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It's funny. I've always thought -- and still do -- this so-called "edition wars" was stupid. Maybe because I started role-playing just a scant few years ago, maybe because I like variety, or maybe it seemed silly to be fighting over what should just be a fun time.
Whatever the reason, I followed and played all editions, writing reviews on various Pathfinder products, demoing 4E to newbies, and recently joining the Grand Wiki project to make various Mongoose d20 OGL products available on-line.
Now I've become some sorta a target. Huh. Folks are now wondering if I'm a -- gasp! -- troll. Queries on what I think are interesting subject matters are now platforms for others to question my "loyalty" to one edition or another. I always thought such fanaticism was in the realm of religion, sports, and cars; sadly, it's reached out here at Paizo like being slapped in the face. I'm beginning to see why Sebastian and others are sometimes a bit rough on folks over what I thought, at the time, was mild commentary. And Lilith once warned me of such extremism even in once other friendly sites like Necromancer Games.
So where do I go for here? Still straddling both sides of the edition fence, of course. I'm having a blast playing/DMing in my various 3.x campaigns; had a great time with 4E at Strategicon and look forward to joining my first campaign this week; and Curse of the Crimson Throne game using the PRPG AR3 rules continues to get better and better. (I LUV the Pathfinder wizard.) I'll continue to submit my queries and voice my opinion on all three products.
I'll just be a little sadder, that's all.
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Joela, I’m sorry you feel that way. I haven’t been keeping up with a lot of the 4e discussion (or even a lot of the PFRPG discussion) so I may have missed something, but I presume perhaps this feeling is partially in response to posts on this thread.
I must admit, I was a little surprised at your reaction to DMcCoy’s post. Maybe I was missing something; maybe I’m too disconnected from it, or maybe it’s a culmination of a whole lot of other things … but I struggled to see the offence in it. He seemed to be defending you (although there’s always a danger in speaking for someone else as he did – maybe he just really misinterpreted where you were coming from).
I haven’t noticed any threads here where you’ve been called a troll. It’s a pity if that has happened. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with playing and supporting more than one edition of the game (although some people seem to).
I’m still waiting for the WoTC / 3rd party vendor throw down at Gen Con (assuming they decided to go).
I’m still waiting for the WoTC / 3rd party vendor throw down at Gen Con (assuming they decided to go).
on a lighter note, I heard Gen Con was supplying vendor booths with rubberized folding chairs to meet their insurance company's stringent restrictions. There was a certain fear of a WWF style metal folding chair ruckus.
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Joela, I’m sorry you feel that way. I haven’t been keeping up with a lot of the 4e discussion (or even a lot of the PFRPG discussion) so I may have missed something, but I presume perhaps this feeling is partially in response to posts on this thread.
I just posted on that thread. I don't think McCoy meant anything negative, in fact, I believe he was supporting you. Which is good, since you do have the right to be here, and ask questions. Many of your questions are things I am interested in, too, and am glad someone brought them up.
As for Pax, well, he may be a rabid 3.5 cheerleader, but it may help to put his posts in context.
After the 4E announcement, and after any development re the GSL, we have had posters on the boards, querying why Paizo weren't immediately cancelling all their Third Edition plans and signing up to 4E, without sight of the rules or the OGL (now GSL). They'd follow it with a bit of emotional blackmail, claim that Paizo 'owed' them (despite this often being their first-ever post), make dire warnings (threats?) that Paizo/Pathfinder would fail, then declare they were leaving.
I don't think you are one of these type, from the content and politeness of your posts, but I can understand why someone would ask what your hopes and intentions are, since there are still a lot of posters asking Paizo (some nicely, some not so nicely) about their future plans, who seem to not have taken in the harsh realities (and dire possibilities) of the GSL, some of whom are blaming the staff here for splitting the D&D community with their announcement of Pathfinder, declaring it some kind of 'betrayal', rather than something they were forced to do by the endless delays by WotC.
I believe that expecting Paizo to commit to a 4E line, in light of the uncertainty over what could be inserted into the GSL, is wishful thinking. Such a move could damage their ability to produce OGL content at all, and should really only be carried out by a company that is willing to stop all 3.5 product, or has little to lose.
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Welcome to the human race, where a person can hate another person for whatever reason comes to mind...and then justify it within their own reasoning.
I agree with the OP, so what if he likes both systems, or even an old system, off the wall system, home brew, etc. I don't and hope he has fun playing the game and not let the rants and ravings on the message boards take up to much of his thought process.
Kohl
I must admit, I was a little surprised at your reaction to DMcCoy’s post.
Me too. It completely looked like he was, in fact, defending joela - and then joela blasted him!
Now, I would think if anyone would be developing a persecution complex, it would be CWM (not that it would be legitimate, though)... Hmmm. :)
You don't have to take a side in the edition wars.
I haven't.
My online group is just finishing up Age of Worms and then its onward to The Savage Tide using the Paizo 3.5 rules.
I am with another online group playing a just started 4e campaign.
Don't for a instance think you have to come down on one side or the other of this edition frakkus and don't allow any one to try to force you to take sides.
The last thing this community needs is the fanatisicm seen in soccer fans cheering their home team and willing to wreck the soccer stadium in a fit of pique over some insult from the other side.
I must admit, I was a little surprised at your reaction to DMcCoy’s post. Maybe I was missing something; maybe I’m too disconnected from it,
IME, typed posts from the internet are very easy to misinterpret considering that there is no emotion conveyed. So its quite understandable that Joela felt my post was snarky.
Joela, you're a good person and I didn't mean anything negative towards you by my post. No hard feelings I hope. But to address your OP, who cares if you are called a troll? Do you make inflaming comments? No. Do you ask thought provoking questions that start quality discussions? Yes. These are not trollish qualities. So if someone ever calls you a troll, ignore them.
I'm with Black Moria; I'm firmly neutral with a generous side of I don't give a crap.
From one standpoint, supporting your favored rules set like your hometown sports team is all fine...
But on the other hand, spending your waking hours posting on multiple boards and waging flame wars about this screams "I need a life".
I used to post here almost daily about a year ago, but that was more to do with my game journal than debating rules; people seem to forget that the DM has final say whether or not to utilize any rule in any book or to house rule modify them in any way they like - which, in essence, makes the debate moot.
It's like saying that an '08 Mustang is better than a '68 Mustang - without having any clue what changes either owner has made under the hood.
The only toll that the "Edition War" has taken on me is that I'm less inclined to post about anything game related online any more; I just run my table and use the Web for rules and material research.
Marc
Sympathy for the OP, and apparently for McCoy. I did not read the thread so I can't make any comments about that.
But..
Never forget that a lot of people like to have things clearly defined in 'black and white' as it were. In this case, you have some people who are 3E and some who are 4E. To some of those people, a person who likes both defies the two options that they have laid out in their own head. You are not allowed to like both. You are either with them or against them. Invariably, they will see you as the enemy too. It's just the nature of being human.
I don't know if I made any sense there, but.. Well.. It's the internet.
I swing both ways...
I feel you, Joela. I'm pretty happy that Paizo gives me a way to maintain usage on the $1500+ 3rd edition books I've purchased and a fantastic new world to play in.
And I'm happy that 4e gives a new experience (and possibly a new world) for me to play with and in.
And both editions have their bad points, which I will no doubt spend more time than appropriate complaining about online, explaining how in my magnificence, I would have done it better.
When it comes to RPing, I'm rather new to the game, having only 8 years under my belt. But was this level of animosity also directed at those who liked playing Rifts or Exalted or Shadowrun, back in the day when they were (more) popular? Could you play both without being a sellout?
I feel you, Joela. I'm pretty happy that Paizo gives me a way to maintain usage on the $1500+ 3rd edition books I've purchased and a fantastic new world to play in.
And I'm happy that 4e gives a new experience (and possibly a new world) for me to play with and in.
And both editions have their bad points, which I will no doubt spend more time than appropriate complaining about online, explaining how in my magnificence, I would have done it better.
When it comes to RPing, I'm rather new to the game, having only 8 years under my belt. But was this level of animosity also directed at those who liked playing Rifts or Exalted or Shadowrun, back in the day when they were (more) popular? Could you play both without being a sellout?
In general I've only seen this general level of vitrol when 3.0 went to 3.5, although the switch from 2E to 3E didn't exactly go off without a hitch either (I suspect the internet just wasn't quite ready to generate this level of nerdrage)
As far as other gaming systems go, for the most part we're all a big happy familiy. White Wolf likes to needle the DnD guys but I've always seen it as some playful ribbing, not real mean spiritedness. but I suppose some people probably get riled up about that too.
Cheers! :)
But was this level of animosity also directed at those who liked playing Rifts or Exalted or Shadowrun, back in the day when they were (more) popular? Could you play both without being a sellout?
I remember back in my 1E days on how we looked down on the GURPS players. I remember one guy played both and how we always gave him flack about how could he play such a weird game. Yea, there's a definite "Us vs Them" mentality in RPGs. Granted is was never this bad, but the core mentality was always present.
I'll just be a little sadder, that's all.Don't be sad, you are not alone. :-)
This "war" will not be forever.
But since both systems are sticking around, it will probably last a lot longer than it would have if every publisher was going 4E.
There are going to be several lessons in all of this once a couple of years have passed and we can study the results.
I remember back in my 1E days on how we looked down on the GURPS players. I remember one guy played both and how we always gave him flack about how could he play such a weird game. Yea, there's a definite "Us vs Them" mentality in humanity. Granted is was never this bad, but the core mentality was always present.
Fixed that for ya. ;)
Just wanted to add in, Joe, that I don't think your alone on being edition neutral, and that so far nothing you've posted would be something I would call inflammatory on either side. Your comments and questions are good; so don't let it disappoint. In McCoy defense, he's also pretty level headed in my observations - so I don't think his comment was intended as being rude or mean.
That being said, I totally believe that both editions and their iterations can co-exist. Whether they are all successful, I can't say -but I do think that 3.5 variation such as Paizo's 3Path and 4th can each find a market and appeal. I would have to say that it is probably possible now moreso than with any other edition that has been developed (although with the internet there's plenty of chances for 1st and 2nd edition construction that didn't exist in the past to make them still viable).
It's all good here, I hope.
I remember back in my 1E days on how we looked down on the GURPS players. I remember one guy played both and how we always gave him flack about how could he play such a weird game. Yea, there's a definite "Us vs Them" mentality in RPGs. Granted is was never this bad, but the core mentality was always present.
Try being a Hero System troll...er...I mean fan.
Joela, you always strike me as having a reasoned approach to you debating skills, which is needed on these boards. Too many people get wound up about the game, pure and simple. There are a lot of more horrible things out there to worry about than if someone posting on a board agrees or disagrees with you.
As a PRPG booster, I would personally be discouraged if you decided to leave these boards. I think you, CWM, Pete Apple and the others who bring a respectful and reasonable tone to the boards in defense of 4e are a needed counterpoint. Debate is how we resolve things. Try not to let the vitriol get to you (although I know it is hard)
Hey joela--I just want to say, "Keep on truckin'!"
I like both games and have run both these past few weeks---and the players pretty much had fun no matter what the game was.
You're not alone!
(I suspect the internet just wasn't quite ready to generate this level of nerdrage)
Nerdrage - Lol. Thats pretty funny. I'd not heard that one before. I need to find a way to use that in a conversation.
Oh...perhaps as part of a pickup line at the bar, That'd probably be at least good for a laugh.
Hey joela--I just want to say, "Keep on truckin'!"
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I am playing both and have discovered the camps don't get that. Some of the 4E types her in Atlanta see me as backwards as I am running a PFRPG test. The 3.5 crowd asks me how I can "betray" them. Some folks get it, and most do not.
It's crazy. Without picking a side in politics, I think I can easily say to all of you, "look at what is happening in the world." There are far more important issues for you attach your passion to than an edition of a game.
It's sad and comic.
I just keep judging. People just keep lining up. So I must be doing something right.
Hey let's celebrate the fact we're all gamers ay? 1st edition through to 4E. It's sad that there's so much ill feeling about different editions. I think as gamers we've got plenty in common so let's not divide our community. I'm new here on these messageboards but have been gaming for 20+ years. It's the role-playing with other gamers and having a great time that matters. Just my two coppers worth =)
I'm a roleplayer - first, second, last. If I can *imagine* my character, and the system helps me do that - the system becomes irrelevant. I've played all the way from Basic onwards and plenty of non-D&D and non-Fantasy systems in between (Toon, anyone?) and what's more - I had a blast doing it.
I'm now married, with a house, job, kids - the works. Time is precious so I can no longer support the many different RPGs I used to play, and friends, although still in touch, have moved away. I'm lucky though, we still manage to get together and play every week - God bless the Internet.
So what do we play? Warhammer Fantasy 2e, D&D 3.5e and D&D 4e - we recently had a campaign conclude using D&D 2e. We're still interested in starting up a Traveller game. Luckily though I only have to concern myself really with one system - D&D 3.5e (which will morph into PFRPG once I start up again in Jan 2010).
Time for playing is too precious, so I've never really got into the Edition Wars. I prefer 3.5e over 4e myself, certainly as a DM - but it helps me if I identify them as different games. This will become so much easier once I just call it 'Pathfinder' and not D&D. :)
To each their own, and more power to them. We're all gamers and I'm certain that emotional attachments aside, if we were all to sit down and play with a character we liked then the rules and editions would fade into obscurity in a very short space of time.
Long live roleplaying!
Hey Joela. You are a funkin' cool guy, and your reports about the 3PP world are more than useful. Don't let a few attitudes bother you.
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It's funny. I've always thought -- and still do -- this so-called "edition wars" was stupid. Maybe because I started role-playing just a scant few years ago, maybe because I like variety, or maybe it seemed silly to be fighting over what should just be a fun time.
Whatever the reason, I followed and played all editions, writing reviews on various Pathfinder products, demoing 4E to newbies, and recently joining the Grand Wiki project to make various Mongoose d20 OGL products available on-line.
Now I've become some sorta a target. Huh. Folks are now wondering if I'm a -- gasp! -- troll. Queries on what I think are interesting subject matters are now platforms for others to question my "loyalty" to one edition or another. I always thought such fanaticism was in the realm of religion, sports, and cars; sadly, it's reached out here at Paizo like being slapped in the face. I'm beginning to see why Sebastian and others are sometimes a bit rough on folks over what I thought, at the time, was mild commentary. And Lilith once warned me of such extremism even in once other friendly sites like Necromancer Games.
So where do I go for here? Still straddling both sides of the edition fence, of course. I'm having a blast playing/DMing in my various 3.x campaigns; had a great time with 4E at Strategicon and look forward to joining my first campaign this week; and Curse of the Crimson Throne game using the PRPG AR3 rules continues to get better and better. (I LUV the Pathfinder wizard.) I'll continue to submit my queries and voice my opinion on all three products.
I'll just be a little sadder, that's all.
I remember when in germany , (A)D&D was a roleplaying system for "losers" (much of this came from a big roleplaying guild that reviewed the system as a munchkin powergame wit tables for everything and no appeal for roleplaying at all) most of the critics didn't even know the game but had their opinion about its players - sadly these opinions often even took hold if they knew the players better. The "gamer scene" in germany was all WoD / DSA / Midgard with little mor the pity for other gamers (from "cool" independent games aside). But worst of all were gamers like me - gamers who played WoD, Cthulhu AND D&D and who even thought about the rules not being the most important tool for roleplaying. They seemed to be "heretics" for some reason and i even heard voices that wanted to see some of the banned from guild conventions for no obvious reasons (mind you - even the "poor" D&D players were not banned from those conventions - they were just pitied). The edition war sometimes reminds me of those times - times where I started to avoid other players aside from my groups and friends out of frustration. Long story made short: many of the "fencesitters" of these times still lay - the games they have fun with and with a certain regularity. Many of the other players I found out left the hobby for good - some of them when their chosen games stopped being cool / uncool for some reason, others when the rolelaying guild almost collapsed under its own weight and the convention scene in germany almost died out.
Have a tough skin and a strong stomach - and you will probably survive the "edition war" unscathed and erhas with an even greater love of roleplaying games then before.
I've played all the way from Basic onwards and plenty of non-D&D and non-Fantasy systems in between (Toon, anyone?) and what's more - I had a blast doing it.
<drops anvil on Babbage, and runs away>
<wanders around as a flat disc for a while then pops back, looking around for Wurzel>
Joela, I wouldn't worry about it. Just post what you want to talk about and ignore the BS. I know that I try to just avoid the BS when possible (unless I'm in the mood to argue).
As a side note, I know that I haven't been posting much lately, but that's because I've joined 2 4E games besides running my own and still running my MERP/Rolemaster campaign, so I've been gaming a lot.
Joela, I wouldn't worry about it. Just post what you want to talk about and ignore the BS. I know that I try to just avoid the BS when possible (unless I'm in the mood to argue).
Consider any perceived attack as coming from a place of fear and weakness and it may be easier to sympathize.
Toon, anyone?
Ohhh, bonus points for that one...
Man that was a fun one off game.
Someone said in a different thread that 3 and 4 are so different that they're basically separate games. No need to abandon one to play the other. Which makes the OPs stance quite reasonable.
When it comes to Pathfinder and their choice to stay OGL, it has more to do with the problems with/in the GSL than anything about rules. Maybe WotC will realize this and revise the GLS, but with Hasbro riding them, not so likely.
Personally, I think I'll continue to bye Paizo and convert them to 4. One of the strengths of 4 is that its easy to convert to. I refused to make my own adventures for 3rd because statting things out was so hellishly complex. So, in a way, a 3E adventure pleases a larger crowd; 3E players get their hellishly complex stat blocs, and 4E players can pretty easily convert.
We just need someplace for enthusiasts (not Paizo because of the stupid GSL) to stat up the more complex, unique critters in Pathfinder to 4E.
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I don't really get the whole "edition wars" thing myself. To be honest, 4e isn't my personal cup of tea - but that doesn't mean that I hold anything against people who enjoy it.
There are lots of things out there that other people enjoy, but that don't float my boat for one reason or another.
I'm pretty happy with 3.5 at the moment. And I am very glad that Paizo is trying to fix some of its known issues. Hopefully the game that I love will survive at least a few more years as the Pathfinder RPG.
But I accept that not everybody feels the same way. And I honestly hope that the folks who have made the switch to 4e enjoy the new edition.
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Back.
Want to thank everyone's replies to my rant(?). The break helped: I think, like several folks pointed out here and off-line that the so-called "edition" wars caught me at bad point with DMcCoy1693's comment being the last straw. Reading it now, I can see what people mean.
Anyway, rpg enthusiasm is still there but with a bit thicker skin. I've been bursting with new questions/observations on 3.x, PfRPG, and 4E, and will be sharing them shortly as well as comment on others' posts*.
Gamers unite!
Except the current spat of "I'm leaving 3.x/PfRPG to 4E" posts. If you want your farewell to be useful, at least give some helpful insight to make PfRPG even better than it is. Stating "it's not compatible" or "it's printed in the wrong country" doesn't help improve fighters or make it any easier on DMs and high-level adventures.
It's funny. I've always thought -- and still do -- this so-called "edition wars" was stupid. Maybe because I started role-playing just a scant few years ago, maybe because I like variety, or maybe it seemed silly to be fighting over what should just be a fun time.
No you are right, it is stupid. And boring.
No you are right, it is stupid. And boring.It's funny. I've always thought -- and still do -- this so-called "edition wars" was stupid. Maybe because I started role-playing just a scant few years ago, maybe because I like variety, or maybe it seemed silly to be fighting over what should just be a fun time.
AMEN
Back.
Want to thank everyone's replies to my rant(?). The break helped: I think, like several folks pointed out here and off-line that the so-called "edition" wars caught me at bad point with DMcCoy1693's comment being the last straw. Reading it now, I can see what people mean.
Well, I am glad you're back and I hope that here are no hard feelings. Like I said before, I didn't mean anything negative towards you.