A bunch of adventurers meet in an inn then go find a way into a dungeon. That's what I consider Dungeons and Dragons.
Clearly you've never actually played the game. Here's how it goes:
A bunch of adventurers meet in an inn.
One player demands that his character get drunk.
Another begins picking a fight with a random NPC.
A third player actually talks to the bearded dude in the corner to get the quest, but the fourth player determines that the party should just kill the bearded dude and get the 1000gps he promised that way instead.
A fight breaks out.
The DM throws dice at the players.
Game over.
Yeah...
That's Hackmaster or Munchkin.You forgot someone casts Magic Missile at the darkness.
Yeah...
That's Hackmaster or Munchkin.
Then why are all these people playing that and calling it D&D?
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This is the key to me. All of the rules and exceptions and stuff that made 3.0 and 3.5 have unique characters and stuff took away from the RPing in the previous edition. I play with some old college roommates. This particular group started with 2e and we had much better RPing sessions then. Combat was much faster and people got into their characters more. With 3e people became more concerned with making an uber character than RPing because that was what was new with the edition. With 4e I hope to return to RPing and less cumbersome gameplay. So far it seems combat is still tactical like in 3e, but there will be much less of the munchkin stuff...because let's face it, that is what 3e was.
So, in summary. 4e is just as much D&D as any other edition after the original....
As it is unfair to criticise 4th edition for having less options that 3rd with all the splat books it is also unfair to do it the other way round.
Just wait 2 year from now and I promise you that there is a glut of Splatbooks with a lot of overpowered Classes/Races/Powers/Feats and whatnot compared to the Core Books.For now most of the Splat books will include many Races/Classes/Powers that were playtested or given a lot of devlopment.
The longer the system is on the market, the less balanced the Splatbooks will become. There will be a power creep!
I also know some Powergamers (not Munchkins, mind you) who know a rick or two to turn your humble 2nd edition character into a viritable killing maschine. Yes, eve in 2nd you could pump up your PC!
To the OP, does it matter? A concrete decision either way influences exactly nothing.
D&D is something different to everyone. To me, it was my first character being dismembered alive by a troll - it happened to be played with the 2nd ed. rules.
So many people, so many arguments, yet in the end, it doesn't matter.
WoTC will make their money and continue publishing 4E
Paizo will continue along PFRPG until it is no longer economically feasible to do.
Every single one of us is guaranteed to have a wildly different view of what is and is not D&D.
So what is your point? I loathe 4E, but that will change nothing. It simply is. Nothing short of the tactical nuclear annihilation of WoTC headquarters, the publisher, and now everyone who purchased a copy will change that simple fact.
I would argue that D&D came in a red box, and everything after that wasn't in said red box is NOT D&D, it is AD&D, Revised 2nd, 3e, 3.5, and now 4E. Rebranded, but totally different products.
It only took James nine weeks to write the Dungeon Master's Guide. Including over the holidays...
Cause and effect? You decide :P
Sorry, couldn't resist :)
Well, the DMG is widely reckoned to be a very good reference book. The PHB is oddly organised though...
Well, the DMG is widely reckoned to be a very good reference book. The PHB is oddly organised though...
I know -- I'm just picking for fun. WotC has made it pretty easy of late :)
Forgetting for a moment IP laws and whatnot. Does anyone really believed that if WoTC stuck with 3.5e that this new game, if created by any other company, would be anything more that another fantasy RPing game amongst the myriad high quality options that already exist? 4e fans, would you have dumped 3.5e wholesale after a couple sessions of this new game if it were created by Green Ronin and called something other than D&D?
That WotC made the game and called in D&D added a lot of value to the game over that which would not have been added if it were published by any other company (except maybe White Wolf). A large part of the reason people shift to the new release is because other people shift to the new release, and each new person to buy into the new game raises the value of the game for all the people who will be playing it (network externalities). If D&D were to be published by XYZ Corp under a different name, fewer people would buy it, it would be harder to find players, and fewer publishers (if any) would be willing to provide supplements and adventures for it. Simply by being able to call the game D&D, WotC has made the new system far more valuable than it would be if it were called anything else.
So really, no, if it were to be published by anyone else (or even if it were to be published by WotC as a new game and not D&D) it would not be worth the price ($105 MSRP) to me. Because it was published that way, however, it is easily worth that price to me due to the number of other people who have already bought it or in the future will buy it.
Then why are all these people playing that and calling it D&D?Yeah...
That's Hackmaster or Munchkin.
If they get experience points for derailing the game they are not playing the game as intended. You seem to enjoy playing a parody of the game so go right ahead. It proves my point that D&D is in how you play the game. It's not all in the rulesset. Drunkard, Tavern Brawler, Crook, and NPC Slayer are obviously the roles in your game.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If they get experience points for derailing the game they are not playing the game as intended. You seem to enjoy playing a parody of the game so go right ahead. It proves my point that D&D is in how you play the game. It's not all in the rulesset. Drunkard, Tavern Brawler, Crook, and NPC Slayer are obviously the roles in your game.Then why are all these people playing that and calling it D&D?Yeah...
That's Hackmaster or Munchkin.
Sense of humor much?
Absolutely 4th edition is D&D but I don't play it and I won't. D&D is already a historical game system that started a hobby and an entertainment industry called tabletop RPGs, today we can't talk solely of D&D but of the industry of the RPGs, everyone can choose the system they want: Hackmaster, C&C, HARP, OSRIC, 3.5, Iron Gauntlets or whatever you want. D&D is a trademark the same than Batman, Spider-Man or Donald Trump's "You are fired" so don't complaint on this 4th edition D&D is another system with the only difference that the same than its predecessor is the most popular, worldwide known and the most supported of the industry.
Yeah, so shut up, everyone. In fact, screw this... no more discussion allowed on ANYTHING, from now on! :P
Just curious, Patricio, have you ever heard of something called 'Coca Cola'? Maybe you should look up its history.
I am sensing some frustration. What is really bothering you?