Rogue Suggestion (sneak attack talents)

[Skjaldbakka]

The current rogue strikes me as overpowered, and there are two culprits:

-Rogue Talents
-Ability to Sneak Attack virtually everything.

The current rogue is just as good (arguably better) than the fighter in melee due to the now incredibly reliable sneak attack bonus damage. The rogue then has the additional advantage of being highly skilled, thus making him more useful out of combat. Overall, this makes the rogue just better than the fighter, who has nothing useful to do outside of combat. The rogue either needs to have a reduced reliability with its sneak attack, or reduced staying power. Since the BAB/HD correspondence is, IMO a good idea, the sneak attack is the easiest thing to fix.

Here is my proposal:

Remove the current new sneak attack rule, and replace it with rogue talents, like so (some of the names are bad):

Undead Hunter: You now gain the benefit of your sneak attack damage against corporeal undead foes.

Weedwacker: You now gain the benefit of your sneak attack damage against plants.

Advanced Talents:

Discorporation: You now gain the benefit of your sneak attack against incorporeal foes, but only if wielding a ghost touch weapon or otherwise able to ignore the miss chance from incorpoeality.

Golem Striker: You now gain the benefit of your sneak attack against constructs, but only when wielding a weapon able to bypass the hardness or DR of the target (such as an adamantine weapon, or the benefit of the golembane scarab).

Elemental Bane: You now gain the benefit of your sneak attack against elementals, but only when wielding a weapon that deals energy damage appopriate to the target's subtype: Fire/Cold, Air/Acid, Earth/Electricity, Water/Fire.

Fortification Piercing Strike: You now gain the benefit of your sneak attack against foes wearing armor with the fortification enchantment as if it was one level lower (heavy->medium, medium->low, low->none)

Alternately, change the rule so that it requires 2 ranks in an appropriate knowledge skill to sneak attack foes whose creature type is covered by a different knowledge skill than the rogue's. So a giant rogue could sneak attack all of the knowledge (nature) creatures (humanoids, giants, animals, magical beats, etc.), but would need to have 2 ranks of knowledge (arcana) to know where the weak spots are on a dragon, and 2 ranks in knowledge (religion) to know where the weak points are for undead.

Note I am assuming my rule for humanoids and knowledge local/nature, which is that knowing about humans or elves is knowledge nature, but knowing about specific humans or elves would be knowledge local. Which is a houserule, I am pretty sure.

[Archade]

I had house-ruled something similar to your skill option. I said if the rogue has 5 ranks in the appropriate skill (ie. Knowledge Religion for Undead), they could sneak attack them.

However, the talent idea seems a lot better to me! Rather than make a rogue invest in a cross-class skill, give them a talent! Very nice!

I too think the rogue is a little too much now, with the d8 Hit Dice, the unlimited sneak attack, and the option to take fighter bonus feats. It doesn't need a lot of toning down, but it does need a bit of reigning in ...

[Locworks]

Archade wrote:

I had house-ruled something similar to your skill option. I said if the rogue has 5 ranks in the appropriate skill (ie. Knowledge Religion for Undead), they could sneak attack them.

However, the talent idea seems a lot better to me! Rather than make a rogue invest in a cross-class skill, give them a talent!

A more granular progression for sneak attacks based on Knowledge ranks.

[Skjaldbakka]

Interesting, but I think that would put it below the desired power level. By which I of course mean my desired rogue power level.

[Dreaming Warforged]

This way of limiting sneak attack was suggested also in another thread.

I like it. Needing talents and/or knowledges to be able to sneak attack special creatures not previously included in 3.5.

But I'm not a good judge of long term effect. Seems to me that limiting it to one attack per round could also be very (too?) limiting and more in line with the OD&D effects, where it was much harder to get a sneak attack on a foe.

DW

[Joey Virtue]

I agree i really think that sneak attacks for 3.5 imune creatures should be be rogue talents

[Locworks]

Foe-specific talents create the same problem as the choice of Favoured Enemy: spending them in a situation when the specific foes stop appearing in the adventure (or never appear in significant numbers ).

The Knowledge-based SA for weird foes (whatever the actual limitations) is less of a problem as skill points are cheaper and represent the rogue studying the foe in general.

[nippurdelagash]

I think the Sneak attacks at weak point is good, but +1d6 every two level is too much, then maybe replace for the class hability of luck (change one check of 1d20 for day, +1 every four level, a 19th level of Rogue with 5d6 of Sneak attack and 5/day of luck.

Sorry for my english

[TarkisFlux]

I generally agree with the suggestion to tone SA down slightly, but they still should be able to use SA on previously immune foes if they look into it. A talent isn't a bad call, but I'm gonna second Locworks point. Spending the ranks in knowledge skills can continue to give you a benefit even if you stop seeing a creature in combat, since they generally apply to other creature types or areas. It also leaves you free to acquire a more generally useful talent, instead of a fairly specific one. Plus, with the merging of skills that's going on, rogues have a couple extra skills to toy with now, making this a less expensive option on the face...

Actual judgement of such a system witheld pending rules specifics of course, but I'd say it could be made a better system than just using a talent for it :-)

[Endier1]

Hi!

Another option to downgrade a little the sneak attack that we was speaking of was the Fortified option. It gives each monster individually a grade of protection agains sneak attack (and critical attacks if its is necessary).

I like the talent option too, but the skill option, IMO, is not going to have any positive effect in nerfing the sneak attack. If the rogue wants sneak a monster (one previuosly immune, of course), he should do a larger inversion to sneaking it that one or two skill points. He already have gained more hit points, more options (talents) and a more effective skill points.

Cheers!

[Locworks]

TarkisFlux wrote:

Actual judgement of such a system witheld pending rules specifics of course, but I'd say it could be made a better system than just using a talent for it :-)

Updated, reloaded and with 50% more notes and links: here

[Endier1]

Locworks wrote:

Updated, reloaded and with 50% more notes and links: here

Good work, Locworks, for summarizing all threads in the same place. You should edit your propossition to add the "take 10" variant that you explain us previously to reduce the time in play. I think that didn't see it on the last thread. The aid another option should work only if the helper continue investing his turn (standard action) to direct the attacks of the rogue, not only once for all the combat, I think.

Said that, is better that the knowledge skill must increase to be effective than a simply invest of two skill points (equivalent to five skill ranks in previous editions of game).

Not is that the skill option like me more than the fortified, :o), but is a good rule that I wouldn't care see in the PRPG.

[Locworks]

Cheers, Endier1. I reposted your feedback and my answer on the Knowledge-based tweak here to avoid hijacking this thread any further. Sorry, Skjaldbakka.