So why is it that some of the pro-4E posters are all over threads calling the new system by terms such as "powerz" and "skillz" but this post, which was decidedly pro-4E had the same people NOT complaining about the use of such terms.
Interesting little bit of human psychology going on there.
Where is "powerz" and "skillz" used in this thread? I don't remember seeing them.
In the review itself. Multiple times. Or did you not actually read the "negatives" section?Where is "powerz" and "skillz" used in this thread? I don't remember seeing them.
Ok, reading it over, again, I can see the use of the z. I guess because he was giving a balanced and fair review and not trying to be insulting with the use of the z's that I didn't notice.
And yes, I did read the whole review.
Are you trying to be a azz hole or are just normally like that.
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Ok, reading it over, again, I can see the use of the z. I guess because he was giving a balanced and fair review that I didn't notice.And yes, I did read the whole review.
Are you trying to be a azz hole or are just normally like that.
Considering the repeated use, the question was a valid one, and yes that includes questioning whether you (spoken in a global sense) read the entire review or not. Which goes back to the original question: why the double standard? Somebody who absolutely hates the game and writes an honest review of why they hate it gets bashed for similar language, yet in this case, as you have just demonstrated, the same language isn't even noticed on a generally positive review, even when used in a neutral context in a negative section of the review.
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So why is it that some of the pro-4E posters are all over threads calling the new system by terms such as "powerz" and "skillz" but this post, which was decidedly pro-4E had the same people NOT complaining about the use of such terms.
Interesting little bit of human psychology going on there.
Simple - connotation.
Considering the repeated use, the question was a valid one, and yes that includes questioning whether you (spoken in a global sense) read the entire review or not.
No, you were responding to my post and you (spoken in the direct sense) were asserting that I hadn't even read the review.
As for why people were not put out by the use of z is that it wasn't used in a insulting manner. Which it has been used in the past on this forums by posters who quote "HATE 4E".
This is a very interesting statement simply because of...
Seems like according to one of the developers that WAS in essence one of the primary goals of 4E.Q: Was the power system from MMOs like World of Warcraft? Were you conscious of comparisons? Were you trying to streamline 3.5 or copy MMOs?
A: A combination- streamline 3.5 while picking up on what makes MMOs so easy to get into. Mearls loves hearing that the “game runs smoothly.” The designers tried very hard to make the rules such that if they were designed for something, they just said it instead of trying to hide it. Like a Fighter’s job is to protect everyone else, so that’s now stated up front. Previous editions could feel like a “passive-aggressive friend” that obfuscated what the true purpose of a rule was.
It seems to me that you are misconstruing the statement here quite strongly to reaffirm your already existing bias. Nothing in the answer suggests that 4E is meant to simulate a MMORPG. As others have pointed out, the full reply also mentions taking ideas from Eurogames. Does 4E simulate those as well?
Edit: Clean up quotes
I used Z in powerz cos I thought it was funny. There are to many mindless I love/hate 4th ed posts around. I had negative views of the game system but bought it anyway just to see what it was about. The more I read.
As I said I liked the minion rules and it felt like D&D Basic where you could walk into a romm and maybe have 10-30 odd monsters in there. In 3.5 you usually didn't enounter that many monsters and if you did they weren't that threatening. 4th ed playes better than it looks and is alot easier to design. From a DMs POV its better than 3.5 IMHO. The PHB leaves a bit to be desired and I don't really like the classes that much or powerz.
All I knowz is that Warlordz r0xx0rz my b0xx0rz. ;P
PS: Thanks for the review! I agree that 4E should be a lot easier on the DM, which is nice since I'm often elected to that role! :)
oh well...guess my impressions are wrong. thanks for setting me straight. i was really starting to like 4e, but your attitude correction (CWM) has turned me away from it. thanks.
heh..
not really, good thing David Marks is around to be nice and cheery to us all.
Don't worry. I'm sure its all a ruse to lure you into a sense of false security. I assume these bug appendages I've stuck to my face will allow me to produce a sticky webbing that will aid me in feasting on your juicy corpses once 4E's hidden powerz has struck you dead (save ends?)
But, err ... perhaps I've said too much. :P
oh well...guess my impressions are wrong. thanks for setting me straight. i was really starting to like 4e, but your attitude correction (CWM) has turned me away from it. thanks.
heh..
not really, good thing David Marks is around to be nice and cheery to us all.
Don't worry. I'm sure its all a ruse to lure you into a sense of false security. I assume these bug appendages I've stuck to my face will allow me to produce a sticky webbing that will aid me in feasting on your juicy corpses once 4E's hidden powerz has struck you dead (save ends?)
But, err ... perhaps I've said too much. :P
And the leftovers get given to Nicholas Logue for inspiration.
“My friend doesn’t like you.”
“I’m sorry.”
“I don’t like you either.”
“…”
“I have the death sentence on 12 systems.”
“I’ll be careful.”
“You’ll be dead!”
Some people just don't learn.
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oh well...guess my impressions are wrong. thanks for setting me straight. i was really starting to like 4e, but your attitude correction (CWM) has turned me away from it. thanks.
heh..
not really, good thing David Marks is around to be nice and cheery to us all.
Sorry that you had to be the recipient of that post but I really wish people would actually read what I write before flying off the handle and repeating the same mischaracterization of my posts on the the WoW/D&D comparison thingy.
You were like the fifth person to state the exact same counter-point to a point I never actually made.
Sorry if it came off too strong.
Minion: Template
This template may be applied to any creature.
The creature has one hit point. The creature gains improved evasion.
Insert OGL Here.
Add to Section 15: Minion Template Copyright the gods of the intraweb
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Interesting little bit of human psychology going on there.
Same thing going on about MMOs/computer gaming references. I have seen many, many a pro-4E post claim that 4E was not inspired of computer games any more than fantasy literature. Here we have a concrete, first-hand acknowledgment of the fact, and most seem to not take notice while other simply dismiss the fact altogether. Interesting moments of human psychology, really.
What I see here are multiple examples of "4E can do no wrong". That disturbs me just as much as people claiming that "4E is ze Armageddon!!1!" People might do that in the spirit of countering what they see as "inaccurate statements" that need to be addressed, but doing so by uttering equally extreme, if polar opposites, statements just makes the debate WORSE, not better, by firing up people on all sides of the illusory fence.
Same thing going on about MMOs/computer gaming references. I have seen many, many a pro-4E post claim that 4E was not inspired of computer games any more than fantasy literature. Here we have a concrete, first-hand acknowledgment of the fact, and most seem to not take notice while other simply dismiss the fact altogether. Interesting moments of human psychology, really.
What I see here are multiple examples of "4E can do no wrong". That disturbs me just as much as people claiming that "4E is ze Armageddon!!1!" People might do that in the spirit of countering what they see as "inaccurate statements" that need to be addressed, but doing so by uttering equally extreme, if polar opposites, statements just makes the debate WORSE, not better, by firing up people on all sides of the illusory fence.
Indeed ... 4E is not inspired any MORE by computer games than fantasy literature. That isn't to say inspired by neither ... it is to say inspired by both. A matter of degree, if you will.
There is a difference between taking inspiration and attempting simulation.
TBH, I see a lot less 4E can do no wrong than 4E can do no right, but I suppose that might be because I'm closer to the no wrong guys than the no right ones.
It seems a lot of the pro-4E side admit there are some things that are flawed in the game but still feel it is a more solid and well rounded game than many on the anti side give it credit for. I think everyone would be happier if we all just got along though.
I'm glad you're a pig's head again, the little girl avatar was creepy. :)
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Indeed ... 4E is not inspired any MORE by computer games than fantasy literature. That isn't to say inspired by neither ... it is to say inspired by both. A matter of degree, if you will.
There is a difference between taking inspiration and attempting simulation.
I totally agree. I wager that the anti-4E crowd wouldn't be content with ANY trace of computer gaming in a tabletop RPG. I think that's silly myself. I just think that acknowledging the evolution of D&D and its influences allows for a real debate: some people will like, others will dislike. After, that's just a matter of coming to terms with that.
TBH, I see a lot less 4E can do no wrong than 4E can do no right, but I suppose that might be because I'm closer to the no wrong guys than the no right ones.
Totally subjective, I can confirm. I had been on the "4E can do no right" side of things for a long time before I actually read the rules. I knew that the system would be sound. And it was. That's when I truly realized that what I was angry about wasn't anything about the system, the end result itself, but rather all the D&D sacred cows slaughtered in the process, sacred cows I love to play with, in most cases.
And don't get me started on the PR and firing of the fans. That one still makes me real angry.
All that said, I want to actually run/play 4E to see what it does in practice. I'm sure that it is an excellent system, but an excellent system geared towards a very specific game play.
I don't know if I'll ever fully bite into 4E. I know I'm never going to bite the DDI apple. The supplements... I don't know. What's certain, on the other hand, is that I'm going to run 1st ed./C&C again.
Same thing goes for Pathfinder RPG by the way. I going to buy Beta and support the adventure paths, that's for sure. Whether I actually embrace the system as my core D&D experience or stick to older versions of the game remains to be seen. I'm sure PRPG won't suck though, just like I was convinced 4E wouldn't suck in and by itself.
I'm glad you're a pig's head again, the little girl avatar was creepy. :)
Yeah. I thought the little girl avatar was really cool, but in the end, it didn't fit me very well. The pig face, however... ;-)
What's certain, on the other hand, is that I'm going to run 1st ed./C&C again.
What play style do you use when you run 1st ed./C&C games?
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What play style do you use when you run 1st ed./C&C games?
I'm not sure what you mean by play style, so I might be off the mark. Please give me the heads up if I haven't answered your question here.
I'm running AD&D with the DMG in hand. I actually make it a point of reading the 1st ed DMG again and again before I run 1st ed, because the ambiance depends a lot on Gary's words, eloquence, ambiance (I know, some will say "verbiage") provided throughout its pages.
So the games go with some classic dungeon and wilderness exploration, generally a sense of impending doom, a conspiracy between forces to identify going on behind the scenes, possibilities for role-playing interactions and investigations, lots of possible side-adventures and so on. I like to start designing my campaigns by taking some modules I like and blending them together (until they are totally unrecognizable, more often than not).
This time around, I'm thinking of running Gary's Castle Zagyg to come back to the source, perhaps with Castle Whiterock located in the same campaign area. Perhaps the area would be located south of Greyhawk, if I manage to find a copy of 1983's World of Greyhawk boxed set.
The game develops organically from there. That is, I know as a DM who the forces in presence in the region are. What areas are mysterious, cursed, or deserve to be explored. The PCs explore the region and pick on the trails that seem interesting to them. I precise the plot hooks between sessions, as they go. They can either go from adventure to adventure in a serial manner or bother to connect the dots and start to see a wider picture/conspiracy emerge, a la Temple of Elemental Evil, if you see what I mean. Whether they choose to deal with the Greater Evil is their choice. D&D being D&D, they of course usually do.
The big plus side to that sort of campaigning is that there's no railroad whatsoever. The downside is that you need players who actually want to knock at doors and won't just walk past everything without giving a second look. They need to be curious, interested, and want to take matters in their own hands. That's not always the case, but I usually make it clear before the first session is ever played. It usually leads to some sessions where no adventuring per se occurs, but rather character interactions and developments.
It's organic, really. As we play, I get to know the players more and more, if I don't know them before hand, and I handle the focus of the campaign according to what they like and want to play. That's not "my game", in that sense.
I could go on forever. Maybe in another thread somewhere, if you're interested?
Interesting little bit of human psychology going on there.Same thing going on about MMOs/computer gaming references. I have seen many, many a pro-4E post claim that 4E was not inspired of computer games any more than fantasy literature. Here we have a concrete, first-hand acknowledgment of the fact, and most seem to not take notice while other simply dismiss the fact altogether. Interesting moments of human psychology, really.
What I see here are multiple examples of "4E can do no wrong". That disturbs me just as much as people claiming that "4E is ze Armageddon!!1!" People might do that in the spirit of countering what they see as "inaccurate statements" that need to be addressed, but doing so by uttering equally extreme, if polar opposites, statements just makes the debate WORSE, not better, by firing up people on all sides of the illusory fence.
I did say 4th ed had some computer game influence in it but wasn't exactly inspired by it. I'm desigin my next 4th ed adventure tentativly titled "The Goblins Strike Back" The 1st one was called Goblin Warz. I think part 3 may be called Retuen of the Goblin and then I might do a prequal regarding the backstory of my world.
Part 1 The Phantom Dragonborn.
Part 2. The Dragonborn Wars
Part 3. Revenge of the Darzi
I have a nasty little encounter planned for my PCs who are now 2nd leve. Its a level 6 encounter with a Hobgoblin commander, some more Hobgoblins and some goblin minions. The 1st encounter will involve 16 Goblin minions raiding the house the PCs got as a reward from the Mayor. Its only a level 2 encounter and they should clear them out. Might have a 5 memebr party so then I can add 4 more minions (I have over 20 Goblin Skirmisher from the D&D minis line.....)
The Hobgoblin Commmander has 6 Gobbo minions and this time around I may have to pile on the lazer Cleric to teach her a lesson about healing PCs at inconvenient times.
Will the hobgoblin commander be the father of one of the PCs? ;P
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I did say 4th ed had some computer game influence in it but wasn't exactly inspired by it. I'm desigin my next 4th ed adventure tentativly titled "The Goblins Strike Back" The 1st one was called Goblin Warz. I think part 3 may be called Retuen of the Goblin and then I might do a prequal regarding the backstory of my world.
Part 1 The Phantom Dragonborn.
Part 2. The Dragonborn Wars
Part 3. Revenge of the DarziI have a nasty little encounter planned for my PCs who are now 2nd leve. Its a level 6 encounter with a Hobgoblin commander, some more Hobgoblins and some goblin minions. The 1st encounter will involve 16 Goblin minions raiding the house the PCs got as a reward from the Mayor. Its only a level 2 encounter and they should clear them out. Might have a 5 memebr party so then I can add 4 more minions (I have over 20 Goblin Skirmisher from the D&D minis line.....)
The Hobgoblin Commmander has 6 Gobbo minions and this time around I may have to pile on the lazer Cleric to teach her a lesson about healing PCs at inconvenient times.
LOL. How do I sign up and play?
LOL. How do I sign up and play?I did say 4th ed had some computer game influence in it but wasn't exactly inspired by it. I'm desigin my next 4th ed adventure tentativly titled "The Goblins Strike Back" The 1st one was called Goblin Warz. I think part 3 may be called Retuen of the Goblin and then I might do a prequal regarding the backstory of my world.
Part 1 The Phantom Dragonborn.
Part 2. The Dragonborn Wars
Part 3. Revenge of the DarziI have a nasty little encounter planned for my PCs who are now 2nd leve. Its a level 6 encounter with a Hobgoblin commander, some more Hobgoblins and some goblin minions. The 1st encounter will involve 16 Goblin minions raiding the house the PCs got as a reward from the Mayor. Its only a level 2 encounter and they should clear them out. Might have a 5 memebr party so then I can add 4 more minions (I have over 20 Goblin Skirmisher from the D&D minis line.....)
The Hobgoblin Commmander has 6 Gobbo minions and this time around I may have to pile on the lazer Cleric to teach her a lesson about healing PCs at inconvenient times.
IRL alot of people seem to want to play in my groups and I'm running a game at an upcoming tourne at the local university. My group is kinda odd. The archtypical nerdy/geeky/smelly D&D player won't last loing. One guy played with us once and he was annoting (cowardly thief who never backstabbed for starters). He got hit. If you're annoying in our group you get assaulted- its the rules going back to a high level 2nd ed game in 1995 where I awarded a player 10000xp to give one of the annoying players a dead arm. Shut him up good though.
In our defence we were young (16-17 or so)but the rule kinda remained for some reason and I turn 30 in a few weeks. Oh well guys never grow up. back then half the group was female but oh well.
Hi, thanks for your DMs view review!
I have a question though: What do you think of the Minion rules? Do you like them?
LOL... Whatcha say there Tharen? I think he likes the minions.