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While I like the new No. + Int Mod + 3 mode for skills, I have noticed how limited skill selection can become over time. Here are some thoughts on enhancing access to a variety of skills:
1. Perform check. Period. No subsets. If someone focuses on a particular instrument that should be strictly flavor.
2. Profession check. Period. No subsets. Profession seems driven as a flavor issue for roleplaying over the crunch of checks.
3. Merge Bluff and Disguise into Deception.
4. Give us back Concentration and merge Spellcraft into Knowledge (arcana). (I'd also recommend merging Use Magic Device into Knowledge (arcana), which would open more options for Knowledge subsets.
5. Re: Knowledge subsets - we're missing quite a few: Science, Tactics, and Technology to name but a few.
6. Condense Craft subsets. Smithing (armorsmithing, blacksmithing, weaponsmithing), Building (carpentry, masonry), Fabrics (clothing, stitching, non-metal armors), and so on.
7. I still think Fly fits well in Acrobatics.
8. Move Search into an Investigate check that includes researching.
I think these are probably the safer bets. I'll stay away from the more controversial ones for now.
For the most part, I agree with Your suggestions. I'll add my own recommendations to them in-turn...
1. Perform check. Period. No subsets. If someone focuses on a particular instrument that should be strictly flavor.
I would still have Vocals (singing, oratory, etc.) as a Perform skill. The fact that it can be used even when there is a weapon (or an instrument) in-hand makes it quite valuable.
Dancing, Weapon Drills and other Choreographed performances could be handled by Acrobatics (using Charisma as the keyed ability for such uses of the skill).
2. Profession check. Period. No subsets. Profession seems driven as a flavor issue for roleplaying over the crunch of checks.
I agree 100%. Even in the RealWorld™, what matters most career-wise is the diversity and WHOLE of a person's skills and experience, not merely the sum of their individual talents. From a gameplay standpoint, this change is totally worth it especially if someone should want to borrow elements from d20 Modern or user PFRPG to augment their Urban Arcana game. :)
3. Merge Bluff and Disguise into Deception.
Similarly, Perform (acting/drama/etc) could be wrapped up under the Deception (Bluff, Disguise) skill. Being as my roommate is an actress, I have arrived at the understanding that "acting" requires the actor to be brutally honest with themselves from an emotional standpoint. i.e. If they are not drawing on their own real emotions then the act will be transparent. This would seem to fit with what makes an effective bluff or disguise.
4. Give us back Concentration
I would advocate a single skill for each of the 3 physical ability scores: Athletics (Str), Acrobatics (Dex), and Perseverance (Con). Perseverence would cover both Endurance and Concentration-related checks. Athletics and Acrobatics are fairly self-explanatory.
...merge Spellcraft into Knowledge (arcana).
I agree with merging Spellcraft and Arcana. Concentration/Perseverence has no place being merged with an Intelligence-based skill. While I would argue that Concentration implies Wisdom and Willpower, because it is primarily important for Casters, for gameplay reasons it should not favor a casting class who uses that ability score for the casting.
I'd also recommend merging Use Magic Device into Knowledge (arcana), which would open more options for Knowledge subsets.
I disagree. UMD has nothing to do with Intellect and Knowledge and everything to do with Luck and force of personality. It needs to remain a Charisma-based skill.
5. Re: Knowledge subsets - we're missing quite a few: Science, Tactics, and Technology to name but a few.
From my understanding, warfare shapes history, therefore I have always used the History skill to cover knowledge of military tactics. Similarly, I would use Engineering to cover Science and Technology, though I think "Science" would then be a better title for said skill.
6. Condense Craft subsets. Smithing (armorsmithing, blacksmithing, weaponsmithing), Building (carpentry, masonry), Fabrics (clothing, stitching, non-metal armors), and so on.
I agree 100%. I also think Artistry could be used to cover poetry, sculpting, painting, song-writing, flower-arranging, calligraphy, etc.
7. I still think Fly fits well in Acrobatics.
When I see the Fly skill, the first thing that comes to mind is the Scry skill from 3.0. Yes I can see uses for it and if it's there I would feel compelled to use it, however I'm not certain if I like the existence of such a skill. I do appreciate the reports of how the rules for it have made aerial movement easier to adjudicate, I'm just not convinced that a skill is the best way to handle this.
8. Move Search into an Investigate check that includes researching.
I kind of feel that such a change would obfuscate the purpose of the skill too much. I rather like Perception vs. Stealth, I just think the write-up of the Perception rules could use some further work. i.e. For different types of searching, You use different key abilities Spot, Listen = Wisdom (taking in the whole and noticing the pieces that do not belong), Search & Research = Int (trying to find the whole among pieces).
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Thanks for your feedback. Instead of rehashing those things where we are on the same page . . . and some not, I wanted to respond to two that I perceive merit the greatest response.
Re: Profession Checks:
I agree 100%. Even in the RealWorld™, what matters most career-wise is the diversity and WHOLE of a person's skills and experience, not merely the sum of their individual talents. From a gameplay standpoint, this change is totally worth it especially if someone should want to borrow elements from d20 Modern or user PFRPG to augment their Urban Arcana game. :)
Actually, I'm considering implementing Occupations for my D&D campaigns. So, Profession becomes wealth-based - making money on the side. Occupation gives us the roleplaying fluff.
Re: Merging Use Magic Device into Knowledge (arcana)
I disagree. UMD has nothing to do with Intellect and Knowledge and everything to do with Luck and force of personality. It needs to remain a Charisma-based skill.
I guess this boils down to how you look at it. It seems to me that the more someone understands the mechanics of magic, the more he or she should be able to invoke those mechanics. Luck is one thing - and that could work with any skill/ability - not just UMD. As for force of personality, I honestly just don't connect with that. Again - it seems that this boils down to how you look at it.
That said, I'm not really on the same page with you regarding perform. Knowing musicians - it continues to amaze me how someone versed in the guitar can move to other instruments with relative ease (or at least MUCH more ease than me - the musically disinclined). Accordingly, I'd still lump the various arts together . . . or atleast grossly simplify them: Instruments, Vocals, Form. That's all you really need. (To be honest, most of my bards I've played are skalds whose Perform has been oratory - song, prose, war cries, and the like. The lyre-toting, tights-wearing bard just doesn't fit my lexicon.)
As for Perseverance - yes. no. I've seen the name be Concentration. Focus. and Endurance. In any event, whatever you call it - it has a purpose beyond Spellcasting that Paizo should really dig into. I'm disappointed that Paizo hasn't.
Thanks for the reply.
I think we were actually in agreement on the Perform skill. If my response was unclear, I was trying to say that the only perform skills needed should be Perform Instruments and Perform Vocals. What You call Perform Form I thought could be absorbed into Deception. (In my homebrew I have Vocals, Instruments, Choreography and Acting but Choreography and Acting will get absorbed into Acrobatics and Deception when I start my next campaign.)
As for UMD, I see where You are coming from. I would say that the SRD designers agree with You to a certain extent in that they allowed a Synergy bonus for that reason. Synergy bonuses are under discussion in this thread and I believe the most popular suggestion there would actually fit this line of thinking.
If I recall correctly though, a UMD check isn't actually needed by characters with the really in depth sort of magical know-how that You are speaking of. i.e. A wand with spells on the caster's spell list means they can just use it, no UMD check is necessary. Therefore, I would liken the use of UMD to the "new guy" who walks in on a bunch of engineers who are arguing over why a complex piece of machinery isn't working and then notices something obvious (it's unplugged) that they were too focused to see. Think of the devil's box from the Hell Raiser series.
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Except for the angle that Wizards cannot use magic items imbued with divine magic.
Not true.
Wizards can't use magic items imbued with spells not on their spell list.
Remember, a Bard is an arcane spell caster but can use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. No Wand of Cure Light Wounds in the game designates whether it's divine or arcane in nature, because it doesn't matter. Magic is magic, regardless of divine or arcane.
So, apparently, understanding how divine magic works in a wand is apparently different than how arcane magic works in a wand.
As SirUrza noted, it's the spell list that is the deciding factor.
However, from a flavor standpoint, I would liken it to a scientist trying to unravel a mystery of faith or (in reverse) a priest trying to intuit quantum physics. If they have diversified their studies, there's a chance each may possess the esoteric knowledge to aid their chances. However if they have strictly stuck to their own specialized area of study, then their training may not be of any use when dealing with the other field of study.
That's how I've always thought of the difference between Arcane and Divine magic. Though I think that's probably getting on a tangent.
Important thing to the matter of the UMD skill is, as a DM, I'd allow some sort of ad hoc Synergy bonus to a character with specialized knowledge so long as the player goes a good job of convincing me it is relevant. :)
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Hmmm. That's odd. I'm okay being mistaken. But IIRC, it's all rooted in the origins of scrolls. Arcane spellcasters cannot use divine scrolls. Maybe it was me who took this up an extension. But I'm pretty darn sure that's accurate regarding scrolls.
BTW - a Sorcerer is NOT restricted to the Sor/Wiz list. In our group's reading, a Sorcerer could theoretically learn how to cast divine spells. The most likely person? A Bard.
While I like the new No. + Int Mod + 3 mode for skills, I have noticed how limited skill selection can become over time. Here are some thoughts on enhancing access to a variety of skills:
1. Perform check. Period. No subsets. If someone focuses on a particular instrument that should be strictly flavor.
2. Profession check. Period. No subsets. Profession seems driven as a flavor issue for roleplaying over the crunch of checks.
3. Merge Bluff and Disguise into Deception.
4. Give us back Concentration and merge Spellcraft into Knowledge (arcana). (I'd also recommend merging Use Magic Device into Knowledge (arcana), which would open more options for Knowledge subsets.
5. Re: Knowledge subsets - we're missing quite a few: Science, Tactics, and Technology to name but a few.
6. Condense Craft subsets. Smithing (armorsmithing, blacksmithing, weaponsmithing), Building (carpentry, masonry), Fabrics (clothing, stitching, non-metal armors), and so on.
7. I still think Fly fits well in Acrobatics.
8. Move Search into an Investigate check that includes researching.
I think these are probably the safer bets. I'll stay away from the more controversial ones for now.
Well, I don't quite agree with #1. I like the varied options for Bards with that. I'd rather see something like the Linguistics/Languages set-up, where you get more types the more ranks you have in it.
#2 I kinda like this, but my husband, also our GM doesn't, so the vote on this is split.
#3 & 4 I agree with.
#5 I'm still experimenting with Knowledges and how to break them up. But, yes I agree those need to be considered. I like the Modern versions, but they don't work quite as well in a fantasy setting.
#6 hm, have you seen the Modern set of Craft subsets?
Chemical, Electronic, Mechanical, Pharmaceutical, Structural (equivalent to your Building), Visual Arts, Writing
I think they work very well, though my husband feels that Chemical and Pharmacutical should be combined. Adding the smithing (though I'd split armor, melee & ranged) and the Fabrics fills it out nicely.
#7 I'm up in the air (not really intended as a pun) on the Fly skill. No one in our games has needed it yet, so I can't really offer an opinion based on experience, though I do think it would work better as a sub-set of Acrobatics.
#8 I like this one and had already been considering adding it to our games.
Nice to know other people have similar ideas.
Also, how are you implimenting occupations? I'd thought of it but wasn't sure how to work it.