Skill Checks are Better than Saving Throws


New Rules Suggestions

Scarab Sages

I strongly encourage bringing back Concentration and making it a class skill for all classes (like Craft and Profession). The reason is primarily to make role-playing a part of roll-playing and having the mechanic of the game impact and encourage using dice as an arbiter of player choices.

To that end, I also want to encourage keeping skill checks as the focus of role-playing action resolution rather than shifting to saving throws. The saving throw is designed to represent luck and conditioning, rather than a player's steady application of a character's time and energy to specific skills. As such, the progression is much more uniform across similarly situated characters (i.e. all 8th level dwarf fighters will only see a +/- 3 variance on Fort saves). Skills on the other hand are one of two places where the player can really personalize his character (every level giving him between 2 and 12 points to allocate; feats being the other, more rare, opportunity). As such, it is in skill choices that a player shows mechanically the role he wants his character to fill.

As a result of this, as a DM, it is in the skill roles that I find the most fertile ground to allow the player to impact the game regularly and in line with his character concept. Rather than arbitrarily ruling on success or failure (as I did in AD&D 1st) or being able to predict without specific reference to his character sheet (as I can do in 3.5 on anything involving a saving throw), I almost always conceive of a skill DC and then discover, with the player, whether or not his character's choices bear fruit in the game.

The skill system is terrific, especially if it is applied to support better role playing. It is one of the three big benefits of 3.5 (the ohters being the d20 resolution system and the simplification/rationalization of saving throws).

As for revising it, please keep in mind what happens when you adjust the skills list:
reducing skills disproportionately helps those classes that are skill point poor, reducing the advantage of skill-intensive classes (like the Rogue) and classes with the primary attribute of Intelligence (like the Wizard)
increasing the number of skills disproportionately disadvantages skill poor classes in the same way (like the Fighter)
Which class skills are consolidated has a similar impact:
Perception disproportionately helps Rangers and other scout-type classes
Acrobatics disproportionately helps Rogues
Reducing Spellcraft/Concentration disproportionately helps Wizards/Sorcerers

Given these realities, I strongly encourage the following in light of how Pathfinder spools up the rogue and sorcerer to where they are no longer splash classes:
1) Maintain the skill consolidations as they are needed to help the Fighter retain some competitiveness with the other classes.
2) Bring Concentration back as a class skill for all classes, dropping Spellcraft entirely (Knowledge Arcana fills the niche quite nicely)
3) Give Fighters the option of adding a couple of class skills like Acrobatics, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Knowledge (dungeoneering), as a class feature (perhaps at every 3 levels?)
4) Focus whenever possible on enhancing the role-playing application of skill checks as a DM training point.

Just an EP or two from an old grognard.
In general, I love the Pathfinder improvements (except for everyone getting a feat every other level--it takes too much distinction from the fighter class)


Sutekh the Destroyer wrote:

I strongly encourage bringing back Concentration and making it a class skill for all classes (like Craft and Profession). The reason is primarily to make role-playing a part of roll-playing and having the mechanic of the game impact and encourage using dice as an arbiter of player choices.

To that end, I also want to encourage keeping skill checks as the focus of role-playing action resolution rather than shifting to saving throws. The saving throw is designed to represent luck and conditioning, rather than a player's steady application of a character's time and energy to specific skills. As such, the progression is much more uniform across similarly situated characters (i.e. all 8th level dwarf fighters will only see a +/- 3 variance on Fort saves). Skills on the other hand are one of two places where the player can really personalize his character (every level giving him between 2 and 12 points to allocate; feats being the other, more rare, opportunity). As such, it is in skill choices that a player shows mechanically the role he wants his character to fill.

As a result of this, as a DM, it is in the skill roles that I find the most fertile ground to allow the player to impact the game regularly and in line with his character concept. Rather than arbitrarily ruling on success or failure (as I did in AD&D 1st) or being able to predict without specific reference to his character sheet (as I can do in 3.5 on anything involving a saving throw), I almost always conceive of a skill DC and then discover, with the player, whether or not his character's choices bear fruit in the game.

The skill system is terrific, especially if it is applied to support better role playing. It is one of the three big benefits of 3.5 (the ohters being the d20 resolution system and the simplification/rationalization of saving throws).

As for revising it, please keep in mind what happens when you adjust the skills list:
reducing skills disproportionately helps those classes that are skill point poor, reducing the...

A great post well thought out and presented argument. As I read the rules now, it really looks like the combining of skills, which with the exception of Search, I agree with will really benifit the rogue the most. I always thought skills were the best part of the 3.x version of the game and what made it superior to 1ed and 2ed.

I also agree, and am enlightend by your statement on its impact, by the players in the game. I never considered this before and agree, it probably serves better than any other mechanic in helping visualize and interact with the role-playing environment.


My thoughts on this are similar, but with a slightly different direction.

In my group, we have added 2 new skills, thaumaturgy & faith. They are used for the casting of arcane & divine spells. They set the DC to resist the spell, which makes a high-level caster harder to resist.

On a natural "1", the spell fails, but still takes up a spell slot. On a natural "20" the target gets no save (spell resistance still applies).

This seems to work ok, so far.


blodgett wrote:

My thoughts on this are similar, but with a slightly different direction.

In my group, we have added 2 new skills, thaumaturgy & faith. They are used for the casting of arcane & divine spells. They set the DC to resist the spell, which makes a high-level caster harder to resist.

On a natural "1", the spell fails, but still takes up a spell slot. On a natural "20" the target gets no save (spell resistance still applies).

This seems to work ok, so far.

On a natural 10, both the target and caster should 'get hit'. Just for balance, of course.

Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Roleplaying Game / Alpha Playtest Feedback / Alpha Release 3 / New Rules Suggestions / Skill Checks are Better than Saving Throws All Messageboards
Recent threads in New Rules Suggestions