There might be some drow stuff coming up in Pathfinder. No promises. But MAYBE.
So, what makes you love the drow. You know, aside from the creuly, dark sexiness, white hair, and pointy ears. Where do you think they've been done right? What drow stuff in the past has pissed you off? What's your favorite drow city? Overall, what turns you on (or could turn you on) about the drow?
(By the by, what do you think drow eat?)
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I'd want them to remain dark, sinister, scary, seductive. Decadence and debauchery have become trademarks of Drow portrayals, as well as treachery and barely-restrained violence.
The association with spiders is pretty Lolth-specific, and might not have any place in Golarion. Eberron taking that sideways and associating them with scorpions was kinda cute, but felt forced, IMO. What's next, centipede-Drow? Giger-esque Bot-fly Drow who lay their eggs in paralyzed humans? Ugh.
Green Ronin's Plot & Poison had a fairly neat non-Lolth-centric race of Drow. They retained the matriarchal society, decadence, malice, etc. and by re-envisioning their evil goddess as a former elven goddess of destiny and the 'web of fate,' the author managed to preserve the association with spiders, without making the Drow goddess a 'demon-queen of spiders.' I love the idea of the goddess falling with the Drow, being twisted and warped as they are, wrapped up in her own 'webs' and unable to free herself from the self-fulfilling prophecy of her fall from grace.
[I also like the idea that this was more than just 'self-fulfilling,' that the future 'demon-queen of spiders' somehow reached back to her naive 'goddess of destiny' self and twisted her future visions to bring about her own 'birth'...]
On the other hand, the original Gygaxian write-up suggested that different Drow cultures might follow other demon-lords and ladies, and that Lolth was just one particular flavor. If he'd started with jungle-dwelling Drow who served Demogorgon and used Baboons as their holy animal, or Grazz't-worshippers who lived in secret among other communities, seducing and deceiving them into serving their dark lord, we'd have a completely different view of them today.
If they remain true to their original mechanical conception, the Drow would be the ultimate 'spoilers' (spells that make their foes blind, powerful poison on every weapon, spell resistance, treasure that doesn't work for non-Drow, and then disintegrates in sunlight!), seemingly designed to make the players HATE the DM for introducing them...
I'm not quite so enamored of those aspects. :) I'm pretty sure they can be 'scary' in-game without being meta-game 'scary.' Then again, when you've got players more terrified of a Rust Monster encounter than a Dragon, perhaps there is something to say for 'meta-game' scary.
One issue will be whether or not Drow are intended to eventually be available as playable races. If they are, then Spell Resistance and awesome stats need to be toned down to make them not significantly better than other LA+0 races. (Making them LA+Anything, IMO, is like saying 'don't play this, ever, we couldn't make it work.')
If the race is intended to remain nothing more than monsters, then add a reason to the flavor text why someone wouldn't want to play them. Have every Drow child's soul pledged to it's family's patron Demon lord or lady at birth, and the Drow grow up filled with terrible urges and lusts and rages, from the demon-taint that fills the void where a normal elf would have a soul. All of Dark Elven 'society' becomes a thin veneer of traditions and ritual courtesies, designed to keep the seething cauldron of hatred and backbiting at low ebb, lest all of Drow society be torn apart in an orgy of unrestrained violence. (Sort of like the average Vampire: the Masquerade party.)
Perhaps, to the utter horror of 'real elves,' Drow *are* the original fey-descended elvenkind. Unseelie to the core, the surface elves, weaker, less magical and more vulnerable to mystical forces, are the polluted 'thin-bloods' who have adapted to this world...
Alternately, Drow could be a little from column A and a little from column B. The vast numbers of dark elves one would meet in the course of an adventure are little more than dusky-skinned elves, mechanically. Their rulers, on the other hand, the 'nobles,' who have consorted with fiends for many generations, are a 'powerful race' with the LA+1 or LA+2 abilities, and some might even be 'strong-blooded' enough to have variations on the Fiendish or Half-Fiend templates!
The Drow would thus have castes, depending on birth. All would consider themselves vastly superior to surface elves, because they're conceited and supremacist that way, but only the nobles and heads of families would be 'pure-blooded' enough to have the benefits of their demonic ancestry. (The irony of the half-Drow/half-Fiends calling themselves 'pure-blooded' and those of mostly Drow blood 'thin-bloods,' would go unmentioned in polite society...)
(By the by, what do you think drow eat?)
According to the old Menzoberranzan boxed set, the 300,000 or so Drow in that city eat the meat of the Rothe that live on an island about 200 feet across. Assuming that the Rothe eat as little as goats, the island should be able to support about two of them.
So it seems that Drow eat... each other! And the females constantly produce large web-sacks full of squiggly succulent Drow babies out of nothing, themselves sustained on nothing but a diet of pure malice and spite.
Seriously though, if they are fiend-blooded, they might, like Outsiders, not *need* to eat (or at least eat very little, with less need for food the 'purer' their blood is). Alternately, the underworld of Golarion might have vast seas, teeming with blind cave fish, surrounded by 'forests' of edible fungus and fueled by underwater thermal vents, like the ecosystems that crop up deep under the sea in real-life.
http://www.seasky.org/deep-sea/hydrothermal-vents.html
Despite being miles below any surface oceans, the Drow might subsist heavily on seafood, all fed by the chemicals and sustained by the warmth of the geothermal vents.
As most fantasy worlds are teeming with unusual fauna and flora, a few types of underground life that thrive on geothermal energy instead of solar energy could be worked up.
There could even be life that thrives on *magical* energy, and Drow cities might have some edible fungus that weakens and 'eats' magic around it, but which the Drow consume in turn (or feed to other creatures, which they then eat). Fueled by cantrips, spell-like abilities, Faerie Fires and other low-powered sources of magic, these 'crops' grow like Brown Mold grows when exposed to heat, in sudden bursts as they consume the magic and cause the spells cast in the area to fizzle (within limits, large spells might just burn out the crop, while spells right on the cusp might cause Entangle-like growth!).
Innately magical races (such as those with Spell-like abilities, including other Drow!) might suffer some sort of draining effect from being in contact with the fungus, over time. Perhaps Drow get rid of other Drow who've pissed them off by tying them up and throwing them into the fields, where they lose Con pts every day as the fungus grows over them and pulls the magic right out of them as it also breaks down their body to use as fertilizer!
Magical means of providing food, such as Adepts using Purify Food & Drink to make the 'seaweed' and sludge from the underseas edible for the slaves, or nobles subsisting entirely on created food & drink, or even Called up creatures that are butchered and eaten, are also options to supplement other sources of food. Using Calling spells, a noble Drow 'party' might have an assortment of otherworldly foodstuffs, some only edible through magical Purification, and some dangerous (like Fogu) even after Purification!
The Rast is pleasantly tingly, seeming to 'pop' in your mouth, despite it's chewy texture, but stay away from the Chaos Beast fillets. There's 'risky' and then there's 'insane.' Larva would be popular, despite the bitter taste, oiliness and tough texture, because what Drow *wouldn't* get off on the notion that it's eating *someone's soul...*
Extra bonus points if you can capture the soul of a rival Drow-turned-Larva and carve slices out of it's wriggling hide in front of it's family at a party. Unkindest cut, indeed.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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My favorite thing about the drow is that they are so betrayal and backstabing prone with different factions vying for getting even a slight advantage over other factions, that they're an enemy that's ripe for interactions with and cooperation with even, other than simply fighting.
Just because the PCs infiltrate a drow city and stumble into a drow or group of drow doesn't mean it has to be a fight. Those drow can easily try to use the PCs as cat's paws to attack some other faction, or somehow further their plans. It also puts the PCs in a great moral dilemma - do they trust the drow making them an offer to work against some other group of drow, and even if they can be trusted, will helping them actually make things worse?
I also like that as a slave using race, there's another way for PCs to interact with drow cities. If they can infiltrate the slave population (or actually get captured and legitimately become slaves), they can in many ways wander about the city if they can convince/bluff that they're on some legitimate task for their owners.
As for drow diet:
Fungi
Lizard
Bat
Mole
Fungi eating herd animals (not sure if Rothe are OGL)
Surface Elves
Good aligned fey (the evil ones taste very bitter)
Gnomes (not Svnerneblin - they work too hard and have very stringy meat)
Drow they have betrayed (there's nothing sweeter than eating a refined foe)
Not on the drow diet:
Humans
Dwarves
Orcs
Goblinoids
Giants of all types
(all of these are dirty, filthy animals that aren't fit to consume)
So, what makes you love the drow? You know, aside from the creuly, dark sexiness, white hair, and pointy ears. Where do you think they've been done right?
They're not tree-huggin' hippy freaks. ;) Cruel, mean, calculating, haughty - everything that elves are, but with a malevolent streak.
What drow stuff in the past has pissed you off?
Their overuse and watering down to "an elf with dark skin." I like to picture drow so ruthlessly contempt of their elven ancestry that they go out of their way to spurn and mock it.
What's your favorite drow city?
Right now? Menzoberranzan is still my favorite.
Overall, what turns you on (or could turn you on) about the drow?
Making them evil again. Making them go out of their way to do contentious acts against others, just to prove they can. Make them revel in their difference from the surface dwellers. Make them master of their underground realms, bowing to no one except whom they choose to.
By the by, what do you think drow eat?
Each other, when they have a point to prove. ;) Aside from that, I imagine a great variety of vermin, fungi and more rarely, fresh meats. Maybe aquatic cave fish and amphibians. But what they eat would entirely depend on where they were situated - fresh water would certainly be a must for any decent sized settlement. They might treat themselves with create food and water.
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My real first exposure to fantasy gaming was the original Everquest, and so most of my first exposure to Drow was also through the game. Here's a quick hit list of what screas Drow/Dark Elf to me
Late-night color scheme. The cities had a lot of Blue, Indigo, Purple, the magical lighting was neon-like.
Politics! Lots and lots of politics. They are Lawful Evil and insular, so the biggest Drow enemy always has been and always should be other Drow. Not open conflict but courtly (Vampire: The Masquerade like) intrigue. Different houses always competing for the top.
Women with butt-less pants.
Matriarchal society.
There's been a general art style for Drow as of late (with the rise and prominence of Driz'zt especially) to draw them as gaunt. This mostly happens with the men, the men are all drawn arse-ugly and the women are all smoking hot. They have a + to charisma let's get some gender equality in there =p
I see Drow drinking red wines and eating small meals; mostly snacking on things like chocolate-covered insects. I can't imagine a Drow feast.
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I'm going to take the other side and approach this from a different angle.
I hate the Drow. No, I utterly loathe the Drow.
I don't put Drow in my campaigns, and if I used a purchased campaign with Drow, I re-write them in as something different. I think Drizzt is a waste of paper, and I wish the Spider Queen would just go in a hole and die.
I'm not 100% certain what it is that makes me feel this way, but I know for certain I think they're overused, cliche, and downright obnoxious when one gets down to it. I think a big part of it is that their society is downright near impossible to maintain. Nobody can rise to the degree of power they have (especially with the competing demands of Mind Flayers, Beholders, Durregar, and others) without working together on some level at least. With the amount of backstabbing and petty differences, you'd half expect the Drow to weed themselves out of the D&D gene pool fairly quickly when another united race shows up, but they're so beloved, nobody seems to want to write them that way. About the only thing that I even partially enjoy is the intrigue, which I think is just overdone as the writers try too hard to make them "evil."
So what do I love about the Drow? I like that they live in the Underdark. I like that the Underdark is a different environment with different rules than the surface. I like that the world is tough where they live and that they have to be tough too. Other than that, I think they're a writeoff.
Oh, and I'd love to see the Drow as a humanoid-cannibalistic society, with Elves as their favorite delicacy.
Some really fascinating stuff here guys, totally keep it coming! ^_^
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So, what makes you love the drow. You know, aside from the creuly, dark sexiness, white hair, and pointy ears. Where do you think they've been done right?
Basically, it's that they are evil. This is a group of monsters who live in the ground and come out to slaughter anyone that they can. They are manipulative, masochistic and just perfect for villains AND side villains.
They strike fear into players minds: Technically, you can give a kobold 12 levels of sorcerer and the players won't blink while he throws fireballs all over the battlefield. Give the same players a Drow with 10 levels of sorcerer and they are afraid that the wrong move will mean a poison, spider filled death.
What drow stuff in the past has pissed you off?
Drizzt-syndrome: The act where all the Drow characters made are have all of or at least 2 of the following characteristics:
1 - Male
2 - Chaotic Neutral/ Chaotic Good
3 - Tormented like a bad pop punk band
4 - Wielding two swords
The sad part is this has lead to almost a movement against this syndrome where the character much be as Drow like as possible, making them a man-hating crazy person who will poison the whole part and infest them with spiders by level 4. While that's what I love as a villain, for most games I prefer heroes to be a tad.... heroic.
Do I have an answer for either of these problems? Not really. The second situation comes from all the good parts and bad players. The first part is mostly like locking the barn door after the horse has become a dual wielding emo-ranger.
What's your favorite drow city?
I like the vault personally, but I also love just the idea of a drow city in general. Here's a chaotic evil enclave of darkness where all things Underdark are constantly trading glances and the odd slave. That's just the kind of awkward a Paladin needs.
(By the by, what do you think drow eat?)
Fungus, rivals, anyone that gets too close, spiders, gruel, bad slaves... I imagine that it's somewhat along the lines of being very bland with amazing mixes of textures that resemble meat and somehow scream when eaten (or writhe in pain, at the very least).
First Edition Fiend Folio Drow turn me on.
Forgotten Realms Drow turn me off.
Drow eat babies.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Some really fascinating stuff here guys, totally keep it coming! ^_^
Someone's doing their homework before setting to work on Endless Night, eh? So if I say they eat Spam, will it make it into the adventure? C'mon, you don't get much more chaotic evil than Spam!
Erithriel Cinlu, Eclavdra,and Draegloths. 'nuff said
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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I LOATHE the Salvatore drow. LOATHE.
That being said, if I was to love the drow, they'd need to be different. An entire society based on spiders ought to be pretty demented. Bloated mother-queens who spawn thousands of young. Different species of drow, each suited for a certain purpose: assassin, soldier, builder, food collector, nursemaids, ritualists. Entire cities built of solid webs. Cities suspended over impossibly deep pits. Insects as food. Larders of nothing but living creatures webbed and left to "ripen". Amoral killers all, with no qualms about anything, as long as it leads to the end they seek. Maybe even something like a colossal living city to which they all cling, that crawls along the dark places of the earth. Relentless, undaunted and ever hateful. The perfect evil society: that which isn't evil, merely efficient and amoral.
Just brainstorming. I'm sure whatever you come up with will be pretty darn cool.
So, what makes you love the drow. You know, aside from the creuly, dark sexiness, white hair, and pointy ears. Where do you think they've been done right? What drow stuff in the past has pissed you off? What's your favorite drow city? Overall, what turns you on (or could turn you on) about the drow?
I love the drow. I also like alternative interpretations of the drow.
Burok Torn: City Under Siege by Sword & Sorcery has a fascinating take on the drow, from their beginnings as staunch allies of dwarvenkind, to their betrayal by the dwarves (yes, that is correct!), to their current situation living in a moving underground city (!), scheming against the dwarves and attempting to find a way to elevate their deity to godhood again (he's been trapped in the body of an iron golem since the dwarves betrayal).
Easily one of the most fascinating re-imaginings I've read...
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The article in Paizo's first issue of Dragon (#298) on the Drow has always given me some good ideas. The idea of drow fetuses fighting and killing (and possibly eating) each other in utero till only one survived like some species of sharks was simultaneously the sickest and most brilliant idea I'd ever read about making drow biology truly different, evil, and alien. That, and the mothers getting a major thrill out of it while they fought.
Since it's out of Dragon, though, it's not really an option now, I guess. Maybe some other really odd biological processes can serve a similar purpose.
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Burok Torn: City Under Siege by Sword & Sorcery has a fascinating take on the drow, from their beginnings as staunch allies of dwarvenkind, to their betrayal by the dwarves (yes, that is correct!), to their current situation living in a moving underground city (!), scheming against the dwarves and attempting to find a way to elevate their deity to godhood again (he's been trapped in the body of an iron golem since the dwarves betrayal).
Easily one of the most fascinating re-imaginings I've read...
Heck yeah! In the Scarred Lands setting, Dark Elves weren't statistically much different from surface elves, but were associated with craft, artistry, stoneworking and *constructs.* Their god was a demipower of constructs, and they had golem-like servitor associations replacing the spider association. The dark elven *city* was an animate construct of monstrous size, creeping through the underground realms.
Dark Elven Monks sacrificed speed and grace for Barbarian-like Damage Reduction. A 'normal' Monk turned into a native Outsider, but the Dark Elven Monks were forging themselves into living Constructs, becoming creatures of stone and steel, like their god!
I don't think that notion would work as well with the demon-worshipping Drow of Golarion, but it was a great example of a radically non 'Spider Queen' tweak on Dark Elves.
On the other hand, each Demon Lord (or Lady) presents a new and fascinating variation on Drow.
Drow in service to Yeenoghu? Secret masterminds and 'masked priests' who work among the Gnollish tribes, whipping them up into assaults on the 'civilized races?'
Drow in service to Kotschie? Arctic banshees that howl in the night, descending upon snowbound villages and leaving only blood and fire and mystery, but no bodies, and certainly no witnesses, in their wake. think 30 Days of Night, but with dark elven demon-worshippers instead of vampires.
Drow in service to Orcus? Service beyond death, whether as a corpulent ghast or a gaunt wight.
I already mentioned the notion of Drow in service to Demogorgon, painted jungle-savages, training baboons to savor the taste of human flesh, or Drow in service to Grazz't, living in hiding among civilized folk, seducing and deceiving and corrupting them from within.
My real first exposure to fantasy gaming was the original Everquest, and so most of my first exposure to Drow was also through the game. [snip] Women with b!!@-less pants.
Yes! I made a Drow female Magician, and then went and camped up Gatorscale Leggings & Sleeves and a Frost Goblin Skin, so that I could have the black leather @$$-chaps. I'm not even ashamed of that. :)
Whatever else Drow are, they have to be sexy!
Set said...Unseelie to the core. That's what I'd like to see them more like - dark fey. Sort of Sluagh and not Drizzt [shudder].
I despise Salvator/Forgotten Realm novel drow. And I loathe beyond all reason any attempts to romanticize them. They're depraved demon-worshipping monsters.
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Personally I don't see much of a difference between Salvatore's drow and the originals. They kill eat other. They're decadent. And they deal and worship demons to no end. I prefer the matriarch society. Menzo is still my favorite drow place.
However, I don't like Drizzt syndrome in players. So no good drow please. I also do not like the idea of renegade drow males being tolerated, by anyone, for any reason. Drow breaking the matriarch structure and getting away with it is a bit silly.
As for what they eat... fungus, mushrooms, some kind of underground cow creature.
Someone's doing their homework before setting to work on Endless Night, eh? So if I say they eat Spam, will it make it into the adventure? C'mon, you don't get much more chaotic evil than Spam!
Eat... Spam... ::scribble, scribble::. Okay, got it. What else? :P
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The problem with mold-breakers like Drizz't and Jarlaxle is that they only work once. Even a second similar character turns it from an exception into a core element. Drizz't moreso since he turns "drow are evil" from an openly-accepted law into a matter of preference, also opening a door for any of the "always evil" races to have a "Drizz't" exception as a PC. The idea of a male renegade drow who flaunts the system but is so well connected (even with forces outside matriarchal control, like duergar or mind flayers) that all the rulers can do is seethe, is excellent and throws a touch of spice into the situation. The first time. After that there may as well be as many rival male-led guilds as female-led houses. So stepping really carefully around mold-breakers like these is the key. Maybe just one, certainly not as a PC, but be sure to change some stuff from the norm, or there's no reason not to just use standard FR-Drow or your own homebrew-Drow.
I'm not sure if this is fixable, but it's always been embarrassing that the one major black-skinned humanoid race is evil. As I mentioned previously, when I played a drow, I'd periodically turn to PCs who disagreed with my character and say: "It's because I'm black, isn't it?"
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I'm not sure if this is fixable, but it's always been embarrassing that the one major black-skinned humanoid race is evil. As I mentioned previously, when I played a drow, I'd periodically turn to PCs who disagreed with my character and say: "It's because I'm black, isn't it?"
On the other hand I don't think it comes across too badly in Golarion, since the real-world inspirations have resulted in humans that run the whole gamut of skin colour with none of them being depicted as particularly evil... I'd be far more likely to think of the Mwangi Expanse if I thought of black races in Golarion, Drow are too esoteric. But then I guess a big part of that's interpretation, given I personally think racism is such an idiotic thing, and it's not something I've encountered much in life, I don't tend to see it in indirect things such as Drow being black-skinned, thus I don't feel embarrassed about it...
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So, what makes you love the drow. You know, aside from the creuly, dark sexiness, white hair, and pointy ears. Where do you think they've been done right? What drow stuff in the past has pissed you off? What's your favorite drow city? Overall, what turns you on (or could turn you on) about the drow?
Well, I just finished running Mongoose's Drow War campaign. It was tough when RotRL was sitting there on the shelf playing creepy banjo music and violating all my other campaigns but I made my Will save and got through to the end.
Now their drow were a lot more LE than the usual CE that drives most drow campaigns. Indeed, Mongoose's advice was to think of 1940s Berlin for how to play the drow, and that worked a treat. That didn't stop them from being devious and sneaky and my players took great delight in working out all their schemes and thwarting them at every turn.
I think the key to that was keeping the drow fresh. In a 30 part campaign, the drow really only featured in about 8 or 9 episodes. Throw in some other drow who claimed (truthfully) to have rejected the beliefs of the other drow (the party didn't believe them) and the party ended up not knowing who to trust (and they loved it!).
Essentially the drow were the puppet masters behind most of what was going on but the party didn't get to fight them most of the time. Occasionally they'd stumble across a drow agent but a lot of the time, the drow were working behind the scenes.
Part of the problem with the drow was that they had poor hit points, poor AC and didn't do an awful lot of damage in hand-to-hand combat. Their tactics relied on their wizards being protected for long enough to use their best spells but drow guards weren't up to the task. The only time we had a close fight was right near the end of the campaign when the 27th level party fought a group of 28-30th level drow commanders.
In conclusion, the drow were an excellent sneaky, behind-the-scenes villain but I struggled to put together many challenging combats against them. In Second Darkness, I think they'll need an enslaved race of guards/cannon fodder to give their spellcasters a chance to shine. And play up the treachery and different factions. When the party don't know who to trust, they seem to love it!
I think drow should be absolutely white and pale. Perhaps slightly translucent, with dark blood in their thin veins. They should look like something bleached from a few millenia without the sun. Black drow are a habit, and carry a wealth of associations. You did it for bugbears. Do it for drow. I know the art is already done. Too late for such a change.
I think the drow should eat whatever contains protein. Those that please the priests could recieve better rations, and magically created food.
I think the drow should have an early phase, as they grow up, where they are left absolutely free. Elders watch them, to see what they do, and who they are, then train them in their talents, like the soviets did to children who showed promise.
I think the drow should be convinced of the rightness of their cause. They should believe in the authorities, and in the great injustice done to them. They should be implacable, because they see themselves as victims.
I think the drow should have a society based on duty, as a dark mirror of human and elf society. Let them be admirable, hateful and bitter.
I would use phenomena like the Khmer Rouge, North Korea, Stalinist Russia and fundamentalist religious fanaticism to build the drow. Make them the heroes of their own play, doing what they feel forced into doing, until their rightful lebensraum is returned to them.
Drow children gleefully report their parents for lack of piety. Large propoganda posters in beautiful needlepoint, flutter in magical breezes. Groups of drow troop silently through museums that reinforce the doctrine of the dark.
Drow could turn to devils in the vain hope that they can use them as tools, then discard them when they claim the world of plenty.
Nothing is as hard to defeat as a group convinced of the rightness of their cause.
Competition could be enforced by culls and decimations. There is not enough food. There is nothing but centuries of longing, grief, envy, obedience and hate.
Make them orwellian, and patriotic.
Edit: one more idea.
The elders of drow society could be given serial immortality, by being magic jarred into young bodies. Drow who are weak, or fail, are drained of their soul, and the husk is used as a vessel by one of the leaders of their society.
Edit: one more:
Drow society could be built on a well crafted lie about the surface races. Only the most dedicated and patriotic are allowed on missions to the surface, and then are watched by "party officers" for signs of weakness and confusion. Those who look too closely at what the surface really is, are dangerous, as they disturb the focus on hate and justice that drives the society.
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I think drow should be absolutely white and pale. Perhaps slightly translucent, with dark blood in their thin veins. They should look like something bleached from a few millenia without the sun. Black drow are a habit, and carry a wealth of associations. You did it for bugbears. Do it for drow. I know the art is already done. Too late for such a change...
I love this take on Drow, and I may play this, as well as what follows into my next campaign:
Drow are Elves who have feasted on the flesh of dead Gods, forever tainted, and strengthened by their deed.
The Drow worship none but themselves, for they too contain the power of Gods from their ancestor's actions. It is equally important that no Drow weed out the weak, but support the strong in order to keep their divine bloodline as pure as possible.
The society is entirely theological, but not in the traditional sense, they worship the relics of their ancestors, left over bits of the Gods they once consumed. When one becomes a priest of the order, they too consume more of this Godflesh (or when needed Demon or Devil flesh).
Drow do not disbelieve in Gods, Demons, Devils, and the like, but they are more interested in capturing another to increase their own power than they are worhshipping such undeserving creatures.
Hmmm...this might have something...
Drow are Elves who have feasted on the flesh of dead Gods, forever tainted, and strengthened by their deed.Drow do not disbelieve in Gods, Demons, Devils, and the like, but they are more interested in capturing another to increase their own power than they are worhshipping such undeserving creatures.
Hmmm...this might have something...
Excellent origin.
Aroden kebabs with shhitake mushrooms and cream of rothe sauce.
Well, after the advice above, I went and bought the Burok Torn: City Under Siege PDF for $5, and while I was at it, I snatched Hollowfaust: City of Necromancers for a $5 bargain as well.
Gotta love cheap PDFs!!!
Nice haircut. It has a hole in it. Better not use national health scissors on those PDFs if you don't want to have things go all pear-shaped.
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Eat... Spam... ::scribble, scribble::. Okay, got it. What else? :P
No! Think of the poor spamelopes!
Random question. What Demon Lords does Golarion use? Are Demogorgon, Grazz't, Baphomet, Yeenoghu, Zuggtmoy, etc. available, or are new ones being used?
'Cause I could go on for hours developing Demogorgon or Yeenoghu or Baphomet-worshipping Drow communities...
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Eat... Spam... ::scribble, scribble::. Okay, got it. What else? :PNo! Think of the poor spamelopes!
Random question. What Demon Lords does Golarion use? Are Demogorgon, Grazz't, Baphomet, Yeenoghu, Zuggtmoy, etc. available, or are new ones being used?
'Cause I could go on for hours developing Demogorgon or Yeenoghu or Baphomet-worshipping Drow communities...
Ones that have public domain names may be used. Graz'zt is definitely out unfortunately, but Dagon is probably in.
Other ones we know of already are Lamashtu and there's one Trolls worship I forget the name of. It's in Classic Monsters Revisited
I really think some element of the Drow in-fighting should be preserved. You certainly can have a competitive and dominant group that has noble families at each other's throats. Whenever they have an external threat, they unite. When that threat recedes, they're back at the in-fighting. The key is to manage the severity of the in-fighting. I think the Vault of the Drow had a good balance going between noble houses, fighting societies capable of suppressing the houses when they get too out of line, the priesthood, and the merchant clans, all capable of working on their own interests and thus making it very hard for any single group to dominate.
Plus, with factions, you get commoner drow adherents to each faction so brawls can erupt at a moment's notice. That makes the environment interesting to adventure in and it means that PCs may have groups they can deal with that aren't automatically going to turn them in to the highest authorities. I think that can be an important consideration to make adventures a bit more playable without the PCs having to be completely covert (which is very hard for paladins to do). If the setting is too Orwellian and totalitarian, you may get underground movements, but they are hard for outsiders to contact and dealings pretty much must be covert. Open factionalism is easier to work with.
Drow are Elves who have feasted on the flesh of dead Gods, forever tainted, and strengthened by their deed.
Kind of a wendigo mythology in that, isn't there?
Well, after the advice above, I went and bought the Burok Torn: City Under Siege PDF for $5, and while I was at it, I snatched Hollowfaust: City of Necromancers for a $5 bargain as well.
Gotta love cheap PDFs!!!
Burok Torn is one of my favorite books just for the fluff. I hope my recommendation works for you and you love it as much as I do.
I have Hollowfaust but haven't read that one yet, although the premise is exciting.
And yes, you gotta love cheap PDFs!
So, what makes you love the drow. You know, aside from the creuly, dark sexiness, white hair, and pointy ears. Where do you think they've been done right? What drow stuff in the past has pissed you off? What's your favorite drow city? Overall, what turns you on (or could turn you on) about the drow?
(By the by, what do you think drow eat?)
What I loved most about the Gygaxian drow is their manipulativeness (manipulativity?) - they were the ones backing the giants' incursions into human lands, the slavers, etc. I always got the impression that they were behind the scenes manipulating numerous major world-altering events on the surface and were likely to have their hands in all number of plots to weaken the surface world and at the same time strengthen themselves in preparation for an all-out assault on the lands above. From what I've heard about Second Darkness, I'm not likely to be disappointed as this trend continues.
I also really like the idea of associating them more intimately with the unseelie court and working up the fey aspect of the drow. There is a LOT of room to play there that has not been documented to death (unlike just about every major demon lord) and really plays into their elven heritage. If Second Darkness went this direction, I would get major wood.
For a fantastic interpretation of drow, talk to anyone who has read the (clicky link) Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy by Williams wherein the drow depart from the elves and move to the far, far north of the world (instead of underground) to embrace the cold and darkness. And much like the title of the next adventure path, their goal is to bring upon the world a second darkness, blotting out the sun with snow and ice. Additionally, they end up being the manipulators behind one of the most horrifying betrayals (and greatest plot twists) ever in fantasy literature.
As to what they eat, I agree with yoda8myhead that they most likely eat a pressed mixture of spiced meats (of dubious origin), fungus, and fat that has been intensely salt-cured for preservation and can sustain a body for days on end. Think pemmican from days of yore, the precursor to Spam. =o)
Shannon
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There are a lot of demon lords involved with Golarion. Partially because I'm A) the editor-in-chief and B) obsessed with demons.
So far, I believe I've isolated about 30 demon lords in all that have active cults or interests in the Pathfinder Chronicles campaign setting. We list many of these in the Hardcover, and Pathfinder #18 will have an 8 or so page article about them. The drow themselves worship a specific pantheon of 12 demon lords; I'll probably whip them up as a blog post or something in a month or two, but I can say this: Nocticula is among them. It's a somewhat different incarnation of Nocticula from the one in The Book of Fiends (the flavor in that book isn't open content, so we can't really use that incarnation anyway); in Golarion, she actually IS the patron of succubi; she's also the patron of assassins and shadows. We do retain her incestuous relationship with Socothbenoth, though. (Which also means Socothbenoth is also one of the 12 demon lords drow worship.)
In any case, of the 30 or so I've got so far, I'd say roughly a third are familiar names to D&D fans (like Pazuzu, Baphomet, and Orcus), about a third will be familiar names to occultisim fans (like Dagon, Abraxus, and Haagenti), and about a third will be new to everyone (like Cyth-V'sug, Deskari, and Zura).
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Well, you gotta have at least one succubus queen. I just liked how, in Book of Fiends, they didn't just make Nocticula more of the same. She still had a decidedly female portfolio, but wasn't yet another seductress.
Ah. Well... she's got some seducing going on... but she's a lot more violent than slinky, really. Nocticula's like Malcanthet but with ninja levels, I guess... so she's not just all about succubi. Socothbenoth's more of the seducer paragon in Golarion's demon lord pantheon.
So Orcus will be in Golarion? I coulda sworn I read something about him not being around...
Yup; he's in Golarion... but he's not one of the more active demon lords in Golarion. As far as undead go... the demon queen of vampires and cannibalism, Zura, has a lot more going on than Orcus. This is mostly because Orcus is such a big "player" in other game worlds (be they WotC's or the Necromancer Games products or Ghostwalk, etc.) that he's already got plenty of attention. That said... we're not shutting him out.
There's also a demon lord of ghouls and graves or something like that too... I forget his name off the top of my head, but it's a good one!
There are a lot of demon lords involved with Golarion. Partially because I'm A) the editor-in-chief and B) obsessed with demons.
You too? Except for the Editor-In-Chief part. Good job on the Demonomicon of Iggwilv. They remain my favorite articles in the last four years or so.
In any case, of the 30 or so I've got so far, I'd say roughly a third are familiar names to D&D fans (like Pazuzu, Baphomet, and Orcus), about a third will be familiar names to occultisim fans (like Dagon, Abraxus, and Haagenti), and about a third will be new to everyone (like Cyth-V'sug, Deskari, and Zura).
Well, I'm already looking forward to issue 18 when it hits my mailbox. Don't keep me and us waiting. I may just have to flush out my own write-ups of Decca and Sekholah.
So, what makes you love the drow. You know, aside from the creuly, dark sexiness, white hair, and pointy ears. Where do you think they've been done right? What drow stuff in the past has pissed you off? What's your favorite drow city? Overall, what turns you on (or could turn you on) about the drow?
(By the by, what do you think drow eat?)
As a DM, I was first exposed to the drow in the original AD&D modules D1-3. This was where I first learned to love, and my players learned to hate and fear, the drow. I loved the various factions, the worshippers of the Elder Elemental Eye, tentacle rods, and wands of viscous globs. Even now, despite all the Forgotten Realms glam, my favorite drow city remains Erelhei-Cinlu.
I think where the drow went sour on me were the portrayals of them in the various novels. I prefer my dark elves to be smart and subtle rather than willing to commit mass suicide at the behest of Lolth-obsessed matriarchs that seem to have permanent PMS. Why risk your own neck destroying the surface world when you can convince bands of giants to do the dirty work for you? That way you can reap the benefits and stay in the eerie beauty of your subterranean city, practicing whatever foul religous or secular passions you may enjoy.
As for food, I think the drow eat just about anything to which their twisted appetites attract them. Perhaps some drow have taken a liking to brains after engaging in trade with illithids. A noble house might have its own stable of halfling breeding stock, because thier young, when properly fattened and kept from exertion, make for tender, delicious fare.
Oh, and I'd love to see the Drow as a humanoid-cannibalistic society, with Elves as their favorite delicacy.
I could definitely see this.
A couple of years back, someone posted a link on a message board to an article about a custom in some remote parts of South China. Apparently they hang up live dogs and beat them before slaughter, believing that fear improves the flavor of the meat. It's easy to get indignant about the mistreatment of animals we consider pets, but consider the geese that are force-fed until their livers are ten times normal size (fois gras), or the veal calves who endure short, cramped, miserable lives in the American midwest. If humans IRL can treat "lesser creatures" with such cruelty and cavalier disregard--and we do--imagine what customs the drow might follow, and what they might consider a delicacy.
I wrote three novels, a novella, and three or four short stories about a Forgotten Realms drow. Liriel was a monster and she knew it, but she was sidetracked from conventional drow behavior by her fun-loving nature and her strong sense of curiosity. Becoming a "good drow" was never on her agenda; she adopted new approaches not so much because she believed they were right, but because her human companion believed them to be right. As time went on she got in the habit of struggling against her natural impulses, but she never lost sight of what she was.
I'm pretty fond of Liriel, but I wouldn't want to see a similar approach taken with Golarian drow. One good drow (Drizzt) was interesting because he was a societal anomaly, two (Liriel) was pushing it. It seems unlikely to me that a good drow will arise in Golarian simply because the comparison to Drizzt would be inevitable. This, on the whole, is a good thing.
It's my opinion that Golarian's drow should remain monsters: powerful, mysterious, conniving, devious, and more than a little sadistic. No good drow gods, no secret society of good-aligned drow, no ebony-skinned maidens dancing neckid under the wistful, watching stars. I'd like to see a culture that's distinctly different from Menzoberrazan. I'd definitely like to see a history that adds layers of nuance to the elf/drow animosity, and perhaps explores why drow decided to go underground rather than escape to another plane.
I think what I liked best about Liriel was her practice of wizardry, rather than sticking with tradition and becoming a priestess. She followed her natural talents and inclinations. It fit well with the chaotic element of drow society (not to mention putting a feather in the proverbial cap of her uncle...it's not often a male gets to give the matriarchy a come-uppance.)
That's always been one of the head-scratchers for me. For a CE society, there sure are a lot of unbreakable rules in place.
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That's always been one of the head-scratchers for me. For a CE society, there sure are a lot of unbreakable rules in place.
That was one of the changes I liked for 3e. Drow are NE in 3.X, not CE. A LE society and framework of noble houses, all under the thumbs of the matron mothers, keeping the CE frenzy in the heart of every drow just barely in check.
As for food, I think the drow eat just about anything to which their twisted appetites attract them. Perhaps some drow have taken a liking to brains after engaging in trade with illithids. A noble house might have its own stable of halfling breeding stock, because thier young, when properly fattened and kept from exertion, make for tender, delicious fare.
I like the idea that they only eat certain parts of their slave stock as delicacies, then turn the mutilated victim out to hard labor. Maybe they only eat human eyeballs in mushroom sauce, (leading to a population of blind human slaves used as masseurs, weavers, or maybe just target practice), or only the noses of gnomes or the hands of dwarves.
I wrote three novels, a novella, and three or four short stories about a Forgotten Realms drow. Liriel was a monster and she knew it, but she was sidetracked from conventional drow behavior by her fun-loving nature and her strong sense of curiosity. Becoming a "good drow" was never on her agenda; she adopted new approaches not so much because she believed they were right, but because her human companion believed them to be right. As time went on she got in the habit of struggling against her natural impulses, but she never lost sight of what she was.
I'm pretty fond of Liriel, but I wouldn't want to see a similar approach taken with Golarian drow. One good drow (Drizzt) was interesting because he was a societal anomaly, two (Liriel) was pushing it. It seems unlikely to me that a good drow will arise in Golarian simply because the comparison to Drizzt would be inevitable. This, on the whole, is a good thing.
It's my opinion that Golarian's drow should remain monsters: powerful, mysterious, conniving, devious, and more than a little sadistic. No good drow gods, no secret society of good-aligned drow, no ebony-skinned maidens dancing neckid under the wistful, watching stars. I'd like to see a culture that's distinctly different from Menzoberrazan. I'd definitely like to see a history that adds layers of nuance to the elf/drow animosity, and perhaps explores why drow decided to go underground rather than escape to another plane.
Sorry for a small side track. I'm glad to see you're going to part of Pathfinder. I love your work. That said, I still have to tell you, I'm still mad you killed Fyodor. :p
There might be some drow stuff coming up in Pathfinder. No promises. But MAYBE.
So, what makes you love the drow. You know, aside from the creuly, dark sexiness, white hair, and pointy ears. Where do you think they've been done right? What drow stuff in the past has pissed you off? What's your favorite drow city? Overall, what turns you on (or could turn you on) about the drow?
(By the by, what do you think drow eat?)
I think that the drow have never been allowed to reach their full potential of evil. I would like to see more of a Melneibone society from Elric. A race that would play symphonies with the screams of tortures slaves. A race of pure excess and sexual sadisim. Mongooses had a good take on Drow, but the game of bones was impractical in game play. This would be a place that I would like to see Nick Logue turned loose to rake up the darkest parts of his mind. I'm just not sure you would be able to print the outcome.
I wrote three novels, a novella, and three or four short stories about a Forgotten Realms drow.
You're that Elaine Cunningham? Your book Elfshadow was the first D&D fiction book I ever read! I was surprised to find out most of the D&D books weren't very good. Reading your work first spoiled me.
I wrote three novels, a novella, and three or four short stories about a Forgotten Realms drow.You're that Elaine Cunningham? Your book Elfshadow was the first D&D fiction book I ever read! I was surprised to find out most of the D&D books weren't very good. Reading your work first spoiled me.
Glad to hear you enjoyed Elfshadow, but sorry to hear that you've had trouble finding other D&D books that worked for you. There are a lot of good ones, so don't get discouraged too easily! :)
But I don't want to hijack the thread. Back to the drow. . . .
Ever notice that Drow coloring is very similar to that of a smurf?
Ok, on a more serious note, I really, really love the Mordedhel from Feist's Midkemia. Granted they are surface dwellers, more like Evil Wild Elves than Drow, but they are great. One of the things I like about the Mordredhel is that some of them hear a calling and leave their kind and to join the good elves who welcome them with open arms.
One day they wake up, pack for a journey and flee. When they hearken to the call of the elf queen they actually physically change into a normal elf. The Mordredhel don't try to reconcile with an elf who has changed, they kill them and hate them above all other elves.
In my eyes this would work quite well with the Golarian Drow who split from the normal elves during the cataclysm. I also think it would quite effectively eliminate the whole drizzt hate because Drow turned good would become normal elves.