Do multiple Ray of Enfeeblement effects stack?
In the spell description, the penalty to Strength is unnamed, which should mean it stacks, but in the Magic chapter of the PHB it gives Ray of Enfeeblement as an example of when a spell effect doesn't stack (don't have page number as I'm at work).
Which is correct?
Cheers, Aubrey (and I trust you are well?).
What reason do they not stack? I'm sure to be asked.
|
Aubrey is right on there-
From the Saving Throw section on pages 171 and 172 of the Player's Handbook:
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. For example, two bless spells don't give twice the benefit of one bless. Both bless spells, however, continue to act simultaneously, and if one ends first, the other one continues to operate for the remainder of its duration. Likewise, two haste spells do not make a creature doubly fast. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). For example, the enhancement bonus to Strength from a bull's strength spell and the enhancement bonus to Strength from a divine power spell don't stack. You use whichever bonus gives you the better Strength score. In the same way, a belt of giant Strength gives you an enhancement bonus to Strength, which does not stack with the bonus you get from a bull's strength spell.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. For example, if a character takes a -4 penalty to Strength from a ray of enfeeblement spell and then receives a second ray of enfeeblement spell that applies a -6 penalty, he or she takes only the -6 penalty. Both spells are still operating on the character, however. If one ray of enfeeblement spell is dispelled or its duration runs out, the other spell remains in effect, assuming that its duration has not yet expired.
The type is unnamed, but it comes from the same spell which is the problem. You should be able to stack multiple different spells that give strength penalties though.
Ithuriel's right. When a bonus is unnamed, it stacks with every other bonus you get, but not with mutliple instances of itself. That's just one of the basic tennents of D&D's stacking rules. The same way that if a barbarian has more than one rage per day, he can't activate them both and become doubly enraged. And if there was a magic item which granted its user the Dodge feat, he couldn't become doubly dodgey,* even though dodge bonuses stack with themselves. Even bonuses which stack with others of their own type never stack when derived from the same source. There may be an exception floating around out there, but I can't think of one.
*Against one opponent, at least; I suppose it would be legitimate to set the bonuses against two different foes (or even against the same foe, but the effects would overlap, meaning there would be no statistical difference whatsoever). This all assumes the user can benefit from this hypothetical item when he already has Dodge in the first place, of course, which I'm not sure is true as per the RAW.
|
|
Here's an example of what your player could do for the same effect from 1st level, but it requires a feat: Fell Weaken from Libris Mortis.
Round 1: Ray of Enfeeblement
Round 2: Ray of Frost (Fell Weakened)
Fell Weaken takes a slot one level higher than normal. The spell you apply it to must do damage. The feat adds a -4 Str penalty for 1 minute to the normal effects. It's a pretty handy feat and as you start applying it to different spells (magic missile, fireball, etc) you can give lots of opponents a -4 Str at once.
At 1st level slapping it onto a 0 level spell you will sap anywhere between 6 and 11 Str in 2 rounds. Of course that really makes you a one trick pony at low levels, but if this guy was going to memorize Ray of Enfeeblement twice anyways...
And I'm fine, thank you for asking. You?
Very well thanks. Our group's having another camping meet over midsummer. can't wait!
And thanks for your input, everybody. The comments make sense and I'll take them to my group.
Thanks!
|
Here's an example of what your player could do for the same effect from 1st level, but it requires a feat: Fell Weaken from Libris Mortis.
Round 1: Ray of Enfeeblement
Round 2: Ray of Frost (Fell Weakened)Fell Weaken takes a slot one level higher than normal. The spell you apply it to must do damage. The feat adds a -4 Str penalty for 1 minute to the normal effects. It's a pretty handy feat and as you start applying it to different spells (magic missile, fireball, etc) you can give lots of opponents a -4 Str at once.
At 1st level slapping it onto a 0 level spell you will sap anywhere between 6 and 11 Str in 2 rounds. Of course that really makes you a one trick pony at low levels, but if this guy was going to memorize Ray of Enfeeblement twice anyways...
Orcwart,
If you have 3rd level spells yet, you could use Ray of Exhaustion to lower their Str. as well. And I think that if you hit them twice with Ray of Exhaustion the 2nd one would make them Exhausted. (that if they made the save for the first Ray, if they didn't you need to cast it a 2nd time)
This has come up a couple of times in the past and if I had a good memory at all I would remember the exact answer. I thought the main problem with Ray of Enfeeblement was that it was an ability penalty. Ability penalties I thought never stacked where as ability damage or drain stacks, which is why poison can be very nasty. I could be wrong but I think that's what I remember.
This has come up a couple of times in the past and if I had a good memory at all I would remember the exact answer. I thought the main problem with Ray of Enfeeblement was that it was an ability penalty. Ability penalties I thought never stacked where as ability damage or drain stacks, which is why poison can be very nasty. I could be wrong but I think that's what I remember.
This is more or less my understanding as well. ray of enfeeblement does not stack becuase its a strength penalty. However if I have some poison and I hit you over and over again the ability damage from the poison stacks. Same deal if I'm a vampire and I insist upon level draining you.
Hence I'm under the impression that you could hit the same target over and over again with enervation,eventually the creature would die due to having as many negative levels as it has HD.
|
|
I believe you can stack strength penalties as long as they come from different sources. Does anyone have a source to indicate that you can't?
It's not the same as damage or drain because it will fade away quickly and cannot kill.
EDIT: Ray of enfeeblement can't stack with itself because it is from the same source, not because it is 2 penalties.