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I agree with many of his points too.
I’ve written this and re-written the following five times so far, and each time my opinion of the new D&D 4e Players’ Handbook has got steadily worse.
But first, the good stuff.
4e is great. I love the whole idea of Powers. I like the new Classes, and am even starting to give the Dragonborn some love. Combat is cooler too. While combat encounters will take the same amount of time as one from Third Edition, the characters take more turns, quicker - so it feels faster. That’s a Very Good Thing! Yups, there’s a lot to like about 4th Edition. Give it a few years to supplant my 3e supplement collection, and it’ll be terrific.
But.
The Players’ Handbook is a train wreck.
I mean that both metaphorically and…. uhhh….. more metaphorically. It’s a train wreck because it’s a mess, but also just like a train wreck all of the important trainy parts are there, just strewn all over the place in a very untrainlike fashion. There’s bits of engine where you expect the driver’s compartment to be, the wheels are 300 yards away from their natural location (assuming trains were natural, and they’re not) and the driver is… well, let’s not talk about the driver. It’s better that way.
Ok, enough of the metaphor. I’m sure you get the idea.
Hmmmm. I ought to put in a disclaimer about now, and a little explanation. I’ve RPG’d for roughly as long as RPG’ing has existed as a hobby. I’ve played a metric shedload of different games that all promise to be the next big thing - some of which were, most of which weren’t. I’m no more tied to 3rd Edition than I was to Rolemaster, HERO, GURPS, Bunnies & Burrows or pretty much anything else that’s crossed my path along the way. I certainly don’t think that change is always a good thing, but it’s frequently necessary. When it comes, evolution is almost always better than revision by a completely different design team. Compare Classic Traveller with Traveller:The New Era if you want proof.
In short, I’m not some 3e grognard fanboi who doesn’t like 4e just because. Heck, I do like it. But I don’t like the PHB. Here’s why.
Top level, the PHB ticks all the boxes - there’s a rather spiffy introduction, chapters of Character Generation, Races, Classes, Feats, Skills, Combat and more. It’s great to see magic items in the PHB too, emphasising further the the PHB is the go-to rulebook whether you’re generating characters at 1st level or 25th.
What is there is so poorly referenced, badly structured and just downright lacking that it’s beyond a joke. When you’re seeing commenters on other reviews suggesting using sticky tabs to mark pages like that’s a good thing (no, you’re fixing what’s broken!) or that it gets easier to find things with practise. Well, duh. That’s true whatever the system, no matter how good or bad it is.
One of the important parts of any rulebook is that it has to be easy to find stuff. This game needs a Glossary, bad. It needs a bigger, better index. The one-page index is already a joke among my players. In comparison, the 3.5e PHB has a damned good 3 page index and 11 page glossary. That’s 14 whole pages of frickin’ useful in-game essential goodness missing from the 4e PHB. My impressions are that the PHB designers spent so long congratulating themselves for making such an awesome game, they forgot to actually write the damned thing. Ah well.
Also, the Powers are completely and utterly all over the place, and - get this - they're not listed in the Index!!!!. FFS people, what’s so wrong with putting all of the Powers in a chapter together in alphabetical order then using page references and lists when needed. That’s how Skills and Feats works, after all! The number of times my players have played Hunt The Power in the PHB already is beyond a joke. If you can’t even get this right, give us a f%$&ing index. It’s not too much to ask.
The Character Class chapter is a joke. It’s over 120 pages long, of which 80% is a listing of Powers sorted (if you could call it that) by class and level. That’s ok-ish when you’re generating a Fighter, but less than friendly when you’re mid-game and want to double check a Range. What would have been so wrong with having a Character Class chapter containing, y’know, Character Classes and putting another Chapter listing all the Powers? Jeez.
When it comes to actually creating characters, Chapter Two is just as messy as it tries to serve double duty explaining how to play the game and the steps involved generating a character at the same time. Not good, not good at all. Separate and inform first, then provide the means. It’s no good showing Powers with damage calculations when they’re not explained until much later in the book. Why the heck this book was allowed out in it’s current structure, gawd only knows.
Then there’s Powers.
Powers are the single most significant change to the game. They grant abilities to every class which are usable at-will, per encounter or daily. Every class gets 2 at-will, 1 encounter and 1 daily Power at first level (the Wizard inconguously gets 2 dailies but has to select which one to use each day), but there’s so f%$~ing few of them to choose from it’s laughable. Look, if you’re going to offer a whole new meta-game system, jump in with both feet.
Here’s a quick head-to-head.
1st level Cleric in 3e can pick from a total of 37 0- and 1st level spells, using just the Core Rules alone, plus their Domain spell. A 4e Cleric chooses 2 at-wills from - get this - 4 Powers then has 4 each of encounter and daily Powers to pick 1 each. That’s 12 in total of which they get 4 (5 if Human). It’s the same story for all of the other Classes - there’s just nowhere near enough Powers in the book. As a Core Rule book if should have easily double the number of Powers, right there and ready to use.
Here’s the thing. Restructure the book and remove duplicated Powers and you’ll have room for more. Take out the page-and-a-half double spread artwork at the beginning of each chapter and you get back 15 whole feckin’ pages. With an average of 10 Powers per page, that’s one hundred and fifty new Powers in the same pagecount we’ve got now, just by taking out the spurious padding artwork.
Then there’s Rituals. And frankly, I don’t know why they bothered.
Rituals are kinda like Powers except they take longer to use, might have a longer duration and cost cold hard cash to use. Oh, and they’re tucked right at the back of the book (y’know, where the damned glossary should go!!) like the embarassing afterthought they are. Here’s a thought. Instead of tacking another mechanic into the mix, why not just make ‘em Powers that are usable per week, per month or whatever. This means they could go into that Powers chapter that’s missing, meaning more room for more Powers as there’s no need for a crappy explanation for a crappy subsystem.
I reckon with restructuring, loss of spurious artwork, duplicates and the rules for Rituals there’d be room for at least another 250 Powers - that’s 30 per Class. Perfect.
Sure, I know that the limited number of Powers is designed to get us to buy more books from Wizards tofill in the gaps, but here’s the thing. I'm not stupid. The 3e PHB contained hundreds of spells, yet I still bought the Spell Compendium when that came out because it’s a great product. I’m not gonna buy more Wizards’ stuff just to patch up existing holes in the game that have been put there intentionally. This isn’t Shareware where you’re offered a crippled version of the product to tempt you to buy the full product. I bought the book, so don’t short-change me dammit!
If PHB II is going to contain Powers from sources other than Arcane, Divine and Martial, filling up the holes left by the loss of the Barbarian, Bard and Monk in the PHB then it’s going to be a while before we get access to the number of Powers that should have been in the PHB in the first place. Sheesh.
As an aside - I don’t mind the loss of those three classes much, really. What’s annoying is that there aren’t enough Powers to be able to simulate them effectively with the existing Classes as a stop-gap. Give me Powers right in the PHB geared toward Unarmed combat, Raging and some Divine music-based Powers and I’d be a happier man.
Going down to the nitty-gritty of the rules themselves we’ve not played enough to take it apart sufficiently to comment much, but a few things stand out.
If you’ve played as long as I have, Page 38 couldn’t have shouted out more if it was circled in red and triggered a siren when opened. That’s the page for the Eldarin Race and contains the dreaded Fey Step Power. I know I’ve ranted about this before, but I’ll briefly explain why it’s so broken and why it has to be nerfed to being a Daily Power, immediately.
In short, Fey Step is a 25’ teleport ability usable once per encounter. They sounds all fine and cool on paper, but it’s a Very Bad Thing Indeed. Per Encounter Powers can be used at most once every 5 minutes. That’s 288 times per day. See the problem yet? Even if you enforce 8 hours of sleep, every Eldarin character could teleport up to 192 times per day. Do the math. In comparison, a 3rd Edition Wizard could cast Dimension Door (it’s nearest (but longer ranged) equivalent) once per day - when he reaches 7th level.
192 (or 288) times per day at 1st level, compared to once at 7th level. Oh, please.
That Fey Step means you can’t put your Eldarin in jail. You can’t have them stuck at the bottom of a pit trap. You can’t have a corridor blocked by a 20’ chasm. You can’t….. awe heck, I’m sure you get the idea. If you end up needing to meta-game around a given Power, that Power is broken. Changed to being a Daily Power it’s acceptable as this puts the choice back onto the player - do they use their Fey Step now, or save it for later? That’s tactical, and less open to abuse.
The equipment list is very limited too, lacking several of the core essentials for any dungeon adventure. Where’s the 10’ poles (personally, I prefer quarterstaves anyhow) and flasks of oil? And why the heck is a Rapier not on the list of Proficiencies for Rogue when they’re entire Power style is based upon swashbuckling? Heck, they can use Piercing Strike and Riposte Strike, but only have melee proficiencies with dagger and shortsword. What gives?
Finally, many of the 3e combat Feats have translated to 4e Powers meaning they’re locked to a certain class and only accessible through use of a multi-class Feat. That’s a fiddly mechanism when all you want to do is to let your Paladin use Cleave! There should be a group of General Powers which are open to all, regardless of Class provided the level requirements are met.
Overall, my impression of the PHB is that we’re being short-changed. The poor layout and structure means there’s just not enough Powers to make character generation sufficiently flexible. The gaps in the equipment list and downright useless Rituals section just don’t help what should be a showcase book for a darned good game.
The crazy thing is that Wizards’ should be able to make this a stunning product. They’ve certainly got the experience and people who can do this, because they've done it before. The Star Wars RPG contains the entire system in one book covering one of the most iconic settings of all time complete with new-player friendly (and GM useful!) starting character templates. d20 Modern is another one-book system that’s pure brilliance. Surely they could have made a better D&D PHB than this.
Apparently not.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I actually like the 3/4 spread chapter openers, so that part of the review struck me as akin to the luddite request to print books with no art so we can fit more words in. Not sympathetic to that approach.
I haven't had a chance to read my PH yet, so I can't really speak to the rest of the review.
the fey step jumped out at me as well. Smaller fonts would have went along way to adding stuff...keeping the magic items in the PHB would have helped to.
the fey step jumped out at me as well. Smaller fonts would have went along way to adding stuff...keeping the magic items in the PHB would have helped to.
Well I mean he's got a point with the Feystep, but he's failing to remember that they can only do it once every five minutes, and once per encounter. By the math you don't travel very far if you just Feystep instead of walk like normal people.
the fey step jumped out at me as well. Smaller fonts would have went along way to adding stuff...keeping the magic items in the PHB would have helped to.Well I mean he's got a point with the Feystep, but he's failing to remember that they can only do it once every five minutes, and once per encounter. By the math you don't travel very far if you just Feystep instead of walk like normal people.
I think the problem is more along the lines of teleporting into and then out of every nobles house - except when you teleport out you take their jewelry.
The point is not whether this power is balanced in the Dungeon. Its weather the power is balanced in the city.
I agree with a lot of the complaints, though maybe not to the same level as the authour of the piece is taking it. That said I can't really agree with his point on Rituals. I don't think they'd really work as 'per month' powers. Rituals are basically powers that involve costs. The kind of thing that you want the players to be able to use, and sometimes even use a fair bit, but you don't want them to use the abilities freely.
I sort of see his point with there not being enough powers and I suspect that WotC was motivated by the desire to sell us Splat books with lots more powers in them. That said I'm not sure that having twice the powers from the get go is such a great thing. It really is a pretty big change in the mechanics of the game. Making the designers come up with twice the powers from the get go would probably result in either a lot of powers that were to similar or result in some powers that were clearly better then other options (which basically results in a smaller list in any case).
There is a very significant silver lining to allowing the game to play for a while among the masses and then giving us Splat books filled with powers that address whats really happening in peoples games. We do get something from Splat books full of Powers that are balanced and useful to the game based on the feedback the designers are getting. I like the idea that WotC will be filling Dungeon full of powers, classes etc. and then waiting to see what happens on things like the character Optimization boards and the feedback on the rest of their site. This will allow them to fill Splat books full of powers that people will find useful at their table but that won't break the game.
Its not a bad approach. Ultimately gives us a better game and does good things for WotCs bottom line. As it stands we are not actually so short on powers that we don't have enough to play with for at least a year.
Hi folks, and thanks to Pete Apple for picking up my blogpost. It's good to see the debate going on here :)
On to your comments.......
@Erik, I like full-page artwork as much as the next guy, but when it's at the expense of missing content and you've a pagecount to hit then it's got to be the first thing to go. Having 15 whole pages of the book taken up by art when there's only 4 or 5 at-will Powers per Class at 1st level is a crime. Play a Human Fighter and it's more a question of "which at-will Power don't you want?". You get three, and a choice of four. That's just stupid, and I'd happily sacrifice artwork to fix it.
@Panda-s1, I didn't forget that Fey Step can be used once every 5 minutes - check my math. Once per 5 minutes is 12 times per hour. 12*24 = 288 times per day. Even with an 8 hour extended rest that's 12*16 hours = 192 times per day. Fey Step being per Encounter is wrong and potentially campaign breaking. If the Eldarin player can see a location and it's within 25' they can teleport there, pretty much without restriction. You can't toss an Endarin in jail. Barred door? No problem if there's a crack underneath. 20' chasm? No problem! Make it Daily and it's much less of an issue as once they've used it for the day it's gone.
@Jeremy Mac Donald, honestly, I don't know if there is an easy fix to Rituals. I know I suggested extending the Powers list but, as you say, that doesn't feel right either as there should be a "cost" element. More thought needed.
Good points, all :)
About the At-Will power problem, At-Will powers are supposed to represent the mundane, the really basic shticks that the class use over and over. Maybe they could have used more, but what they have now is fine for me.
And I don't see how Feystep as an encounter ability is wrong, it's very convenient, but not enough that it's breaking, at least in my experience, especially given the fact that it's a) a move action to perform, and b) actually lets you travel less than an eladrin's base speed. On top of that you have to see where you're going, so traveling into the stomach of a huge creature or any other such tomfoolery is out of the question.
Which brings me to imprisoning eladrin. You're right, you can't put them into a regular jail cell. But if you put them into a sealed box, with no way to look out then you're fine. This also probably needs a bit of houseruling, like if your line of sight is obscured you can't teleport, due to lighting and breathing issues. Even then, I don't see how it's any different from imprisoning say a bugbear. I mean if you threw a bugbear into a normal jail cell, he could easily pass his bend bars/lif-- er, Strength check to break out of his cell, so of course special restraints or extra strong bars must be used to imprison strong creatures. And lets not forget PCs will eventually get non-racial teleport powers, what's the DM gonna do then?
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Also, the Powers are completely and utterly all over the place, and - get this - they're not listed in the Index!!!!. FFS people, what’s so wrong with putting all of the Powers in a chapter together in alphabetical order then using page references and lists when needed. That’s how Skills and Feats works, after all! The number of times my players have played Hunt The Power in the PHB already is beyond a joke. If you can’t even get this right, give us a f~~!ing index. It’s not too much to ask..
<tongue-in-cheek>Picture the 5th Edition commercial...:-) </tongue-in-cheek>
Grapple, grapple...
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Fey Step being per Encounter is wrong and potentially campaign breaking. If the Eldarin player can see a location and it's within 25' they can teleport there, pretty much without restriction. You can't toss an Endarin in jail. Barred door? No problem if there's a crack underneath. 20' chasm? No problem! Make it Daily and it's much less of an issue as once they've used it for the day it's gone.
It seems like every town militia should have a by-law that allows them to legally poke out the eyes of any fey they arrest, no matter how small the crime.
Mistaken identity? Tough, you shouldn't have been hangin' around bein' so airy-fairy-look-at-me-I'm better-than-you-stinkin'-humans, and lookin' suspicious, like.
For me, Eladrin's Fey Step is a great occasion to start working out how the core World deals with lawbreaking Fey.
A lot of what I read in that part of Robin's review is 'hey, Who moved my cheese!'(we're quipping buddies, so that won't be news to him)
No one bats an eye at character regenerating from 3rd degrees burns in less than 24 hours but they get in an uproar in a Fey that can blink in and out of whatever place where he can see outside of?
Yes it is a potentially powerful ability and it is totally broken for DMs who will design adventures based on older paradigms.
Like some one said on my site a few weeks ago... make your pits 40 feet deep, make Cells with no windows, Make Chasms 30 feet long...
As for the rest of his review, I agree that for character generation, the book is hard on newbies and could have been a lot better organized.
As for limits in power, let's just say that I happen to find that as an entry level product to 4e, it's well sufficient.
But he knows that already.
There's no problem with detaining nefarious Edlarin types. Handcuffs and a blindfold will do that :)
I'm more thinking about the in-game situations where the GM drops a trap or puzzle that the players have to figure out how to bypass. This could be as simple as a chasm they have to cross, jets of flame across a corridor or a locked gate they need a key for that happens to be around an ogre's neck.
All of these are things I've used in adventures before at low-level, and in every case an Eldarin would sail right through. It's one thing when the characters are 7th-10th level and have access to some kind of teleport ability (but even then it's limited in number of uses), and entirely another when you're having to consider Teleport at 1st level over and over again. At least nerfing it to Daily means they have to choose when to use it. Per encounter means it's a permanent "bypass this obstacle free" card for the player. That's unfun for GM and the other players alike.
As Chatty says - you end up having to work around the Power to fix it. When you have to do that, it's a sure sign something is Very Broken!
I disagree completely.
I don't look at it as a "bypass this obstacle free card". I look at it as a tool for the players to use to try and help bypass that obstacle. After all, the Eladrin may be able to bypass those flaming jets, but that doesn't mean his friends would be able to. And perhaps when he did hop across the room, an ambush is awaiting him and guess what? He doesn't have his encounter power anymore to get back and his friends are all stranded on the other side of the flaming jets. When the ogre catches him trying to snatch his key and grabs him up by the wrist, breaking bones, the eladrin is going to be s+@@ out of luck.
As for burglar eladrin that teleport inside and out of noble's housing... HOW? Don't they have to be able to see? In order to see, they'd have to be able to approach the house without being seen and peek in a window or something. If a character can do this, chances are they are very stealthy, and possibly have a good theivery skill anyways. Which means, they'd be able to simple open that window's lock and climb in anyways. What's the difference??
Agree on the index, and/or possibly a much more detailed listing of contents.
Disagree with much of everything else.
You should not remove artwork to make room for more powers, that's just silly. The book needs to be pleasing to the eye as well as informative.
Removing some of the powers/spells and making them rituals is a stroke of genius. I am guessing that he has not tried using the system (he propably feels that having played since Lazarus, he can tell how a system works just by looking at it). Delve deeper and you will find that the ritual idea is really clever.
More or less powers? It is true that there is a lot less powers pr character than in 3.5. But that was a conscious choice from the designers, not an error. This was done to remove those tedious times when the partys high level mage (or cleric) has to spend 25 min (real time) to make his spell program.
I could go on. But the bottom line is, that the reviewer does not seem to have actually tried the game.
You should not remove artwork to make room for more powers, that's just silly. The book needs to be pleasing to the eye as well as informative.
I wholeheartedly agree. In fact, when I started playing at the wee age of 12, it was the artwork that drew me in and stimulated my imagination. If the book had been full of text with no visual stimilation in the form of artwork, I wouldn't be playing today.
For what it's worth, Robin has a knack to run against the current on most issues. I think he somehow thrives on it. He sees things a lot differently than I do, but he's always a gentleman about it.
So yeah Greywulf, I think you are wrong 1000 ways between Montreal and London on pretty much everything but the organzation and the index, but I know you honestly think that about the PHB and I respect that...
God I wish we never meet for real! We'll need a lot of beer to prevent us from fighting!
:)
> But the bottom line is, that the reviewer does not seem to have actually tried the game.
Right now I've 6 sessions of 4e under my belt - 4 as GM, 2 as player and I'm in the middle of organizing a fairly large 4e D&D Gladiatorial Fight Club involving almost 30 characters between 9 players.
So yeh, you could say I've tried it...... :D
Agree on the index, and/or possibly a much more detailed listing of contents.
Disagree with much of everything else.You should not remove artwork to make room for more powers, that's just silly. The book needs to be pleasing to the eye as well as informative.
Removing some of the powers/spells and making them rituals is a stroke of genius. I am guessing that he has not tried using the system (he propably feels that having played since Lazarus, he can tell how a system works just by looking at it). Delve deeper and you will find that the ritual idea is really clever.
More or less powers? It is true that there is a lot less powers pr character than in 3.5. But that was a conscious choice from the designers, not an error. This was done to remove those tedious times when the partys high level mage (or cleric) has to spend 25 min (real time) to make his spell program.
I could go on. But the bottom line is, that the reviewer does not seem to have actually tried the game.
I was gonna post here but you have made my point so much better than I could.
So, what he said.
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As for burglar eladrin that teleport inside and out of noble's housing... HOW? Don't they have to be able to see? In order to see, they'd have to be able to approach the house without being seen and peek in a window or something. If a...
Come on now, an Eladrin walking down the street in the middle of the night can peer through a shop window, keyhole, or other small opening and have access to any shop he wants to. Unless 4E got rid of keyholes and made every shop-owner have a free wild alarm system and Eladrin wards, this is broken.
Come on now, an Eladrin walking down the street in the middle of the night can peer through a shop window, keyhole, or other small opening and have access to any shop he wants to. Unless 4E got rid of keyholes and made every shop-owner have a free wild alarm system and Eladrin wards, this is broken.
You're telling me a rogue with decent thievery skills couldn't do the same thing? Most places are going to be easy to get into and get out of anyways. Hell, smashing a window and climbing in.
The key IS those security systems. Without them, you are screwed against a rogue or any sort of creature with a teleport ability. The difference is, a rogue can disable those security systems. An eladrin can't (unless he's a rogue as well).
The Character Class chapter is a joke. It’s over 120 pages long, of which 80% is a listing of Powers sorted (if you could call it that) by class and level. That’s ok-ish when you’re generating a Fighter, but less than friendly when you’re mid-game and want to double check a Range. What would have been so wrong with having a Character Class chapter containing, y’know, Character Classes and putting another Chapter listing all the Powers? Jeez.
I like the Character Class chapter. When I build a Cleric all that I need other than feats is in one spot.
> But the bottom line is, that the reviewer does not seem to have actually tried the game.
Right now I've 6 sessions of 4e under my belt - 4 as GM, 2 as player and I'm in the middle of organizing a fairly large 4e D&D Gladiatorial Fight Club involving almost 30 characters between 9 players.
So yeh, you could say I've tried it...... :D
Fine! I accept that. I just got the opposite impression from reading your review. But you've played it :-)
I can actually confirm the concerns about Fey Step--and it's from a 3.5 experience. I played a Horizon Walker at one point--an often overlooked prestige class likely due to it not being much of a combat monster. I chose the Shifting (Planar) Terrain Mastery class ability, granting me the ability to Dimension Door once every 1d4 rounds. The DM quickly started putting limits on my character's ability to move about--requiring line of sight, making the range Close, changing the time required between uses, etc. In the end he ended up, ironically as this was about 3 years ago, with an ability very much like the current Fey Step. Yet this character was still a deal-breaker in a ton of situations. I ended up voluntarily retiring the character. If I ever play 4e, Fey Step will definitely be a Daily power...
So the question is:
Is it a deal breaker because of current adventure designs (including home brewed) or do you think it breaks pretty much all kinds of adventures in the hands of a crafty, borderline abusive player?
I can actually confirm the concerns about Fey Step--and it's from a 3.5 experience. I played a Horizon Walker at one point--an often overlooked prestige class likely due to it not being much of a combat monster. I chose the Shifting (Planar) Terrain Mastery class ability, granting me the ability to Dimension Door once every 1d4 rounds. The DM quickly started putting limits on my character's ability to move about--requiring line of sight, making the range Close, changing the time required between uses, etc. In the end he ended up, ironically as this was about 3 years ago, with an ability very much like the current Fey Step. Yet this character was still a deal-breaker in a ton of situations. I ended up voluntarily retiring the character. If I ever play 4e, Fey Step will definitely be a Daily power...
So the question is:
Is it a deal breaker because of current adventure designs (including home brewed) or do you think it breaks pretty much all kinds of adventures in the hands of a crafty, borderline abusive player?
If it cannot accommodate current adventure design, that's a major problem. I've written a few adventures in my day for the RPGA and in doing so tried to come up with all the DM tips I could for spells and class abilities relevant to the level of the mod. If I had to write for a 1st level character that could teleport as with Fey Step then the adventure would be so convoluted as to be unbelievable (or too challenging for parties without an eladrin).
In the hands of the crafty, it's definitely even worse. Does Fey Step slow down/mitigate inertia? If so, jump off a cliff of any height and then just Fey Step when within 25' of the ground. If not, then get a good running start at a chasm, jump as far as possible, then Fey Step at the height of the jump. It really seems like only the combat effectiveness of the ability was considered, and therein lies the problem.
If it cannot accommodate current adventure design, that's a major problem. I've written a few adventures in my day for the RPGA and in doing so tried to come up with all the DM tips I could for spells and class abilities relevant to the level of the mod. If I had to write for a 1st level character that could teleport as with Fey Step then the adventure would be so convoluted as to be unbelievable (or too challenging for parties without an eladrin).
So tell me how do you balance adventures in 3.5 edition with the MYRIAD of spells that allow wizards and sorcerers to pretty much do ANYTHING they want. Invisibility, Teleport, Time Stop, Dispel Magic, Tongues, Tiny Hut, Water Breathing, Fly, Dimension Door, Scrying, Dominate, Passwall, Telekinesis, Transmute Rock/Mud, Anti-Magic Field, etc... It goes ON and On. And, that's just "core" spells.
I mean seriously, do you only play 3rd level and lower 3.5 edition games??
If you look at Fey Step as a deal-breaker that's a shame. It's simply a tool ONE of the player's can use to overcome an obstacle. Just like the myriad of spells in 3.5 Edition, it may make SOME aspects of an adventure easier if it's accessable to you. But, that's why VARIANCE is key in a good adventure. If your whole adventure is ruined because of one power I'd say that's a problem with your adventure, NOT the power.
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The design of the PHB is actually one of the thing I like best about 4e. The character chapter should only be referenced during character generation and leveling. The powers themselves should be copied completely on to a character sheet or individual cards. I don't see any reason to refer back to the book during play for information on powers.
The font size is not a real problem either. Their choice of fonts are optimal for scanning text. Sure, they could have used a smaller font but that would have decreased the books utility. The large 3/4 page artwork serves a similar purpose. They help the reader spot chapter breaks while flipping through the book.
I can understand the frustration with the number of choices in the PHB - limited races, classes, powers, etc. I think the one sacred cow that should have been slaughtered, ground, and served up and yummy burgers is the whole three book set thing. I would rather have four books splitting the PHB into races and classes in one book and core mechanics in the other.
That being said I actually like the idea that the core PHB provides limited basic options. This allows for greater expansion of the fundamentals. I know - some folks dislike splat books. They are, unfortunately, and inevitability. At least this time they will contain more relevant information. I think that was one of the biggest weaknesses of the 3e splat books - they often contained very little information that would actually be used in any given game. My hope is that this new generation of splat books will be far more utilitarian than their predecessors.
So tell me how do you balance adventures in 3.5 edition with the MYRIAD of spells that allow wizards and sorcerers to pretty much do ANYTHING they want. Invisibility, Teleport, Time Stop, Dispel Magic, Tongues, Tiny Hut, Water Breathing, Fly, Dimension Door, Scrying, Dominate, Passwall, Telekinesis, Transmute Rock/Mud, Anti-Magic Field, etc... It goes ON and On. And, that's just "core" spells.
I mean seriously, do you only play 3rd level and lower 3.5 edition games??
If you look at Fey Step as a deal-breaker that's a shame. It's simply a tool ONE of the player's can use to overcome an obstacle. Just like the myriad of spells in 3.5 Edition, it may make SOME aspects of an adventure easier if it's accessable to you. But, that's why VARIANCE is key in a good adventure. If your whole adventure is ruined because of one power I'd say that's a problem with your adventure, NOT the power.
First up, snarkiness is unnecessary. If you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, I'm happy to oblige. If not, I'll seek dialogue with other folks.
I don't balance the adventures to everything--I include DM advice sections on possible impacts from spells/abilities at a given level. This is usually a paragraph for low-level adventures and may be a page or more at high levels. I include Familiarity references for teleport/divination, as these are usually the biggest problem items. I include speak with the dead/plants/animals as appropriate. And I only deal with core spells. I do not deal with invisibility, dispel magic, etc. Those are fairly straightforward results that should be readily adjudicated.
Variance is not a problem, and it's actually one aspect of the game I find the most enjoyable.
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My question is:
Why was this not spotted during development and playtesting?
I can see a lot of potential to abuse this ability, but maybe, in actual gameplay, this turns out not to be an Issue.
Anyway, as the fey Step ability is likely to be known,
- every single shop will have shutters in front of the windows and owners make sure the interior of their shops is dark.
- Every keyhole will have a moveable cap on both sides that negates vision into the next room. Same goes for peepholes.
- All Walls are at least 30ft high (although the eladrin army can use wagons of 5ft high to get onto the walls easily).
- All pits are at least 30ft deep. and ledges are 30ft high (although you can take a high jump in your fist move action to get up 5ft and then use the fey step
- All chasms are at least 30ft wide (although you can take a running jump in your first move action to take those 5ft and then use fey step)
- All prisoneers always wear blindfolds (do not take risks).
The design of the PHB is actually one of the thing I like best about 4e. The character chapter should only be referenced during character generation and leveling. The powers themselves should be copied completely on to a character sheet or individual cards. I don't see any reason to refer back to the book during play for information on powers.
You dont even need to copy the entirety of the power. At this point, I can completely fit a character on one side of a sheet of paper. Thats something that was possible with fighters and maybe rogues. Classes with spells? I used index cards to keep most of the bookkeeping at bay.
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You dont even need to copy the entirety of the power. At this point, I can completely fit a character on one side of a sheet of paper. Thats something that was possible with fighters and maybe rogues. Classes with spells? I used index cards to keep most of the bookkeeping at bay.
I actually found some of the power cards online and printed them out. My wife loves them. "Why didn't they have these before?" Sigh. I guess if you dive in, dive in the deep end. :-)
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I agree with the "lack of powers" comment as well as organization of the PHB. The organization is horrendous. However, the biggest dirty little secret about the lack of powers: They are all powers any class can use.
Want a burst encounter ability for your fighter? Scorching burst can be changed by removing the Fire descriptor, changing "implement" to "melee weapon", and changing the damage to 1[w]. A little evocative text: The fighter dances among his enemies in a flurry of cuts and stabs. Viola. A fighter burst power.
All they have really done is seperate by role, so maybe the above example is a bad idea, giving a "defender" a "controller" power. But that doesn't mean you can't tinker within a role. Rogue, Warlock, and Ranger powers can be mixed and matched with minor tweaks without sidelining each others role in a party.
I rue the day when we get a ranged basic attack from the necromancer thats identical to Magic Missile but necrotic instead of force damage, but thats essentially where it will head. There are only so many permutations of damage type and effects (pull, push, prone, stun, teleport, etc) you can do. Damage is pretty much fixed for a given level and target type.
First up, snarkiness is unnecessary. If you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, I'm happy to oblige. If not, I'll seek dialogue with other folks.
I don't balance the adventures to everything--I include DM advice sections on possible impacts from spells/abilities at a given level. This is usually a paragraph for low-level adventures and may be a page or more at high levels. I include Familiarity references for teleport/divination, as these are usually the biggest problem items. I include speak with the dead/plants/animals as appropriate. And I only deal with core spells. I do not deal with invisibility, dispel magic, etc. Those are fairly straightforward results that should be readily adjudicated.
Variance is not a problem, and it's actually one aspect of the game I find the most enjoyable.
I'm glad you include variance. What would be the harm in including a short paragraph during your low level adventures:
"If you have a PC that's Eladrin, please be aware that Encounter 7 may have these implications..."
I rue the day when we get a ranged basic attack from the necromancer thats identical to Magic Missile but necrotic instead of force damage, but thats essentially where it will head. There are only so many permutations of damage type and effects (pull, push, prone, stun, teleport, etc) you can do. Damage is pretty much fixed for a given level and target type.
You would think... But, reference Magic the Gathering. It has a very limited number of "rules" and "powers". But, the idea of the "simple rules, exception based gameplay" is that as long as the developers are creative, there's room for new mechanics.
This can be a downside and a good side though. I can totally see how people may not like the exception based mechanics.
I really like the new layout of the PHB, and am puzzled at the critique. Need a power? The class and level will lead you to it almost instantly. Need to know pretty much anything else? It's laid out in very easy to find way. Maybe the book was written for my way of thinking, but I find it VASTLY easier to find than anything in 3E. I'm sure there are niggling little rules that only appear in some strange, inappropriate place, but so far I haven't found any.
As to Fey Step, I also don't see the problem. Maybe I'm just not thinking of the challenges you guys are. What exactly is your Eladrin Stepping over/past that is infuriating you so much?
Cheers! :)
The board wasn't accepting my close quote tags so I had to use bolds instead...
What is there is so poorly referenced, badly structured and just downright lacking that it’s beyond a joke.
Hyperbole.
using sticky tabs to mark pages
I see people using tabs on every kind of reference book that exists, just as I see people not using them. This is an utter non-issue.
This game needs a Glossary, bad. It needs a bigger, better index.
Correct.
My impressions are that the PHB designers spent so long congratulating themselves for making such an awesome game, they forgot to actually write the damned thing.
Comments like that lend zero credibility to your argument.
Also, the Powers are completely and utterly all over the place
Not true. They're grouped according to the classes that use them--which is very good organization, not bad. Instead of paging through the book during play--or heavens forfend using a tab--I can keep it open and be within a few pages of what I need to consult.
The number of times my players have played Hunt The Power in the PHB already is beyond a joke.
Beyond a joke, eh?
The Character Class chapter is a joke.
You must laugh a lot, but despite that, you don't sound like a happy person.
there’s so f~~!ing few of them to choose from it’s laughable.
In the most recent 3e game I played half of the players were new to D&D or hadn't played in so terribly long they might as well have been new. They found the choice of spells, feats, and skills--and the math associated with them--simply paralyzing. One player even said out loud: "The number of choices is overwhelming." I've never forgotten that i because that sums up the problem that 4 fixes. There is a point at which there are too many choices and players are simply overwhelmed by it all. Having a few choices to start and then more choices later is exactly the right way to go.
Likewise, there's time at the table. A few sessions ago, we were gearing up for a fight and the two spellcasters at the table picked their spells. We're playing around 15th-level characters. It took an hour for them to pick all their spells because they had to look so much up, what the spells did, and all of that. For me, who had no spells to cast, that hour was shatteringly boring and frustrating because I came to the table to play D&D, not sit and watch other people do bookkeeping.
Likewise, it can take forever even for experienced D&D players to decide what to do during their turn, something that's terribly pronounced at high level. When a single round of combat takes 45 minutes to an hour to play, that's too long.
Take out the page-and-a-half double spread artwork at the beginning
Or not. Art is fun and adds to the overall enjoyment of the book. Back to ye curmugdeonly artless world with ye--but don't be too bitter at those of us who appreciate nice art.
why not just make ‘em Powers that are usable per week, per month or whatever. This means they could go into that Powers chapter that’s missing
Because rituals can be used by any class, thus it would be inappropriate to either make them powers or to group them by class.
Sure, I know that the limited number of Powers is designed to get us to buy more books from Wizards tofill in the gaps
And/or to not make the game overwhelming for new players.
That Fey Step means you can’t put your Eldarin in jail.
Don't be ridiculous. There are any number of ways to restrain an eladrin even with fey step. A hood might be the easiest. Another would be a 30' pit.
You can’t have them stuck at the bottom of a pit trap.
Whyever not?
The equipment list is very limited too, lacking several of the core essentials for any dungeon adventure.
Untrue. At least, none of my players have noted a shocking loss of "several essentials."
Where’s the 10’ poles (personally, I prefer quarterstaves anyhow)
Seriously? A 10' pole is essential? I disagree, given that I haven't seen one used in over a decade. It was probably removed because no one used them--like you, who prefer quarterstaves.
There should be a group of General Powers which are open to all
Like feats and rituals?
The Star Wars RPG contains the entire system in one book
Apples and oranges. Star Wars is a very distinct and limited milleu. D&D has to satisfy a far wider range of experiences.
d20 Modern is another one-book system that’s pure brilliance.
The wealth system is the single worst idea in the history of roleplaying games. No, not brilliant. But that's a different topic, really.
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I get the feeling they deliberately nerfed the index/glossary so that you have to pay for the DDI to use the Compendium feature to look things up. Seriously, at that level you don't "forget" an index.
Also, his complaints about fey-step extend to other powers as well.
Have a BBEG holed up in his castle? The wizard can use Thunderwave every 6 seconds to blast a hole in his 30-foot thick/high walls!
Every class gets 2 at-will, 1 encounter and 1 daily Power at first level (the Wizard inconguously gets 2 dailies but has to select which one to use each day), but there’s so f~~!ing few of them to choose from it’s laughable. Look, if you’re going to offer a whole new meta-game system, jump in with both feet.
Careful my friend. That way leads to Hero System…er…I mean madness.
On an unrelated topic, would it be too much to ask people to avoid run on sentences so I could only quote the point I want to address.
As to Fey Step, I also don't see the problem. Maybe I'm just not thinking of the challenges you guys are. What exactly is your Eladrin Stepping over/past that is infuriating you so much?
Cheers! :)
Dang system ate my post...
In summary, the situations that could be exploited by this ability are so numerous as to be impossible to recount or summarize in an adventure. I do not do dungeon crawls, which would probably be the easiest area in which to control Fey Step. In a standard wilderness or urban campaign (roughly 80% of my games), it really boggles my mind that the exploits for this ability aren't obvious--scouting, thievery, exploration...in all of these areas, an eladrin is going to have a huge advantage unless the entire world is re-written to work around their racial ability. And such a re-write, as stated before, should be the first indicator that the ability is problematic. It means that the standard medieval fantasy world is no longer possible, or else the eladrin is the master of the entire setting.
Come on now, an Eladrin walking down the street in the middle of the night can peer through a shop window, keyhole, or other small opening and have access to any shop he wants to. Unless 4E got rid of keyholes and made every shop-owner have a free wild alarm system and Eladrin wards, this is broken.You're telling me a rogue with decent thievery skills couldn't do the same thing? Most places are going to be easy to get into and get out of anyways. Hell, smashing a window and climbing in.
The key IS those security systems. Without them, you are screwed against a rogue or any sort of creature with a teleport ability. The difference is, a rogue can disable those security systems. An eladrin can't (unless he's a rogue as well).
I think that is a stretch. A teleporting creature in 3.5 wasn't a first level character, and a first level thief didn't have the skills to pick every lock they encounter. Sure you could break a window, but it makes noise and has a higher chance of getting caught. The question is are you argueing from a DMs standpoint, or a players?
It means that the standard medieval fantasy world is no longer possible, or else the eladrin is the master of the entire setting.
I always felt that way about elves living for thousands of years.
The question is are you argueing from a DMs standpoint, or a players?
That's a really good question, and perhaps I am being naive about the whole ordeal. I am arguing from a DM's point of view, and in my DM's appraisal, I don't forsee the Fey Step to be a problem in my game, despite the fact that I too play non-dungeon crawl adventures.
I simply see this ability as a nifty tool for the players to accomplish their mission. Is this going to give them an edge in certain situations? Yes. It certainly is. I'm not arguing against that. Is it a powerful ability for 1st level? Yes. It is. Neither am I arguing against that. I'd be more on the side of someone arguing if this ability was balanced against all the other class abilities.
But, to tell me this ability breaks the game to the point that one cannot write 1st level adventures with it in the game?
I disagree. Completely.
The question is are you argueing from a DMs standpoint, or a players?That's a really good question, and perhaps I am being naive about the whole ordeal. I am arguing from a DM's point of view, and in my DM's appraisal, I don't forsee the Fey Step to be a problem in my game, despite the fact that I too play non-dungeon crawl adventures.
I simply see this ability as a nifty tool for the players to accomplish their mission. Is this going to give them an edge in certain situations? Yes. It certainly is. I'm not arguing against that. Is it a powerful ability for 1st level? Yes. It is. Neither am I arguing against that. I'd be more on the side of someone arguing if this ability was balanced against all the other class abilities.
But, to tell me this ability breaks the game to the point that one cannot write 1st level adventures with it in the game?
I disagree. Completely.
I'm not just looking at a singular adventure here, which would indeed be hard (Have you had a 1st level module "published" before? I don't ask condescendingly, but because my perspective on this would have been very different ten years ago before I tried my hand at it and had to start thinking beyond my own home game).
Rather the overall campaign setting. This race thwarts everything I would generally assume as defensive measures in a medieval fantasy setting. They would quite literally walk all over any but the most powerful of kingdoms. So I'm forced to make higher walls, wider chasms, deeper pits, and vision-blocking locks in order to make this racial concept fit my logic of a setting. That's not good. Go beyond the adventure/mission. Think about the world in its entirety, populated by a race such as this.
I'm not just looking at a singular adventure here, which would indeed be hard (Have you had a 1st level module "published" before? I don't ask condescendingly, but because my perspective on this would have been very different ten years ago before I tried my hand at it and had to start thinking beyond my own home game).
No. I have not published an adventure, but I've definitely been interested in writing one to be published, so believe it or not, I do value your opinion.
Rather the overall campaign setting. This race thwarts everything I would generally assume as defensive measures in a medieval fantasy setting. They would quite literally walk all over any but the most powerful of kingdoms. So I'm forced to make higher walls, wider chasms, deeper pits, and vision-blocking locks in order to make this racial concept fit my logic of a setting. That's not good. Go beyond the adventure/mission. Think about the world in its entirety, populated by a race such as this.
You're right. I can see how this might at first appear to be a campaign destroyer. But, I think if you dissected each fantasy race and applied it this way, you could come up with similar results.
What about some 3.5 races?
What about Warforged? They don't need to eat, sleep, and never get exhausted. How is any nation supposed to defend against an army of them? But, they do exist in Eberron, and there really aren't any nations that the warforged control (I'm excluding the Mournland here for obvious reasons).
What about Changelings? They can simply change their shape to assume anyone's identity? Why haven't they murdered all the noble's in the world and assumed their identities and taken control? Seems like it'd be easy. Pose as a chamber maid, learn the mannerisms of the lord in question, kill, swap places, rinse repeat.
I'm sure you could take any number of races - hell, especially some monstrous races - and include them in these types of scenarios.
I think the solution is to assume that people have developed defenses against such things. Also, the population of Eladrin may not be near what humans are. Why would a kingdom change it's entire defense system because a rare breed can do some wild things?
I'm not saying this is a fix for the problem. I am saying this problem is prevalant in a fantasy world with races that have all sorts of strange and possibly terrifying abilities.
Well I mean he's got a point with the Feystep, but he's failing to remember that they can only do it once every five minutes, and once per encounter.
No...I think he recalls that pretty well...