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Your god dies, your land falls into turmoil. There is not work, your family goes hungry and you see your neighbors fall under the heel of brigands and looters. Your daughter's virtue is stolen, and your young son's eye is scooped out in a vain effort to protect her. The land succumbs to plague and disease. There are no healers.
There is no fear of the law. There is no law.
Then, blessed be, comes Asmodeus. He is the scourge, the great terror, and he crushes all wrong-doers under his cloven hooves! Bandits are flayed, carpet baggers are bled and the foreigners who would seek to conquer our broken land are beheaded.
Why do I worship Asmodeus? Because there is bread on my table, coin in my pocket and healers in the temples. Our fallen women - so many of them shamed in the breaking - are now sacred in his eyes. Yes, he casts a long shadow, but who are we to question a god? Asmodeus has found us, and we are renewed.
Now, let us be off to today's executions.
Creative Director
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I think the idea that the god matches the alignment of the worshiper to a somewhat modern conception at times.
That only applies to clerics, though. There's nothing preventing a chaotic good fighter from worshiping Asmodeus... but if he's SERIOUS about it, his alignment will eventually start shifting toward lawful evil.
A better example might be all the mercenaries and crusaders in the Iomedean Crusade against the Worldwound. Those crusaders likely cover all nine alignments, and even though they're up there, in theory, with Iomedae's blessing and in theory worship her... the ones who are evil or chaotic are certainly not favored members of her flock and are likely hunted and prosecuted by the actual clerics and paladins.
As for why someone would worship Asmodeus? Power is certainly an option. Another is fear. And another, as is the case in parts of Cheliax, is that it might be illegal to worship anyone else.
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As for why someone would worship Asmodeus? Power is certainly an option. Another is fear. And another, as is the case in parts of Cheliax, is that it might be illegal to worship anyone else.
Oooh, that last one's perfect. And leads to so many possibilities. Say the PCs bring someone in to be tried rather than actually killing them (work with me here. It might happen). Only to find that as they do not worship Asmodeus, their testimony is invalid, and furthermore they are imprisoned for assaulting a Cheliax citizen, trials not being necessary for those who do not worship the God of Contracts. And it's all nice and legal, too.
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Better to Serve in Heaven than Reign in Hell. :)
LOL
I've got a great story about this from when I was an undergad. For a moment I really thought I had Milton (and my professor) by the balls with my observation.
I'm taking a course titled "Paradise Lost." And we're discussing Satan, as he's just been b1tch-smacked down to hell with the other devils. The other devils look around at the wasteland Milton describes and are none too happy. So Satan stands before them and says It's better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven.
Famous line, right?
And I'm shocked! I mean, Paradise Lost is pretty much the unanimous pick for "The Greatest Work in the English Language. Ever." For real, nothing else really comes close.
And I, a mere undergrad, have found a major flaw!!
So I confront my prof with all the arrogance of a true pric and say Wait a minute, Milton screwed up! Satan tells his devils it's better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven, BUT... the devils AREN'T ruling in Hell; SATAN is. The devils are still servants -- only now they're serving in Hell!
Boy was I proud of myself.
And my professor responded vehemently, an almost satanic smirk on his face, Satan is a L I A R!.
-W. E. Ray
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As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
Adolf Hitler
Dude, I'm sure you got those quotes wrong. It absolutely had to be Puppy Bush who said that!
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(A worshiper's alignment matches the god's) only applies to clerics, though. There's nothing preventing a chaotic good fighter from worshiping Asmodeus... but if he's SERIOUS about it, his alignment will eventually start shifting toward lawful evil.
I dunno, James, this seems nigh impossible to pull off in game play, even for an NPC. How could you pull this off with a PC, or even an NPC for that matter?
Let me throw this out there: back in the mid-90s my gaming group had a weeks-long discussion on this very thing. One of the Players had mentioned their disgust with paladins (I have always hated Sturm but loved the idea of playing a paladin). Early in our discourse the DM, who was easily our best Player and the DM who I most wished to emulate made a comment: You can be a LG jerk. You can always gripe, complain and even be rude BUT... you always do what is right, even if you b&~*# about it the whole time.
Needless to say the group got a lot of mileage out of this discussion and we all eventually agreed with our DM. But in the times that we tried to apply this in-game it was always akward and/or confusing.
My conclusion has been that while this "LG jerk" or "CG devil-worshipper" may be possible (even common) in real life, it's not successful at the gaming table.
-W. E. Ray
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Creative Director
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I dunno, James, this seems nigh impossible to pull off in game play, even for an NPC. How could you pull this off with a PC, or even an NPC for that matter?
More to the point... I suspect that a fighter who worships Asmodeus won't stay Chaotic Good for long. Actually, my argument doesn't really hold much water at all when you look at alignment the way I do... in that alignment is a reflection of a character, not a shackle. It's fluid. You (be you a PC or an NPC) are free to do anything you want, and your alignment changes as needed to match. (If you change all the time, it'll probably settle at chaotic neutral.) A player of the game or the GM gets to choose a character's alignment, but that character does not, in other words.
A CG devil worshiper isn't really possible, in other words, because the type of personality that would earn a CG alignment isn't the type that would worship a devil.
As for being a jerk... that's not really good behavior anyway. A paladin is only a jerk when the player and GM and writer are being lazy.
And in real life... alignments don't matter anyway because they don't exist any more than armor class or hit points, so it's silly (and pointless) to draw parallels there.
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You know, though, the more I think about it the more I'd like to try it out. I mean, hell, it's been 12+ years since I ever tried to run a "confused alignment" character.
Unfortunately the group I'm running now just started and they're complete newbs; I think I'll have to wait a while.
Any suggestions on how one may pull it off?
-W. E. Ray
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Creative Director
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You know, though, the more I think about it the more I'd like to try it out. I mean, hell, it's been 12+ years since I ever tried to run a "confused alignment" character.
Unfortunately the group I'm running now just started and they're complete newbs; I think I'll have to wait a while.
Any suggestions on how one may pull it off?
-W. E. Ray
The easiest way is to just not have the players choose their alignments. If they're all playing wizards and sorcerers and fighters and rogues the like who don't have alignment restrictions to their class... just let them do what they need to do, and you as GM keep track of their actions and assign alignments as you see fit in the case of someone casting detect evil on them or they find a magic weapon that has alignment stuff going on.
If some of the players are playing clerics or paladins or barbarians or monks or other classes that have strict alignment stuff, remind them at the start that they need to play their character with those personality traits in mind. And then do the same for them; let them do what they want and keep track of their alignments. Soon as their actions start to indicate they're drifting from alignment, warn them by saying something like, "Conan would never take that tax-man's demands lying down!" or "A true disciple of the Way of the Crane wouldn't run naked through the street!" or "As you contemplate selling the baby, a twinge of guilt rises in your mind—perhaps Sarenrae's trying to tell you something?" If they keep at it, then pow. They loose their class benefits or whatever, and would probably have more fun playing the character they want to play rather than the one they chose to begin with anyway...
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Then, blessed be, comes Asmodeus. He is the scourge, the great terror, and he crushes all wrong-doers under his cloven hooves! Bandits are flayed, carpet baggers are bled and the foreigners who would seek to conquer our broken land are beheaded.
Why do I worship Asmodeus? Because there is bread on my table, coin in my pocket and healers in the temples. Our fallen women - so many of them shamed in the breaking - are now sacred in his eyes. Yes, he casts a long shadow, but who are we to question a god? Asmodeus has found us, and we are renewed.
Fantastic.
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I see the American government, media, evangelical hucksters, War on drugs, and military industrial complex as Lawful Evil. That is an opinion, and not an invitation for outraged people to flame me.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
I think the above institutions would be better described as Lawful Stupid. As with all things that the human race puts its hands into, there is good and bad in all things. For every Fred Phelps, there is a Mother Theresa, for every Bill O'Riley there is a Edward R. Murrow. In matters of government, media, religion and military there will always be those that pull it in different directions.
Well put.
do the regular folk even recognise the existence of the outer planes?
As players, you have a gods-eye view of how the game-setting is.
NPCs, especially low-level ones, only hear how their after-life might be.
Replace 'player' with 'Thetan' and 'NPC' with 'Average Joe Public' and you've got a religion right there.
Or something like that - the comment just rung bells with my view of what is a very secretive cult...
A true disciple of the Way of the Crane wouldn't run naked through the street!
You don't seem to know anything about the Way of the Crane. :P
Essentially, you're asking why people get into and stay in abusive relationships. There's a few notable differences about an intimate faith-based relationship as opposed to a physically intimate relationship, but, consider the parallels.
1. Because I deserve it: This works both ways. The selfish narcissist thinks that nothing is more important than what they've convinced themselves they deserve; certainly your pain comes second to their own. On the other hand, those who have been abused survive these relationships by rationalizing that abusive relationships are what they deserve.
2. Because Asmodeus really loves me. It makes me feel special. False, of course, but imagine how seductive that would be with a god, instead of a seductive partner. Especially when they provide you with spells.
3. Because you hope that they will change. While abusers (gods, men, or monsters) will usually promise to change during the honeymoon stage, it is rare for an abuser to change while still in a relationship. This is unlikely with Asmodeus, but not with people in thrall to priests of Asmodeus
4. While you are not the cause of the abuse, it's less scary if you're to blame, because then, at least, you're in control. So you hope that by acting better or more in line with their demands/commandments, you'll make everything good again.
5. It's not so bad and everybody does it. False, of course, but possibly true to that person's life experience. And it's Cheliax.
6. They draw a link between love and violence. Again, violence begets violence. Its damage gets passed down by generation. People who were abusers were very often abused themselves. This is sad, and worth a paladin's pity, but also damning, as nobody knows better the damage such behavior can do and not everyone who was abused becomes an abuser.
7. Hopelessness: The idea of being happy without your current deity may seem impossible now.
8. Ideology. You're falsely made to believe that it's your biological fate to be treated this way.
9. Embarrassment and shame often keep people in an abusive relationship, with gods or humans, for quite some time.
10. Financial dependence. All of your professional contacts are with this god. Where else are you going to get spells? Plus, you've made all these enemies. You need those spells. If anyone good finds out about your relationship with this god, they'll drop you socially, attack you, arrest you. Where else are you going to go?
11. You feel you have a lack of supportive relationships. The good guys will never believe you, you fear they'll smite you, and everyone you care about you've alienated or left to be with this all-consuming god.
12. Fear: This all-knowing, extremely powerful god will be ANGRY if I leave.
13. You're in the hands of an angry god, but at least you're not alone.
14. You're loyal. It's your best trait. It's what makes you feel good about everything you've done and you've stayed that way despite everything that has been done to you.
15. GUILT. With gods, we're dealing with world-class manipulators pulling the guilt-trips of a lifetime. Evil deities are world-class sociopaths.
16. Can you say, self-medication? Dependency on drugs or alcohol can play a part in staying in abusive relationships.
Given all of this stuff, please consider the awesome courage that it takes for someone to admit that their life's become unmanageable and their relationship intolerably abusive and to seek change. The miracle isn't that so many people get trapped and stay trapped in their abusive relationships with gods and men. The miracle is that so many people get out.
Source:
http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/...whytheystay.htm
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First one must abandon the traditional Judeo-Christian ideas of god and good and evil.
Asmodeus would be a perfectly reasonable choice for a deity as any other if it suited the personality of the person in question. While Asmodeus may be LE his philospohy will appeal to LN people as well who is likely to make up the laiety (sp?).
For comparison one can look at the 1830s with the Thuggees in India. And remember in ancient Egypt the worship of Set was not banned. In fact the Setis are named after the "evil" god. Seti I was a perfect example of worshipping an "evil" god. Set represented agression and power, exactly what an expanding empire is looking for. In fact one of the Setis (Seti I I think but not sure) even said that the Pharoahic seat was a worldly manifestation of Set, not Horus.
People who are repressed and want power to fight back will be interested in an evil god. People wanting to expand their power will be interested in an evil god. People wanting more wealth will too.
Some would overtly accept the evil aspect, others would accept the power but believe they are the only good ones in the world, all others are actually the evil ones. Some might feel they are so smart they can out wit the devil (hubris). Some will be raised to follow Asmodeus.
And lastly, my favorite, some might not even realize they worship Asmodeus, instead worshiping some "Elder Elemental" or whatever that is a front.
And remember in ancient Egypt the worship of Set was not banned. In fact the Setis are named after the "evil" god. Seti I was a perfect example of worshipping an "evil" god. Set represented agression and power, exactly what an expanding empire is looking for. In fact one of the Setis (Seti I I think but not sure) even said that the Pharoahic seat was a worldly manifestation of Set, not Horus.
To be fair, Set wasn't originally portrayed as an evil god. He was demonized in myth when his followers fell out of power. (Come to think of it, that's true of most of D&D's evil gods, demons, and devils.)
Typically when a culture reveres an evil god, it is viewed as a necessary evil. Sure sacrificing people is bad, but it's better than letting the sun extinguish (although, yes, this was a lie of political convenience). As for Asmodeus and Cheliax - sure diablo-fascism is bad, but it's better than anarchy. The choice is bargain with devils or let an empire collapse - some people fear change more than hell.
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I was reading a series of alternate history books (Eric Flint's 1632) recently and he brought up something I hadn't really considered before. After the Protestant revolution, but before the development of proper nation states, there was this long period of short lived empires. The thirty years war was sort of the peak of the period I'm talking about. Anyways, during this time the religion of the various empires would be determined by the ruler. So if the ruler was protestant, then his subjects were protestants. If he was catholic, then his subjects were catholic. Flint brings this up because some of his major characters are Germans whose land has been in a constant state of flux as Sweden, Spain, and France fight over it. And so in the lifetime of one character, a twenty year old woman, she's "been" protestant twice and catholic twice.
Applying that idea to this scenario, a good deal of the population may not believe in the concept of freedom of religion (and may not have even been exposed to the idea), and the culture may embrace the idea that the subjects of a ruler are bound to embrace the religion of that ruler.
So if the King and the aristocrats that form his power base are all worshippers of Asmodeus, the entire population may venerate Asmodeus regardless of their alignment. They may even find it odious, but simply be unable to conceive of rejecting the state religion. If they are required by law to tithe to the church of Asmodeus, and priests of Asmodeus get the same kind of special privileges that the Catholic church enjoyed in the middle ages, then people will pay respect to the church out of simple fear.
It's also quite possible that the masses don't really know anything about the reality of Asmodeus. I can easily imagine the Church of Asmodeus looking almost exactly like the Catholic Church, but with more of a "Buddy Christ" sort of feel, like Asmodeus is your pal and he's going to make everything all right.
I was reading a series of alternate history books (Eric Flint's 1632)
Good Book
Applying that idea to this scenario, a good deal of the population may not believe in the concept of freedom of religion ...So if the King and the aristocrats that form his power base are all worshippers of Asmodeus, the entire population may venerate Asmodeus regardless of their alignment...then people will pay respect to the church out of simple fear.
I agree with all of that. Since the ruling house of Cheliax worships Asmodeus, the vast majority of the ruling class probably worships Asmodeus as well, or at least fakes it. As I said in an earlier post, anyone with the means and an opposed alignment would probably emigrate. To some extent, what the lower classes think and do is less important. They are probably free to worship some of the other gods, but the temples and priests will never be as powerful as those of Asmodeus. And if the temple of Asmodeus wants something, it gets it.
It's also quite possible that the masses don't really know anything about the reality of Asmodeus. I can easily imagine the Church of Asmodeus looking almost exactly like the Catholic Church, but with more of a "Buddy Christ" sort of feel, like Asmodeus is your pal and he's going to make everything all right.
I don't agree with this part. In a fantasy universe, you don't necessarily have to sugarcoat things to get your way and have people follow you. You just bind some devils, step up and say
"Attention all citizens of the Cheliax Empire, we have Assumed Control."
You don't have to make any excuses, because you have bound devils at your command. And, it's pretty tough to make excuses, because the bound devils you have at your command make it extremely unlikely that you eat rainbows and poop butterflies. But I suppose it's possible you would still make some excuses. "The devil is bound, it's all under control".
But I look at the art with the guy whipping slaves through the streets and lauging, and it makes me thing these guys aren't too sublte.
Cluster bombs aren't any more or less evil than human wave attacks.
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Hmm, not really related to Cheliax, but people probably pray to Asmodeus regardless of alignment when it comes to his specialties. In much the same way as you might make a sacrifice to Urgathoa in times of sickness, when they're about to make a deal or sign a contract there's probably more than a few people who will pray to Asmodeus beforehand to help them make the deal that's best for them and spot the tricks of the other side.
It's like if there were only one lawyer in the world; he's hideously corrupt and he'll charge you more than you can afford, but he's a damn good lawyer, and if you've got a twisty legal problem he's the only one you can go to...
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
My father is a political science professor and taught this for years.
I still think cluster bombs are evil, though. No stupid man would have made such a sinister and effective weapon.
Better to Serve in Heaven than Reign in Hell. :)
I've got a great story about this from when I was an undergad.
I suppose that gets discussed in every Milton course. It seems the other fallen angels aren't listening to what Lucifer is saying critically, they're just gripped by his rhetoric, mesmerized by his charisma. I say this thinking back on Beelzebub's speech - he asks some questions but doesn't think of any answers, he just gets them from Satan. My take on serving Asmodeus is that mental indolence might play a part for a lot of people. (Must_avoid_extending_this to worshipers_in_RL_religions....gaaaaah!)
This brings to mind an excellent suggestion for anyone who has a little literary acuity and an interest in it. Pick up a copy of Paradise Lost and read Satan's speeches; doing so could not only help answer the OPs question but could also go a fair way toward fleshing out what kind of god Asmodeus is. Myself, I picture him as being like Milton's Satan, but having got out from under God's thumb.
One thing to keep in mind is that in the Real World, most people assume the Evil = Wrong (bad, naughty, worthy of punishment, not right, to be avoided, to be denied, to be repudiated, etc.)
Most people in the real world will at least Rationalize their actions when they're pulling a "Dick Move" that someone else might interpret as Evil. (It's okay to cut off this guy's head because he's an infidel, it's okay to torture this guy because he's an enemy of freedom). Being "right" in the real world might give your actions a "get out of evil free card". Depends on who you can fool ("all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time...")
In the game world, the vast majority of evil beings have no need to rationalize their decision to be evil. Humans are great at rationalization, but a lot of the bad guys in D&D aren't even human.
In a fantasy world, evil is just another perfectly valid option on the menu. It's the bottom row in the Harrow reading. No excuses needed.
I think this is key. It's a huge difference in outlook.
In Golarion, Evil is not "Wrong". (not necessarily) It's just the opposite of Good. If you're good, you think it's wrong, and you work against it. But the evil guys will be working against you all the way with a "clear conscience", no excuses, no remorse.
When the OP asks "Why does someone chose to worship Asmodeus?", they're bringing all of their real world "curltural baggage" into the discussion, and I don't think it's useful. It's just like looking at what some other culture considers a food delicacy and sayying "Ewwww, why would anyone eat that?" (because even though it's a bug, it tastes good and has lots of protein?).
Golarion is a fantasy world with magic and gods and devils and all that. Therefore, the culture is somewhat alien to us. When you read the Gazetteer, you can see all sorts of parallels with European/World history. Each country is sort of an island in time and space that is similar to a point in time and space in our world. But the magic and everything else make it different enough that our "cultural baggage" skews our perceptions too much.
I think this is what drove Timespike and Robert what's-his-name away from the discussion.
When you're trying to figure out why someone would worship Asmodeus, don't bother to look too much at the real world, because it's not going to help you understand. "Bush and America are clearly evil, but they say they're good, so clearly it's easy for people to fool themselves and beleive the lie, blah, blah, blah..." F#ck You. I didn't vote for him.
I have a pastor friend who related the story of a deacon's meeting where one member of the congregation stood up and said, "What about the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules." He said this because he wanted the church to take a certain direction that it looked like people were leaning away from. He ultimately decided that threatening to end his tithing might compel people to see things his way.
That man surely does not believe himself to be evil, but he'd fit right in with the Church of Asmodeus.
I have a pastor friend who related the story of a deacon's meeting where one member of the congregation stood up and said, "What about the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules." He said this because he wanted the church to take a certain direction that it looked like people were leaning away from. He ultimately decided that threatening to end his tithing might compel people to see things his way. That man surely does not believe himself to be evil, but he'd fit right in with the Church of Asmodeus.
Wow, that's an unbelievably harsh accuasation! I'm speechless!
Fortunately, my fingers aren't paralyzed, so I can still type. ;^)
You're implying that someone is evil if they want to stop making a voluntary charitable donation to a charity they feel may be drifting from its original purpose? I find that hard to accept.
It's impossible to tell without any details, but it sounds a bit arrogant for the pastor and congregation to assume that their opinion on where to spend the tithes is infalible (although the same applies to the guy in question).
It's definately jerky for someone to stand up and threaten pull out their money over some sort of dispute over where the donations get spent. And if he's one of the wealthier members of the congregation, I imagine it would sting. But if he doesn't want to spend the money on "kicking puppies", I don't see how you can call it evil act.
But if he doesn't want to spend the money on "kicking puppies", I don't see how you can call it evil act.Oh, now even kicking puppies is wrong. Goodbye, you judgemental zealots.
Don't blame me dude! It says so on the TV Tropes wiki! Teh internets never lie!
Wow, that's an unbelievably harsh accuasation! I'm speechless!Fortunately, my fingers aren't paralyzed, so I can still type. ;^)
You're implying that someone is evil if they want to stop making a voluntary charitable donation to a charity they feel may be drifting from its original purpose? I find that hard to accept.
It's impossible to tell without any details, but it sounds a bit arrogant for the pastor and congregation to assume that their opinion on where to spend the tithes is infalible (although the same applies to the guy in question).
It's definately jerky for someone to stand up and threaten pull out their money over some sort of dispute over where the donations get spent. And if he's one of the wealthier members of the congregation, I imagine it would sting. But if he doesn't want to spend the money on "kicking puppies", I don't see how you can call it evil act.
Actually, I'm not implying anything, outside of what I said. Or accusing anyone of anything, for that matter. The idea that religious decisions should be made by the largest tither doesn't really jibe with Good. It would fit very well with a Neutral god of Wealth or Merchants...or with a more might-makes-right type of church like Asmodeus. Notice, by the rules, you don't have to be evil to join an evil church, but you do have to be morally ambiguous. Per the discussion above.
It's strange that you mention "kicking puppies." Would it have been evil of him to threaten that to try and stop the church from providing aid to Hurricane Katrina victims? I'm not even necessarily saying that would be evil, anymore than refusing to tithe a church that kicks puppies would be a good act (since he could just stop attending or call the ASPCA if he really wanted to stop it.) Please don't jump to conclusions.
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For an example of the worship of an evil "deity" by otherwise "good" or "neutral" people, see Michael Shea's The A'Rak. Briefly, the title entity promises and delivers wealth and protection to a nation, in return for a few trifles...yes, its spawn can kill and eat solitary travelers at their whim, but that doesn't happen very often. Oh, and there's the annual Lottery, but really only a handful of people get chosen for sacrifice to the A'Rak every year. Most people aren't affected at all by the bad parts, and everyone benefits from the gold and protection, so why make waves?
Actually, I'm not implying anything...
I think you did imply something with your statement. When you said "That man surely does not believe himself to be evil" and then follow up with "but he'd fit right in with the Church of Asmodeus." I took that to mean that you do think he's evil. It seemed like a harsh judgement, absent any context.
The idea that religious decisions should be made by the largest tither doesn't really jibe with Good.
I'm not sure that where the church allocates it's donations is really a religious decision. The discussion is more "community bookkeepping" without much alignment to it.
It's strange that you mention "kicking puppies."
It's not that strange. The concept is a standard measurement of evil vs. redeemability. There's a page about it on the TV Tropes Wiki. If you're willing to kick a dog, you're beyond any hope of redemption. It's okay for the audience to dislike you and your doom will surely follow.
Would it have been evil of him to threaten that to try and stop the church from providing aid to Hurricane Katrina victims?
I think that would depend on his motivations for changing where the funding goes, and what his alternative use for the money is. His motivations might be evidence of an evil alignment. If he gets the money re-directed and increases the suffering in the world, maybe it's an evil act.
I'm not even necessarily saying that would be evil, anymore than refusing to tithe a church that kicks puppies would be a good act (since he could just stop attending or call the ASPCA if he really wanted to stop it.)
Agreed. And a more mature way to handle the issue would be to change churches without trying to bully anyone first. But without any context, it's hard to make an alignment value jugement on the guy's actions.
Please don't jump to conclusions.
I don't think I was too far out of line in my interpretation of your statement. I'm assuming this is a Christian congregation of some kind, since you used the word "pastor", as opposed to "rabbi" or whatever. I think that if you told anyone who considered themselves a Christian that they would "fit in" with Asmodeus , they would be offended, and rightly so. (Assuming they knew that Asmodeus was an evil deity analogous to Satan.)
Being a selfish jerk might be worth a few "sin points", but I don't think it's time to declare the guy beyond redemption and give him directions to the nearest satanic cult. Cut the guy some slack.
I don't think I was too far out of line in my interpretation of your statement.
Well, I guess this is where we just have to agree to disagree. Ironically, in your dissection, your arguments against what you think I mean are pretty much the same as what I originally said. Seems like you took my post as some sort of comment or reply to something you've said somewhere in the last 100 or so posts, that's too bad. Once you get to the point where you start cutting up the other person's comment and arguing that you know what he means better than he does is where I get off the boat. I hope it works out for you. Have a nice evening.
You see? Real world conversations about relgion and politics is never a good idea on a fantasy role-playing game forum. It always leads to frustrations, anger and someone always feeling b-u-t-t-hurt.
Oh gosh, you're right. Nobody should ever get their feelings hurt, and anger... on the internet? JUST PLAIN WRONG.
Everything should always be calm and happy.
Let's all be happy people now and forget the real world.
You see? Real world conversations about relgion and politics is never a good idea on a fantasy role-playing game forum. It always leads to frustrations, anger and someone always feeling b-u-t-t-hurt.
I hate to be the guy who said "I told you so."
Hey, Robert came back! You said you were leaving but you were just lurking. Busted! ;^) Did you see I mentioned you in my earlier "wall of text" post? Sorry I was too lazy to page back and get your name right...
By the way, I thought the technical term was "b#tt-sore".
I hope Kelso had a nice swim after he got off the boat. And I still think that regardless of what he thinks about the guy, what he actually wrote was kind of harsh. /[Last Word] (maybe)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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It makes perfect sense to me that when the god Aroden died, his chosen people of Cheliax found themselves suddenly vulnerable and retreated to a more lawful atmosphere. They wanted security. Individual liberties were luxuries they could no longer afford. And the Churches of Tyranny were waiting with ready-made security contracts.So, people are willing to put up with the evil, in order to get the lawful. People will eventually be selling their kids to Asmodeus, but it'll be framed as "registering" the children with the Church "for their own safety". The fine print in those registration forms can't really mean what a plain reading would suggest.
This is the case exactly.
Aroden's death is a game-changer in terms of the society of Cheliax. Remember that the decades following the death of Aroden were rent with civil war, with petty regimes propping themselves up for a fortnight before being swallowed by the next minor war or intrigue. The devil-binders were the ones who brought stability to the uncertain chaos of the era.
Stability is popular with the people, especially when it comes with its own newfangled aristocracy and plenty of rewards for unscrupulous bastards.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Your god dies, your land falls into turmoil. There is not work, your family goes hungry and you see your neighbors fall under the heel of brigands and looters. Your daughter's virtue is stolen, and your young son's eye is scooped out in a vain effort to protect her. The land succumbs to plague and disease. There are no healers.
There is no fear of the law. There is no law.
Then, blessed be, comes Asmodeus. He is the scourge, the great terror, and he crushes all wrong-doers under his cloven hooves! Bandits are flayed, carpet baggers are bled and the foreigners who would seek to conquer our broken land are beheaded.
Why do I worship Asmodeus? Because there is bread on my table, coin in my pocket and healers in the temples. Our fallen women - so many of them shamed in the breaking - are now sacred in his eyes. Yes, he casts a long shadow, but who are we to question a god? Asmodeus has found us, and we are renewed.
Now, let us be off to today's executions.
Yes. This also.
Let's all be happy people now and forget the real world.
I'll bring the drugs.
Robert
Sorry for the sarcasm.
Your calm reply has shamed me.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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But I look at the art with the guy whipping slaves through the streets and lauging, and it makes me thing these guys aren't too sublte.
Not at all. The Hellknight armor is a good window into how subtle they are.
In fact, the image I have long associated with Cheliax in my mind is the guy in the middle of this picture.
Imagine that the look of the movers and shakers of Cheliax is designed by Erol Otus and you'll understand a lot of the vibe I am shooting for in terms of the vibe of the House of Thrune and assorted hangers on.
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In fact, the image I have long associated with Cheliax in my mind is the guy in the middle of this picture.
Imagine that the look of the movers and shakers of Cheliax is designed by Erol Otus and you'll understand a lot of the vibe I am shooting for in terms of the vibe of the House of Thrune and assorted hangers on.
Umm, like a group of nakid Ming the Merciless es running around ??!
:-O
I was planning to set up a much reworked version of Castle Amber in the Cheliax region myself.
As to the look of the nobles, by any chance have any of you seen the Bozanian's from the classic anime Votez V ??
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Hmmm i guess in the US it was called Voltes V.
My link fu is the weakest on these boards and i'm at the airport right now but here are a few links
http://members.tripod.com/~voltes_5/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%8Ddenji_Machine_Voltes_V
I wish i could do better, there are a few notes on the Boazanian nobility, the ruling class had horns and dressed elaborately, akin to and in the manner of the Imperial Court of Louis XIV, or maybe even the Prussian Empire.
The Boazanians were very Imperialistic and were quite human looking except for the fact that they had horns on thier heads. There was a slave class of Boazanians who were born without horns.
They created and transmuted 'rouge beasts' to wage thier wars.
Lastly your above post bringing up the Erol Otus picture reminded me of his artwork of the sorcerors of Pan Tang, that's not the look of the Cheliax nobility is it ?
linkified (although I'm not sure why ... Voltron?)
It's sort of a 1977 "proto-voltron". The bad guys are aliens with horns (and fancy clothes), so maybe they look like Chelaxian diabolists?
I dunno. There aren't any picutures in the Wikipedia article. The pictures in the other link are all head shots, so you can't see what they're wearing.