late as a player, picked up 3rd edition and stuck with it for a goodly time. I never used 3.5, really. Didn't see the point. Never picked up much beyond the 3.0 core books and the original brown softbound splats (song & silence, etc.)
I started by playing AD&D, personally. Only later did I purchase Mentzer (Red Box Basic) for myself. Then I took back AD&D and ran it for quite some time (mostly adventures of my own. That's then that I played the original DL modules too).
I too went for AD&D2 relatively late, and if many of the settings brought some of my best memories in terms of game play (Ravenloft and Spelljammer in particular), I never truly liked the rules, particularly the skill system (I already was a huge fan of RuneQuest, Stormbringer, CoC at the time, and couldn't bring myself to consider this as a "real" skill system).
Then I went off to play a whole lot of different games... until 3rd ed showed up in my FLGS. I ran one long campaign in particular, based on the FRCS. Later I went for Arcana Unearthed, then Ptolus, with lots of different side games in the meantime (including some OD&D, incidentally). Now, I'm fully back with the old editions of the game and C&C. :-)
Well.. Microlite20 reminds me of OD&D (now that I know the name.) 4E reminds me of.... 3E further tweaked via various outside and internal influences. Comparing 4E to OD&D, I do like that 4E has gone back to simpler alignment and planes in the base product. Good/Neutral/Evil is what I've mostly used anyway.
To me, D&D really has transitioned into a tactical/rpg experience, rather then just an rpg. And that's ok, I like playing that type of game too. If I want to do just pure rpg I'll do Microlite20/FengShui/SavageWorlds or some other "tactical light" game. There are a great deal more choices available compared to 30 years ago. :-)
The tactical element starts to bore me, personally. Been there, done that with 3rd ed. Don't get me wrong: I have tons of minis, love to play games with them, was a Fighter player, mainly, because I looove Feats. Pathfinder will make me a happy gamer on that front!
Paradoxically, I can understand better comparisons of OD&D and 4E rather than 4E and AD&D. Hence my surprise when I was reading your posts!
I play/run tons of different RPGs otherwise. A lot of New World of Darkness lately (Vampire The Requiem mainly). I acquired The Savage World of Solomon Kane not too long ago and as I've never tried the system, I want to give it a shot! I want to play some Call of Cthulhu again, as well. Some Star Wars Saga too. A homebrew Iron Heroes. More Ptolus.
But not everything at once. For now, that's back to the source with AD&D and C&C! :-)
Hey,
Hope this isn't an inappropriate place for this (not sure what thread I'm putting this into), but I've a favor to ask:
Luke, I saw you made a Tamoachan conversion and ship log for STAP, but your last reply there was about 1 year ago. Am just starting to run STAP, and since the only site I can find your stuff on has broken links, thought I'd ask if you don't mind emailing them to me (or emailing a link to a site with them). Email is (no spaces) j hy att (at) k nox (dot) e du
Sorry for the randomness! Thanks a lot.
Wow, you guys make me feel young! The first edition I ever saw was 2E, and not even the first print run!
I do own a few 1E (as in AD&D) books though, that I've picked up over the years as a collector type of thing, and I used to own one of the old boxes (boy was it confusing as a kid to buy what I thought was just another DnD set to find weird rules like "pick your class: Fighter, Magic-User, Cleric, Thief, Elf, Dwarf, or Halfing". Hold on now, what?
It's somewhat of a shame we're not talking about music anymore 'cause I've been looking for a quote for days now that just seemed so approps to this thread earlier. It's too good not to post, so even though we're back to gaming, here it is:
When you get to be a certain age, everything that is cool seems to be a lot of nonsensical, idiotic jibberish. The music that blares from the pimp rides makes no sense; it all sounds like a man with severe autism halfheartedly explaining human sexuality to a parrot, while in the background a dangerously unqualified Caribbean contractor rhythmically installs an automatic garage door opener. B@*%+&%s.
Cheers! :)
It's somewhat of a shame we're not talking about music anymore 'cause I've been looking for a quote for days now that just seemed so approps to this thread earlier. It's too good not to post, so even though we're back to gaming, here it is:
......b@*&!#&s.
Great quote. And I think it is very appropriate to the Edition Wars discussion. It is all about preferences. I could hear someone posting; 'When people explain why they like 4e it sounds like a man with severe autism halfheartedly explaining human sexuality to a parrot.' In case it is not obvious, I am making fun of the poster, not the person who likes 4e.
Great quote. And I think it is very appropriate to the Edition Wars discussion. It is all about preferences. I could hear someone saying; 'When people explain why they like 4e it sounds like a man with severe autism halfheartedly explaining human sexuality to a parrot.' In case it is not obvious, making fun of the commentor, not the person who likes 4e.
Thanks Duncan! The first time I read it I laughed so hard I got weird looks from workmates (who maybe were staring because my work isn't really supposed to be funny ...)
As an aside, I'm shocked (shocked!) that this board censored the last work in that quote. We have a very prim word filter here, as I've never, ever, thought of that as a dirty word. The more you know, I 'spose.
Cheers! :)
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Hey,
Hope this isn't an inappropriate place for this (not sure what thread I'm putting this into), but I've a favor to ask:
Luke, I saw you made a Tamoachan conversion and ship log for STAP, but your last reply there was about 1 year ago. Am just starting to run STAP, and since the only site I can find your stuff on has broken links, thought I'd ask if you don't mind emailing them to me (or emailing a link to a site with them). Email is (no spaces) j hy att (at) k nox (dot) e du
Sorry for the randomness! Thanks a lot.
No problem. I'll try to remember to send it when I get home tonight.
But the truth is, it isn't just a game. All of my close friends are gamers. I met my wife playing D&D. My sister and brother-in-law are both gamers, and my niece and nephew are learning how to play. The game that we play is an integral part of the social aspect of our lives. It has kept us close and in contact for decades. It is as much a part of my life as my family, my job or my faith.Oh, I see, if you view the game as some sort of tribal value that's integral to your identity, that's totally different. Zealotry from such groups is entirely acceptable and appropriate. One thought: don't be afraid to resort to violence to defend your values. Clearly those who do not appreciate the game in the exact same manner as you are heretics and should be opposed with any and all means possible.
Is this a shot at me, or are you just stating your own values?
I really find it dismissive at least, insulting at worse, when people keep repeating the "it's just a game" mantra. That's the case for you? Great! But don't talk to me about what's important and not important in my life. This hobby is important in my life... because of what blackdragon said, almost exactly.In one respect, they're right. It is 'just a game.' And the Bible (Koran, Torah, Bhagavad-Gita, whatever) is 'just a book,' a book full of fantastic images and stories that people consider important to their lives, schedule their time around and that has helped them connect with other people who share similar interests / beliefs. Some dude who restores antique cars, or collects historical books, or plays an online game could be equally wrapped up in their 'passion.'
Contrary to the jaded emo crowd, it's not actually unhealthy or 'un-cool' to *LIKE SOMETHING.* The world is not as dreary and depressing as the 'everything sucks, be somber' crowd maintains, and if a person likes something enough to get passionate about it, it's not a sign of mental instability, it's a sign of a person *not* being clinically depressed or soul-crushingly cynical.
Soccer is 'just a game.' One whose fans will violently pummel the crap out of each other. We're nowhere near that level of passion about our 'just a game,' and, a few bad apples aside, who insist on calling one faction or the other violent extremists or irrational or fanatics or fascists or sock-puppets or apologists or 'fanbois' or 'haters' or whatever, we're pretty even-keeled people.
Is it possible to take the game 'too seriously?' Probably. But, bad Tom Hanks movies aside, we aren't running around in the sewers stabbing people because we think they're 'monsters.' We aren't running around in the streets flipping over cars and setting them on fire when 'our team' loses, and comparing us to people who *do* flip out and take stuff like that a bit too seriously is just attacking fellow gamers, which is kinda lame, since...
Well said.
They didn't cancel Dungeon or Dragon, they just reclaimed the license from Paizo for their own use. Both Dungeon and Dragon are alive and (now) well online at WotC's website.
The digital version of the "Magazines is a pale poorly formed replacement for the product that paizo was producing.
Where does Wizards say that older customers were fools for buying previous editions of D&D?
Did you listen to the video that they presented at Gencon? They tell you that the old system was flawed crap that was no fun to play (crap is my word).
Where does Wizards claim that the new books are poorly playtested, cheaply printed, or overpriced? How many D&D accessories from prior to 3.x can be used with 3.x? Did that 'force' people into 3.x?No, the cheep printing, poor play testing and over priced thing is my statement.
To paraphrase Abe Lincoln, calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.
And calling a spade a spade doesn't change the fact that it's still a f*$king shovel.
Seriously, between you and Sebastian, I see one person making sarcastic exagerations of the situation to point out the ridiculousness of the whole thing, and I see one person making short-sighted comments and insults. I'm not saying either of you is helping, but at least Sebastian's funny.
And you think sitting on the outside taking shots and repeating the mantra that it's only a game, when that's what keeps pissing us off is helpful? You're not nearly as contructive as you think you are.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Edit2: And apologies to Blackdragon for this post. I hate discussing other posters like...
I don't think you need to worry. He came in yesterday, spammed 10 posts in less then an hour into this thread (See: BlackDragon Posts ) and then must have gotten distracted by the next shiny object. :-) I just ignored the posts for the most part. There is no reason to argue, nothing I say will sway him and I don't enjoy bickering as much as you do. :-)
Damnit. I knew I should've responded to say "don't worry, he'll be back in 1d6 days and will make 2d4 spamming posts before departing again."
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Damnit. I knew I should've responded to say "don't worry, he'll be back in 1d6 days and will make 2d4 spamming posts before departing again."Edit2: And apologies to Blackdragon for this post. I hate discussing other posters like...
I don't think you need to worry. He came in yesterday, spammed 10 posts in less then an hour into this thread (See: BlackDragon Posts ) and then must have gotten distracted by the next shiny object. :-) I just ignored the posts for the most part. There is no reason to argue, nothing I say will sway him and I don't enjoy bickering as much as you do. :-)
I think he made his recharge roll.
Edit2: And apologies to Blackdragon for this post. I hate discussing other posters like...
I don't think you need to worry. He came in yesterday, spammed 10 posts in less then an hour into this thread (See: BlackDragon Posts ) and then must have gotten distracted by the next shiny object. :-) I just ignored the posts for the most part. There is no reason to argue, nothing I say will sway him and I don't enjoy bickering as much as you do. :-)
Spammed 10 post? Sorry, I don't have all day to sit in front of a computer keeping up with all this crap. I have a business to run. I respond to what ever post I have time to read in the morning. Single me out like this again and I'll take it to a mod.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Spammed 10 post? Sorry, I don't have all day to sit in front of a computer keeping up with all this crap. I have a business to run. I respond to what ever post I have time to read in the morning. Single me out like this again and I'll take it to a mod.Edit2: And apologies to Blackdragon for this post. I hate discussing other posters like...
I don't think you need to worry. He came in yesterday, spammed 10 posts in less then an hour into this thread (See: BlackDragon Posts ) and then must have gotten distracted by the next shiny object. :-) I just ignored the posts for the most part. There is no reason to argue, nothing I say will sway him and I don't enjoy bickering as much as you do. :-)
Knock yourself out, take it to a mod.
The digital version of the "Magazines is a pale poorly formed replacement for the product that paizo was producing.
DDI's Dragon and Dungeon online content have been very good or haven't you looked at them.
Did you listen to the video that they presented at Gencon? They tell you that the old system was flawed crap that was no fun to play (crap is my word).
Your over blowing that whole thing. Of coarse 3.5 is perfect. ;)
No, the cheep printing, poor play testing and over priced thing is my statement.
The 4E core books aren't any more expensive that the 3.X ones really and (IMHO) are very nicely put together.
And calling a spade a spade doesn't change the fact that it's still a f*$king shovel.
But not every shovel is a spade.
I think he made his recharge roll.
Is it a Spew Bile or Acid? Duh, Blackdragons breathe Acid, so just kidding! ;)
And I thought this thread had settled. I did not post to it yesterday from fear of stirring it up again.
And I thought this thread had settled. I did not post to it yesterday from fear of stirring it up again.
It's like the bald guy from Phantasm. "It's never over!"
Cue little silver ball sucking my brains out ...
It's like the bald guy from Phantasm. "It's never over!"Cue little silver ball sucking my brains out ...
After seeing Phantasm at the movie theather, I put one of those Silver Balls in a dungeon of mine. Needless to say, one of the PC's brains did get sprayed all over the floor of the dungeon. ;)
After seeing Phantasm at the movie theather, I put one of those Silver Balls in a dungeon of mine. Needless to say, one of the PC's brains did get sprayed all over the floor of the dungeon. ;)
Awesome! I hope you didn't forget to inclue some Jawas too. ;)
Awesome! I hope you didn't forget to inclue some Jawas too. ;)
LOL! I did indeed put some of the little guys in that dungeon as well as the tuning fork gateway.
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Then I went off to play a whole lot of different games... until 3rd ed showed up in my FLGS. I ran one long campaign in particular, based on the FRCS. Later I went for Arcana Unearthed, then Ptolus, with lots of different side games in the meantime (including some OD&D, incidentally). Now, I'm fully back with the old editions of the game and C&C. :-)
Yes, I've debated older editions and C&C. The folks in my main group wanted to give 4E a try (they're done with 3E, unfortunately, for now) and see how it went. So far after 1/2 dozen sessions the results are mixed. From a Dm perspective, it is easier. The players feel a bit constrained, and we spend a great deal of time staring at little guys on squares. We'll see how it goes.