Stupid question: What's the difference between these two skills? I know one is knowledge you already possess and the other is knowledge you gain through contacts, but how does that knowledge differ? Let's say I've just entered a new city and want to check things out. I first spend an evening at the tavern (Gather info roll) then go to my room to think about my next move (Knowledge roll). Both of my skills have the same modifier and I roll 20s for both checks. What would I know with one skill that I wouldn't know with the other? Are they essentially the same?
Here is how I've done it:
Gather Information is what information you can pick up on the street, gossip, newsworthy information or generic information.
Knowledge (Local) is usually tied to a specific locale (ex, Sharn in Eberron or Suzail in the Forgotten Realms) and is more specific knowledge on the area. Kinda like knowing the town I live in was a logging town, used to be called Farewell Bend and Alexander Drake was one of the founders of the town. I use Knowledge (Local) as more of a historical/tour guide viewpoint, you know where the best drinks are, the best restaurant, the best pawn shop, etc.
Hope that helps!
Knowledge Local is more about just that: knowledge. What do you actually know about this locale.
Gather Information is when you don't have any knowledge about where you are, but you want to; it is more of an intuition, knowing where to go and who to talk to to get what you need.
They can be used in conjunction. You use your local knowledge to go where the best gossip is, and Gather Info to pump it out of folks.
A lot of players and DMs mistake Knowledge (local) as information that you know about your immediate environment. I use Knowledge (local) as a means to determine what facts one might know about people and places in general. For example, I have never visited Paris, but I know a bit about its various significant locations, what languages are spoken, types of food and drink, and other various cultural and regional aspects. If it were a fantasy setting, I might know about the types of humanoids that live there. My ranks in Knowledge (local) reflect how much I study about various peoples and places (imagine playing Trivial Pursuit and being an expert in the People and Places category).
Gather Information is a means to discover information that might not be commonly known such as recent events and less well-known individuals. For example. A DC10 Gather Information check might reveal that the butcher's daughter is often seen with the blacksmith's apprentice, and some speculate that he wishes to someday earn her hand in marriage. A DC25 chack might reveal that one individual has seen her escape out into the woods late at night cloaked and carrying a black book only to return just before dawn.
PS - If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (local), you get a +2 bonus on Gather Information checks.
I agree with what has already been said, and would add that Knowledge (local) should be used to gain the same things as Gather Information, but only works when around a certain proximity with lower DCs, since it comes from long time experience of being around said landmark or area, as opposed to spending a night talking to people.
Let me also thank you for creating this thread, as I've wanted to talk about Knowledge (local) for some time here on the boards but always forget. How do you treat this skill in your games, and how popular is it with your players? I know that Forgotten Realms addresses the issue of how to handle this, but outside of established worlds, how does this work? There's nothing in the PHB that I know of that says you can't take Knowledge (local) and know us it without penalty anywhere in the setting. That doesn't make sense to me.
I've toyed around with giving it a radius. You can use the skill within an area up to (X miles times your Ranks), centered on a city or landmark. I'm not sure of the exact number of miles per rank that should be granted in this model.
How do others handle this in home brews? Is there an official ruling on how it should be done?
Also, my players (particularly Sexi Golem) are often very opposed to Knowledge (local). None of them have ever taken it, or would ever consider taking it, considering it to be a waste of a skill. Considering the small area in which the skill can be used, and the fact that (in their eyes) either A) the knowledge gained can be obtained from Gather Information or other Knowledge checks (such as History) or B) the only creature is covers is humanoids which have few unique abilities and thus rarely require a Knowledge check, they feel that the skill has no use. Now, they rarely actually travel that far very often in my campaigns, so it covering a small area isn't that big of a deal, especially since I think the radius the skill covers should be relatively large to avoid penalizing the player. However, that doesn't matter to them.
But, I typically agree with them. I can't see how Knowledge (history) (or another, depending) or Gather Information or such couldn't get the same data granted by Knowledge (local) at a slightly higher DC, and are useable the world over, not in a specific region.
How is this skill supposed to work, as far as the region is covers is concerned (especially in a homebrew where clear regions haven't been set up), and is it worth the skill points?
EDIT- Ok, I started typing this before the last two posts appeared, and they covered my question a little bit. Knowledge (local) is a misnomer; to avoid confusion, it should be something more along the lines of Knowledge (cultures). That helps. It also somewhat trumps my next question, but I'll go ahead and ask it anyway in case the skill is being used FR style, where is covers a particular area only. Doesn't selecting Knowledge (local) for a small area somewhat cheat players? Say, Vaasa vs. the Western Heartlands? This seems like it would also make the skill undesireable.
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Knowledge (local) is a misnomer; to avoid confusion, it should be something more along the lines of Knowledge (cultures). That helps. It also somewhat trumps my next question, but I'll go ahead and ask it anyway in case the skill is being used FR style, where is covers a particular area only. Doesn't selecting Knowledge (local) for a small area somewhat cheat players? Say, Vaasa vs. the Western Heartlands? This seems like it would also make the skill undesireable.
I had only recently realized that Knowledge (local) wasn't actually localized; I had always assumed there were different Knowledge (local) skills for different places, but when I went through the Player's Handbook one day to confirm that, I couldn't find any mention of it.
Based on my prior interpretation, I had planned for an upcoming campaign to give players bonus skill points at 1st level to use specifically for Knowledge (local), because I think it's a useful skill that characters would naturally have, but that few players put ranks into. As they travel, I would allow them to swap points between Knowledge (local) skills after they'd spent sufficient time in a new location. (Now I'm planning something more radical for the Knowledge skills, but the basic idea is the same.)
I'm running Age of Worms, and I am using my own adventures as a supplement to the published stuff, so a chunk of the campaign is going on in Diamond Lake. As such, I recommended the PCs take Knowledge(local). To entice them, I offered the first 4 ranks at half price, and two of the PCs took it. They have been glad to, and the others have been a little behind them on knowing stuff. It has been a boon as a DM, too, because I can give them a little direction with it.
I love this thread!
Based on NPC stat blocks which have localized K (local), I've always assumed that this skill is by its very nature localized. As a result, I've never even considered putting points into it nor had a player ever put points into it.
I've always thought of K (local) as having historical knowledge of a particular community and Gather Information as the ability to learn current day-to-day info about wherever one happens to be. Of course, this creates an overlap between K (local), (History), (Geography) and sometimes (nobility/royalty). As a result, I've always been fuzzy when it comes to these knowledge skills. I have yet to make a concrete decision about their varying definitions; as a DM I tend to allow the use of these 4 skills interchangeably.
After this thread, I think I will combine these 4 knowledge skills into a single Knowledge (single geographical-cultural region) just to make it all simpler. Sorry I lost track of the Gather Information issue, but that's never been a problem for me.
This is the way I interpret it:
[ house rules : Knowledge (local) has been renamed Knowledge (regional) and Knowledge (history) has been renamed Knowledge (ancient history) ]
Knowledge (local) -
is the knowledge of current, regional information (regions determined by the DM but usually the same region as a Regional Feat), information about news events, gossip, local sites and locations, people of note, etc. at a certain point (usually atleast a few generations in the past) K. regional becomes K. ancient history. Someone with many skill ranks in Knowledge (regional) is really up-to-date on what is happening in a general region (higher DC) or his/her choosen region (lower DC)
Gather Information -
is a broader skill as "gather" (to find and collect) information is the skill to track down (locate)where the information is or where it could be found and then to find/take the information needed. Information sourses can be from both "people" (someone tells you the information) or from resources (libraries, record halls, etc.) and the information can be both current (K. regional) or historical (K. ancient history). Someone with many skill ranks in Gather Information knows where to find and how to get the information he/she needs
I also kind of saw gather information as a skill used to catch the 'current' rumors and facts. As Lillith said, you use it to find out where the best taverns and inns are, but also what people are currently looking to hire adventurers, what stuff has happened recently.
Kind of, in addition to what has been said before...guidebook written by a local plus local news.
Whereas knowledge (Local) is more guidebook and historical. kind of removed info. Knowledge local will tell you where the adventurers hang out, where the slums and temples are....gather info will tell you which temples may be well guarded, what bar will be a good spot to go to, what ones to avoid, who is known to be active in local events....
just my opinion
Thanks for the replies. So, is it safe to say that these skills have a lot of overlap, and could at least sometimes be used for the same information given time(to gather the info) or luck(you're in your specific locale)? Assuming the info gained is generally the same, the advantage of Knowledge(local) is that it's instant info(you don't have to do any gathering), but it's specific to a location so it's not useful everywhere. Gather Info's advantage is that it's useful everywhere, but it takes a fair amount of time to use. Does that pretty much sum it up or am I still confused?
Thanks for the replies. So, is it safe to say that these skills have a lot of overlap, and could at least sometimes be used for the same information given time(to gather the info) or luck(you're in your specific locale)? Assuming the info gained is generally the same, the advantage of Knowledge(local) is that it's instant info(you don't have to do any gathering), but it's specific to a location so it's not useful everywhere. Gather Info's advantage is that it's useful everywhere, but it takes a fair amount of time to use. Does that pretty much sum it up or am I still confused?
I'd agree with that
Knowledge (local) is what you know already (in that are, if you use it in that way)
Gather Information is getting the information you don't know
Assuming the info gained is generally the same, the advantage of Knowledge(local) is that it's instant info(you don't have to do any gathering), but it's specific to a location so it's not useful everywhere. Does that pretty much sum it up or am I still confused?
No, Knowledge (Local) is useful everywhere, and what your character happens to know about the region in question depends on the skill check.
Again, think of it as what you know about New York, Miami, or any other city you might not have ever visited. There's still some information that you know about that place, the people, and the general culture.
A lot of players and DMs mistake Knowledge (local) as information that you know about your immediate environment. I use Knowledge (local) as a means to determine what facts one might know about people and places in general. For example, I have never visited Paris, but I know a bit about its various significant locations, what languages are spoken, types of food and drink, and other various cultural and regional aspects. If it were a fantasy setting, I might know about the types of humanoids that live there. My ranks in Knowledge (local) reflect how much I study about various peoples and places (imagine playing Trivial Pursuit and being an expert in the People and Places category).
Gather Information is a means to discover information that might not be commonly known such as recent events and less well-known individuals. For example. A DC10 Gather Information check might reveal that the butcher's daughter is often seen with the blacksmith's apprentice, and some speculate that he wishes to someday earn her hand in marriage. A DC25 chack might reveal that one individual has seen her escape out into the woods late at night cloaked and carrying a black book only to return just before dawn.
PS - If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (local), you get a +2 bonus on Gather Information checks.
I like your explanation. I'll add to it and expand on your examples to cover what I see as the differences. Using Gather Information you can find out that the Butchers Daughter is often seen with the Blacksmith's apprentice. Now unless this is a really small local and these two individuals are some how significant Knowledge(Local) is not going to get you this information. Its simply not something that a knowledgable person could know. You can't have read it in a book and traveling merchants won't have told you about it - there was no reasonable way you could study to learn such information. Gather Information applies however because the locals certianly know about this sort of thing so you could use that to find out.
Knowledge(Local) can be used anywhere. I can use Knowledge(Local) to see if I know the answers about important features about a locale wherever I am. If its important to know that Sharn has Large Towers the skill check can be made in the middle of the dungeon. Gather Information obvously can't. Furthermroe Gather Information probably does not work if your not in the locale in question. OK one might convince their DM to allow them to learn that Sharn has big towers while in the capital of another nieghboring country - but once the information gets out of the sort of thing people could reasonably be expected to know then the DCs are going to be massive.
Half the people in Paris can probably tell me on which side of the River some specific medium sized street is located - but if I'm in New York its going to be really difficult to get that information with Gather Information. I need to find a Parisian. If I'm in a small town in Kentucky it may be simply impossible.
No, you can get a lot of information on Paris in Kentucky. See, living only 30 minutes from Louisville, KY, on the Indiana side of the river, I happen to have enough Knowledge (local) to know that there is indeed a Paris, Kentucky! And a London. I'm pretty sure a place called Germantown is not far from Louisville, either. You can see all of Europe in one state! Sorry, I found this funny.
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You can see all of Europe in one state! Sorry, I found this funny.
Yeah, but them Kentucky folk, they pronounce things funny. Like Versailles (pronounced Ver-sails, not Vehr-sai). Of course you Indiana folk have your own peculiarities like Dubois county (Doo-Boys to a native speaker).
Pitchin' stones in the glass house...
Gavgoyle
And to bring this back somewhat on topic, I know the above trivia, because being from Southern Illinois, I would have some ranks of Knowledge (local) about the region.
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I love this thread!
Based on NPC stat blocks which have localized K (local), I've always assumed that this skill is by its very nature localized. As a result, I've never even considered putting points into it nor had a player ever put points into it.
I've always thought of K (local) as having historical knowledge of a particular community and Gather Information as the ability to learn current day-to-day info about wherever one happens to be. Of course, this creates an overlap between K (local), (History), (Geography) and sometimes (nobility/royalty). As a result, I've always been fuzzy when it comes to these knowledge skills. I have yet to make a concrete decision about their varying definitions; as a DM I tend to allow the use of these 4 skills interchangeably.
After this thread, I think I will combine these 4 knowledge skills into a single Knowledge (single geographical-cultural region) just to make it all simpler. Sorry I lost track of the Gather Information issue, but that's never been a problem for me.
Agreed, Gather Information is pretty straightforward, but some of the Knowledge skills seem problematic. I'm considering changes for my next campaign:
- Knowledge (local) becomes Knowledge (people), which is a knowledge of important personalities, businesses, customs, etc. (as well as humanoid monsters).
- Knowledged (geography) goes away, with pieces of it being farmed out to history, nature, and people.
- Not directly related, but Knowledge (nobility & royalty) becomes Knowledge (government), and includes knowledge of bureaucracy and laws in its scope.
By themselves, Knowledge skills like government, history, nature, and people are generalized, not tied to any particular place. For example, with successful Knowledge (people) checks, you could use general knowledge of how towns are typically laid out to help find a particular type of shop or a certain kind of person, or know something about very common customs in a large region, or have some information about very well-known people. IOW, these things have low DCs; specific knowledge about an area (important personalities, how to contact a city's Thieves' Guild, the location of a particular shop, isolated regional customs, etc.) has a high DC, which you're unlikely to beat without being familiar with the area (or have a lot of ranks, which indicates intensive study of many regions).
As for how to reflect specific regional familiarity, I'm still undecided. I could just apply ad hoc circumstance bonuses for regions with which the PCs are familiar. Alternatively, I'm considering a Regional Familiarity skill. This would be a pseudo-skill, kind of like Speak Language, with a separate skill for each pre-defined region. A rank (or ranks?) in this skill would provide a bonus (+4?) on Knowledge checks dealing with that region.
You can see all of Europe in one state! Sorry, I found this funny.Yeah, but them Kentucky folk, they pronounce things funny. Like Versailles (pronounced Ver-sails, not Vehr-sai). Of course you Indiana folk have your own peculiarities like Dubois county (Doo-Boys to a native speaker).
Pitchin' stones in the glass house...
Gavgoyle
And to bring this back somewhat on topic, I know the above trivia, because being from Southern Illinois, I would have some ranks of Knowledge (local) about the region.
I had completely forgotten about Versailles, KY. I remember when I was in junior high and first learned the pronunciation of the French city of the same name and started calling the one in Kentucky the same, and no one had a clue what I was talking about.
As far as Dubois goes, if they're going to put an "S" on the end, we're going to say it! That goes for you folks in Illinois (I'm saying it "Ill-in-oys"), too. :)
Contradictory? You bet! That's what you get from people who don't even know where their nickname came from. Hooray for Hoosiers! Try figuring that one out with Knowledge (local)!
Oh, and to actually contribute something, I'd stick with ad hoc regional bonuses, Occam.
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That goes for you folks in Illinois (I'm saying it "Ill-in-oys"), too. :)
My wife pronounces it with an overly French accent...Ill-ee-nwah... to annoy me. She's from Missouri, so she get's annoyed by people who do the whole "That's the 'Show Me State'...whatcha gonna show me?" thing. She works with old people a lot, so she's frequently annoyed :)
No, you can get a lot of information on Paris in Kentucky. ... You can see all of Europe in one state! Sorry, I found this funny.
*chuckle* Living in Moscow, I think you can make a K: local to find that Paris (ID) is about an 8-10 hour drive. But it would take a gather info to know that we do not grow potatoes and that it is pronounced /mos COE/ not /mos COW/ (rhymes with bow as in 'bow & arrow', not 'take a bow' *grin*
(its like trying to pronounce 'drow' to Drizzt fans :)
I think that the Knowledge abilities overlapping to a degree is a good thing. It allows people add some flavor to the character and kind of explain how they have the knowledge. I know in a system where skill points are at a premium that doesn't make a ton of sense, but some people are willing to give up usefulness for flavor. This gives them a chance. Also I think which knowledge you use changes what the DC is for a given piece of information. This is left up to the DM to determine which skill will get the info easier.
The other thing that I don't think was touched on is how you go about getting the info. Knowledge skill mean that you already know the info and just needed to jog your memory so to speak. Gather Information means you go out and get it. Not only does this take more time, but your putting yourself out there. So if you use Gather Info to find out something about a person or say a church that is out to get you, they might hear that your asking around about them. You could have just tipped your hand, where as if you had the knowledge skill you would know the info without them knowing you had it.
Here's another question that's been in my head for some time: where do libraries come in? Does using a library allow you to make a check with a bonus, remake a failed check, or remake a failed check with a bonus? How long should it take? I would imagine that would depend on the DC of the question. If I remember correctly from Lord of the Rings, Gandalf spent around nine years researching the Ring. What would THAT DC have been? :)
Should high DC questions require a library to answer, and a certain amount of time? Say, a library is required for DC 25 and higher questions, and a library of larger size is needed for each DC increment higher (DC 30, 35, 40, etc.). How long would it take to research? I could see hours for a lower DC, days, and finally the time would move into weeks.
Perhaps a library is needed to answer a quesion with a DC a certain amount higher than your ranks? If you have 15 ranks in a Knowledge skill, perhaps you need a library to answer a DC 25 or higher question.
Would a combination of all these things be best? Keeping a small personal library gives a +1 bonus for each 50 or 100gp worth of books you have in it, and a separate library is needed for each skill? It could also allow for a one-time retry on a failed check, or multiple retries (say, three?) with a longer and longer time per check? Meanwhile, larger public libraries could give bigger and bigger bonuses on the check, but take longer and longer to utilize. Perhaps in addition, larger libraries allow an untrained character make a Knowledge check as if trained and with the bonus given by the library?
There are so many possible ways to handle this! I love the thought of libraries being an integral part of high DC Knowledge checks, but how to make them function mechanics-wise?
I also don't like to hand out info too freely. I think a lot of Knowledge DCs presented in many published adventures could stand to be upped by 5 or even 10.
This particularly comes to mind from the Age of Worms, when so much information could be gained by Knowledge checks early on. A large part of the AP was figuring out what was going on, but with fairly easy Knowledge (religion) checks, the party could learn enough to draw most of the necessary conclusions. Enough to make skipping from town to town to ask wizard after wizard pointless. My party just paid Valkus Dun to make the check for them and tell them what they knew, and DING! They knew who Kyuss was, that the Ebon Triad revered him, what the Ebon Triad was, and what the Age of Worms Prophecy was, and that Kyuss was the Harbinger of the Age of Worms. Given that they knew the campaign name, they immediately deduced that the whole game was going to be spent fighting Kyuss's minions, and probably fighting Kyuss himself eventually. The need to do most of the research that a huge amount of the campaign centered around was nullified.
Information should be doled out carefully so as to not reveal to much to the players and make plots become obvious. A good amount of information should be secret and guarded, and not available to be had with a Knowledge check.
Here's another question that's been in my head for some time: where do libraries come in?
According to Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, owning a private library in a stronghold or home gives a competency bonus for Knowledge checks. Referencing a public library should give a competence bonus to Knowledge checks. I would probably create a house rule for allowing higher bonuses for more time (measured in hours) invested in research on the specific locale in question.
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Here's another question that's been in my head for some time: where do libraries come in?According to Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, owning a private library in a stronghold or home gives a competency bonus for Knowledge checks. Referencing a public library should give a competence bonus to Knowledge checks. I would probably create a house rule for allowing higher bonuses for more time (measured in hours) invested in research on the specific locale in question.
No need for a house rule, with the rules for complex skill checks from Unearthed Arcana, which require multiple successful checks over time. Library research for Knowledge skills is specifically called out as an example of a complex skill check. They're OGL, here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/complexSkillChecks.htm
No need for a house rule, with the rules for complex skill checks from Unearthed Arcana, which require multiple successful checks over time. Library research for Knowledge skills is specifically called out as an example of a complex skill check. They're OGL, here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/complexSkillChecks.htm
I don't know how I missed that. Thanks. :)