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The sniping is getting worse. Misinformation, disinformation, 4evil, kewl, munckin, creatively-challenged, MMORPG, sheeple, yada, yada, yada.
The signal to noise ratio is dropping rapidly. Any civil dialogue is drowned out quickly.
It seems that this board in unwanted by the Paizo community so why not just shut it down?
The sniping is getting worse. Misinformation, disinformation, 4evil, kewl, munckin, creatively-challenged, MMORPG, sheeple, yada, yada, yada.
The signal to noise ratio is dropping rapidly. Any civil dialogue is drowned out quickly.
It seems that this board in unwanted by the Paizo community so why not just shut it down?
You have my sympathy CWM. I've noticed that despite a lot of requests for people to stop, sometimes people just can't help but throw fire around on threads on the topic. I also hoped that it would die down. While i'm in the camp of preferring 3.5, i have to admit i have seen a few things in 4.0 that were interesting enough to me, and i enjoyed the first hand playtesting conversations that had starting to float around since release day. I'd hope that paizo won't shut down this section of the forum.
So, i guess i'm saying that i'm a member of the community, not exactly a 4e fan, and consider this part of the forum 'wanted'. I hope that it helps.
Respectfully..
Rath
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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The sniping is getting worse. Misinformation, disinformation, 4evil, kewl, munckin, creatively-challenged, MMORPG, sheeple, yada, yada, yada.
The signal to noise ratio is dropping rapidly. Any civil dialogue is drowned out quickly.
It seems that this board in unwanted by the Paizo community so why not just shut it down?
You know, I hate to say this, but I agree that there is no real need for a 4e subboard or threads here anymore. People come to this messageboard to discuss Pathfinder. And, unfortunately, most people here view 4e and Pathfinder as diametrically opposed, and mutually exclusive in all things.
People who want to discuss 4e are going to go elsewhere, really. I know I do. I can't have a 4e discussion here; it always ends badly and strangely enough, people take my appreciation for a new game system as a personal slight or something. However, I have good Pathfinder and general discussions here.
Let's leave 4e to EN World or Gleemax.
The sniping is getting worse. Misinformation, disinformation, 4evil, kewl, munckin, creatively-challenged, MMORPG, sheeple, yada, yada, yada.
The signal to noise ratio is dropping rapidly. Any civil dialogue is drowned out quickly.
It seems that this board in unwanted by the Paizo community so why not just shut it down?
1. So?
2. Partially your fault.
3. Good idea.
Way to stay classy.
1. So?2. Partially your fault.
3. Good idea.
Compared to what I'd like to say to CWM and various others, that is classy.
And I'm not part of the community. I just stop by from time to time to see what's new.
As much as I love discussing 4e, I'm happy to do so under "Other RPGs". I think it's more than fair to dispense with the 4e catagory all together nowadays.
Pathfinder has gone its own way afterall, with its own rules set. No need really to keep 4e with a whole section all to itself. Besides with all the rough history and bad reputation that the section has had--maybe folding it into Other RPGs would do it some good.
I'm pretty annoyed that everyone can't play well with each other.
Many are.
But a great many of us don't want to play well with others -- we want others to play well with us.
And agree with us.
You know, I hate to say this, but I agree that there is no real need for a 4e subboard or threads here anymore. People come to this messageboard to discuss Pathfinder. And, unfortunately, most people here view 4e and Pathfinder as diametrically opposed, and mutually exclusive in all things.People who want to discuss 4e are going to go elsewhere, really. I know I do. I can't have a 4e discussion here; it always ends badly and strangely enough, people take my appreciation for a new game system as a personal slight or something. However, I have good Pathfinder and general discussions here.
Let's leave 4e to EN World or Gleemax.
Actually, this is the only place I come for 4e info. I don't have the books yet (ship tomorrow) and find all the discussions of the actual game data (as opposed to opinions about such) very interesting and informative. I never read EN World or Gleemax or any other boards for that matter, as I find the folks around here to be generally bright, articulate, and polite (with the occasional exception of course).
Also, I am planning to convert Curse of the Crimson Throne to 4e and run it as soon as my group finishes up Rise of the Runelords. I don't see anything at all opposed about Pathfinder and 4e. If you mean the Pathfinder Role-Playing Game, then I object once again. While they are certainly different systems, they are no more opposed than 3.5 and Harn, for example, and, in fact, have a lot more in common than those two.
I very much value the 4e boards here at paizo.com and expect that there are others like me, who love the rules discussions and questions, conversion notes, and thoughts about the future and really wish that all the bickering and arguing about who killed who will all just go away.
O
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It seems that this board in unwanted by the Paizo community so why not just shut it down?
Because people are going to discuss 4E, whether or not Paizo has a forum for it. At least the 4E forum keeps that discussion (mostly) contained to that area, leaving the other forums free to discuss other things.
Crosswiredmind:
For a start, you're the first person I've seen use at least one of those words on these boards in a while, which I find ironic given that you're making a statement about misinformation amongst other things.
For another thing, 4E, the biggest RPG event of the century thus far in terms of all sorts of numbers (or at least so people, who have seen Amazon sales figures and/or reported Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro as having sold out their first print run, seem to have indicated) seems to have happened. Did you expect it not to be discussed? Or dissected? Or things mentioned in a preview article 6 months ago, but which has since been changed to be now quoted as if they were still facts?
A lot of people, who felt uneasy about something they took out of context, or which has since been altered, or which they never liked in the first place are sounding off about their pet bugbears because the edition is now at last in sight, and they feel that they can now say something as a valid response to everyone over the past year who told them 'just wait and see when it's out'; Plus there are some people on these boards who think that Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro haven't exactly helped their own case with the publicity & information campaign leading upto the release.
Does this excuse anyone? Probably not, no. I suspect that things aren't currently being helped by those who were looking forward to 4E but who have now discovered, for one reason or another, that it was not everything which they expected, venting their feelings over their anger/disappointment/disillusionment.
Give it time and the current fuss being caused by 4E will settle down, I think. Certainly when Pathfinder Beta comes out, by which point to a certain extent 4e will be 'old news' and many posters will turn their attention to saying what a good/bad job Jason Bulmahn did, and how Monte Cook is a saint/the devil incarnate for inspiring/corrupting Jason with his ideas.
When a hurricane hits sometimes all that you can do is board up the windows and hope to weather the storm as best you can.
Edit:
Meh. Taking myself too seriously. Smurf. Please feel free to take the above post with large helpings of salt.
<Wanders off looking for dire-flumphs.>
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Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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(sigh) I so didn't want someone to prove my point.... :(
Daigle: I feel the same way. This really perplexes me on why it has to get personal. I'm just saying, sadly, that this doesn't seem to be a place that you can discuss the new rules without mockery and derision anymore. It IS however a nice place to discuss Pathfinder and 3.5.
Grim: Exactly (or near-so) my feelings. Your idea is a nice baby step!
Also, I am planning to convert Curse of the Crimson Throne to 4e and run it as soon as my group finishes up Rise of the Runelords. I don't see anything at all opposed about Pathfinder and 4e. If you mean the Pathfinder Role-Playing Game, then I object once again. While they are certainly different systems, they are no more opposed than 3.5 and Harn, for example, and, in fact, have a lot more in common than those two.
I for one wouldn't argue that the two are opposed at all. They're just different. Just like Harn. Just like World of Darkness. If people want to discuss those, they go to Other RPG's just one stop down from here. I don't think anybody is going to stop talking about 4e. I certainly won't. I love tossing in my two bits whenever I can. That said I wouldn't mind at all discussing it elsewhere.
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Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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I very much value the 4e boards here at paizo.com and expect that there are others like me, who love the rules discussions and questions, conversion notes, and thoughts about the future and really wish that all the bickering and arguing about who killed who will all just go away.
O
I stand corrected, sir. As long as there are people like you here, there probably does need to be a place to post and discuss.
Love the Monty Python quote. You've made a new friend! :D
(smurf-edited)
<Fails Will save and wonders why people who say that they really like 4E are suddenly talking about 'sheeple' when nobody else has been doing that for months?>
Smurf!
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The sniping is getting worse. Misinformation, disinformation, 4evil, kewl, munckin, creatively-challenged, MMORPG, sheeple, yada, yada, yada.
The signal to noise ratio is dropping rapidly. Any civil dialogue is drowned out quickly.
It seems that this board in unwanted by the Paizo community so why not just shut it down?
I think you're misinterpreting a flare up (like message board hemorhoids)as a worsening situation. The game just came out - call it a full week if you count the illegal leak. In a few weeks things will be sorted out pretty well, and the "noise" should abate.
And as for eliminating the 4ed boards that would be a horrendous idea. While I myself intend to stick with Pathfinder and pass on 4ed, i look forward to reading the conversion threads. I'm curious to see what people like about the new system in a context I recognize, the 3.x APs. Besides, without the 4ed boards, fan conversions of the AP would not be possible.
On a personal note, I think that perhaps you ( and several others. sebastion?) take things too personally. The bar for what qualifies as offensive has dropped mighty low. I'm not saying its unwarranted. Some pretty annoying people have been razzing the 4ed fans, but some constructive criticism has been slapped down as well. Don't feed the trolls and they'll move on to greener pastures. Difficult, I know, but probably better for your disposition.
The sniping is getting worse. Misinformation, disinformation, 4evil, kewl, munckin, creatively-challenged, MMORPG, sheeple, yada, yada, yada.
The signal to noise ratio is dropping rapidly. Any civil dialogue is drowned out quickly.
It seems that this board in unwanted by the Paizo community so why not just shut it down?
1. So?
2. Partially your fault.
3. Good idea.
Smurfy post wondering if Bubbagump had been sighted on occasions on the Religious Discussion thread, and knows anything about giving people the shirt off his back as well? :(
The sniping is getting worse. Misinformation, disinformation, 4evil, kewl, munckin, creatively-challenged, MMORPG, sheeple, yada, yada, yada.
The signal to noise ratio is dropping rapidly. Any civil dialogue is drowned out quickly.
It seems that this board in unwanted by the Paizo community so why not just shut it down?
The books are just out CWM. This is the crescendo and it will fade. In a few months we'll being complaining to each other about the various aspects of 4E that we don't like even while playing it as those that don't care for it will have moved on.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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With respect, I think you're kidding yourself if you thought things were going to get better this week or next, when people are still getting the new game, digesting it, and posting their thoughts.
Yeah, it's a little rough. Yes, some people go further than they should, and we've tried to rein them in a bit. But this is probably the worst week or two since the announcement.
People need to get their reactions out of their system. Some people need to mourn a bit. Others are excited by the system and want to post about it.
Sometimes, people are dicks.
We'd like for them to not be dicks, and we'd like to foster good discussions free from posturing and B.S.
But we're also shipping all of our Gen Con product on Friday, and publishing books is more important to us than policing message boards.
If the heat is too hot right now, I suggest staying away for a couple of weeks. Tempers are bound to have mellowed out a bit in that time, and I strongly suspect that there will be a lot of positive 4e discussion (in particular how to use it with the Pathfinder APs and similar topics) in due time.
But everything is not going to get better in the week of the new edition's release, and it's naive to think otherwise.
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It's not personal: I have a serious medical condition that causes me to throw up in my mouth everytime I read something stupid. It drives a lot of my posting.
On a personal note, I think that perhaps you ( and several others. sebastion?) take things too personally.
Perhaps you need to deputize some proto-sebastions to aid in your work? What is the whole Sith nonsense from the new films "Always two there are. A master and an apprentice"
Time to start accepting applications :)
It's not personal: I have a serious medical condition that causes me to throw up in my mouth everytime I read something stupid. It drives a lot of my posting.
On a personal note, I think that perhaps you ( and several others. sebastion?) take things too personally.
(Edited to remove incitement to commit smurfonies)
Sebastian:Have you considered using the word smurf occasionally might help your disposition? :D
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Perhaps you need to deputize some proto-sebastions to aid in your work? What is the whole Sith nonsense from the new films "Always two there are. A master and an apprentice"Time to start accepting applications :)
I tried cloning once, but for some reason, the clones were all total a%!~!%!s. I couldn't stand the lot of them. Eventually, I just used the machine to perform a teleportation trick, killing a clone each time I did it. It seemed to make them angry, but I think they understood that it was for their own good.
Anyway, long story short: no more cloning.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sebastian! Erik says we can run riot until Friday! Have you considered any drive-by smurfings recently? :D For that matter using the word smurf occasionally might help your disposition.
Wait...let me reread that post...
Aw hells yeah!
HERE ME NOW, FOR I WILL SLAY ALL WHO HATE ON MY MOST BELOVED OF GAME SYSTEMS!!!
THAT'S RIGHT PAIZO POSTERS, YOU HEARD ME.
DO.
NOT.
F@@~.
WITH.
BELLA SARA!!!!
There will be no mercy!
Sebastian! Erik says we can run riot until Friday! Have you considered any drive-by smurfings recently? :D For that matter using the word smurf occasionally might help your disposition.Wait...let me reread that post...
Aw hells yeah!
HERE ME NOW, FOR I WILL SLAY ALL WHO HATE ON MY MOST BELOVED OF GAME SYSTEMS!!!
THAT'S RIGHT PAIZO POSTERS, YOU HEARD ME.
DO.
NOT.
f%!@.
WITH.
BELLA SARA!!!!
There will be no mercy!
:w00t:! :D
Wait...let me reread that post...
Aw hells yeah!
HERE ME NOW, FOR I WILL SLAY ALL WHO HATE ON MY MOST BELOVED OF GAME SYSTEMS!!!
THAT'S RIGHT PAIZO POSTERS, YOU HEARD ME.
DO.
NOT.
f*&#.
WITH.
BELLA SARA!!!!
There will be no mercy!
Sebastian, I think you just convinced me to play a smurf warlock with an unhealthy appreciation of the equine form . . . bwa ha ha ha ha . . . "I'll show you three apples high . . . "
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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But everything is not going to get better in the week of the new edition's release, and it's naive to think otherwise.
I don't think it's naive, or, to the extent it is, it's the good kind of naivete that keeps people voting and giving to African orphans. Things were terrible here and then the Pathfinder announcement came, and they settled down. It looked as though both parties were happy: people unhappy about 4e got Pathfinder and people happy about 4e were getting 4e. To have the level of hatred get cranked back up in the past week or so has been something of a shock, particularly after such a wonderful period of peace.
Anyway, I appreciate the need to run your business rather than babysit, but I can't say that I welcome a post by you that easily can be viewed as a green light for the fires to continue while Paizo is busy tending the homefront. Seems like there should be a better way of handling this than popping in to say "shit happens, try not to get any in your hair." Even saying nothing is better.
complaining about complaining is still complaining
being jerky to jerks still makes you a jerk
edit: this isn't aimed at anyone specifically, just an observation.
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Contributor
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I just want to say that I sincerely hope that the 4E forums stay up. Right now I expect I will be playing 4E and Pathfinder in the future, and wanting to discuss both. It's likely that I'll convert an AP to 4E (possibly the Savage Tide, maybe a Pathfinder Path). These are all things I want to discuss here.
Not only is this the best place to talk about Paizo adventures, I enjoy this community in general, and have a pretty good feel for a lot of people here. Even hearing the opinion of someone I disagree with is usually helpful if I know where that person is coming from.
I have no interest in moving to ENWorld or the WotC forums. I check them occasionally when I'm given a juicy link here, but that's it. I don't plan to stop posting at Paizo, and I don't need more messageboards to suck my time out.
I do hope folks can stop crapping on each other soon. It's a disservice to this fine company and community.
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I think it is important to remember that this is a Paizo board. Directly or Indirectly how you act (and re-act) is a reflection on Paizo.
Being asses to anyone who comes to talk about 4E may drive potential Paizo customers away.
As people pick up the 4E rules, some of them are not going to like them. They are going to be looking for an alternative. IMHO Paizo has the best alternative available. A 4E section may be of interest to them for conversion and other information.
Be Excellent To Each Other! Smurf!
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"s%!% happens, try not to get any in your hair."
But that's what makes SHAMpoo the best kind of Poo.
***
As a 3e enthusiast [who has nonetheless felt the compulsion to get the 4e books now because a) it's probably the cheapest I could ever get them, b) I'd like to actually know what I'm talking about, and c) let's face it, I'm a geek,] I must say I have also been quite disgusted by some of my fellow 3e enthusiasts over the last week(s).
I guess it is to be expected that people would still be trying to find ways to justify their preconceptions about 4e, and I can understand the desire to find "proof" of these prejudices, but some of us are really either grasping at straws or just outright grabbing the whole damn bale of hay and calling it manure before it has even gone through the horse.
There are things I don't like about 4e. There are things I do like. I'm looking foreward to discussing them with people here and I hope that they can wait out the crapstorm that's currently brewing, and we can get to some good digestion.
Actually, I can see plenty of slinging coming from both sides. Now that the game is out, critics are going to get nit-picky and dissect it and early adopters are going to get dismissive of the objections because they aren't looking at the whole of the system. Both are going to present one-sided arguments to bolster their own corners, when in reality the only judgement that can be made is primarily the aesthetic one of whether you like the game or not and is thus devoid of any moral content or objective correctness.
Happened with 3e too. Probably happened with 2e, though the internet rambling was almost certainly a lot smaller.
Blah blah blah no more sniping blah blah my feelings are hurt blah bah blah blah 4E blah 3E blah blah uncivil blah blah I'm right blah blah Sebastian blah blah blah dick blah blah naive blah blah chocolate cheescake blah blah deep fried pizza.
AC 12, prone
Bella what...!?!?!?!
I am infused with an insane desire for horsey cards!!!
MUST.
GET.
THEM.
ALL.
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Creative Director
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Blah blah blah
So... I've been wondering, Mr. (or Miss?) Dead Horse... are you the same dead horse that the giant geckos were going to eat on page 89 of Pathfinder #1? Or are you the same dead horse that's attracted the giant flies on page 84 of Pathfinder #8?
It's kind of a trick question. Because I think that it's the same horse in both pictures.
I, for one, don't want these forums going anywhere. On ENWorld everyone agrees with me already. Those rare souls that don't, I can't yell at.
Jim agrees.
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My take was that the 4e threads now have something concrete to talk about, rather than trading rumours and opinions. As such, even some of the hold-outs are putting forward fairly nuanced views rather than blanket, wall-to-wall loathing. And the people who like 4e are actually talking about the game as they have it in their hands. Personally, I'm heartened to see posts like "Which class and race has you most pumped" or whatever it is titled - actually talking about 4e rules. Even if I never buy the game I see this as a positive step for these boards, and one that is likely to accelerate and push out the negative stuff once the novelty and the initial critiques fade into the background.
I am much in the same boat as Rambling Scribe.
I bought the books and I'm going to give 4e a fair trial, running a game with it before I decide whether I like it or hate it.
I'm also going to buy the Pathfinder RPG book, so I am interested in the rules discussions and developments of both Pathfinder and 4e.
Don't remove the 4e board, please.
I just want to say that I sincerely hope that the 4E forums stay up. Right now I expect I will be playing 4E and Pathfinder in the future, and wanting to discuss both. It's likely that I'll convert an AP to 4E (possibly the Savage Tide, maybe a Pathfinder Path). These are all things I want to discuss here.
Not only is this the best place to talk about Paizo adventures, I enjoy this community in general, and have a pretty good feel for a lot of people here. Even hearing the opinion of someone I disagree with is usually helpful if I know where that person is coming from.
I have no interest in moving to ENWorld or the WotC forums. I check them occasionally when I'm given a juicy link here, but that's it. I don't plan to stop posting at Paizo, and I don't need more messageboards to suck my time out.
I do hope folks can stop crapping on each other soon. It's a disservice to this fine company and community.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Things were terrible here and then the Pathfinder announcement came, and they settled down. It looked as though both parties were happy: people unhappy about 4e got Pathfinder and people happy about 4e were getting 4e. To have the level of hatred get cranked back up in the past week or so has been something of a shock, particularly after such a wonderful period of peace.
I think you're seeing is in part the result of an influx of new site users following the release of the game, frankly. We've seen a huge spike in downloads of the Pathfinder Alpha over the last week or so.
Also, hearing that your sacred cow has been slain and actually seeing and smelling the corpse are two different things, and some people are going to need to get over their objections all over again. One way to do that is to go online and b~~+% in a forum. These changes were obviously going to upset a significant cohort of the D&D audience, and what you're seeing here is simply part of that inevitable process.
Anyway, I appreciate the need to run your business rather than babysit, but I can't say that I welcome a post by you that easily can be viewed as a green light for the fires to continue while Paizo is busy tending the homefront. Seems like there should be a better way of handling this than popping in to say "s!&& happens, try not to get any in your hair." Even saying nothing is better.
I disagree, obviously.
These changes were always going to upset people.
Post what you like about the game. Try not to get so caught up in what other people think.
It'll blow over.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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My take was that the 4e threads now have something concrete to talk about, rather than trading rumours and opinions. As such, even some of the hold-outs are putting forward fairly nuanced views rather than blanket, wall-to-wall loathing. And the people who like 4e are actually talking about the game as they have it in their hands. Personally, I'm heartened to see posts like "Which class and race has you most pumped" or whatever it is titled - actually talking about 4e rules. Even if I never buy the game I see this as a positive step for these boards, and one that is likely to accelerate and push out the negative stuff once the novelty and the initial critiques fade into the background.
My point exactly.
Blah blah blahSo... I've been wondering, Mr. (or Miss?) Dead Horse... are you the same dead horse that the giant geckos were going to eat on page 89 of Pathfinder #1? Or are you the same dead horse that's attracted the giant flies on page 84 of Pathfinder #8?
It's kind of a trick question. Because I think that it's the same horse in both pictures.
I am the UBIQUITOUS dead horse (and omnipresent too!). I exist in all worlds and all times. I cannot be killed (but my carcass can get really stinky). I am unslayable. YOU CAN NOT KILL ME!
... errr... cuz I'm dead...
*Feasts on the roast beef of the Vancian sacred cow*
"Mmmm... sacrilicious..."
