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There were a lot of things I liked about the VP/WP. Tougher low level PC, and vulnerable high level ones suited my play style. The trouble I had was the extra layer of complexity. Since the terminology changed, players were confused between which pool of points to deduct from. Inevitably, players will play to the system. It didn't take long before my players were searching for keen weapons and other methods to expand threat ranges.
I finally changed to using full con score for a HP bonus at first level. It seemed to be an elegant compromise.
Why would BWC be a problem?
You keep your old hit points as vitality points and would add a number of wound points to your char.
(Besides, this would be nearly the same as the initial hit point boost option when using CON as additional hit points - hope you know what I mean)Sure, some feats should be reworked (I think about toughness) but what else, which isn't rewritten one way or the other?
Undead (who have no CON score).
Increased PC deaths (see Unearthed Arcana on the developers' thoughts) especially at mid-to-high levels as monsters not only inflict higher damage, but greater chance of inflicting crits to bypass HPs and affect wounds.
Reworking feats, spells, and special abilities to accommodate Vitality/Wounds system (again, see UA)
There's no non-lethal damage in the system, so abilities that inflict such damage will have to be adapted.
Healing and how it affects both (i.e., how does variable healing affect VP/WP versus fixed healing like the Heal spell, etc.?)
Adjusting CR (see UA).
Increased complexity. I agree with you: while I don't find the system complex, other posts here and other sites indicate many a DM and their players can't wrap their mind around it.
I like the system myself but wouldn't imagine many 3.5\Pathfinder players supporting it. It does add a level of realism but can add an extra element to combat. When someone hits you will a critical you can determine where it hit and what the effect is( arm hit and disabled for the combat, leg hit and moment halved etc). In the event of a critical killing hit I used to lop off limbs( Saving throws negate the loss but the limb is out of action till healed with powerful magic or a number of days rest. It also means the Regenerate spell will be used again as I can't remember the last time it's been used since 3rd edition.
My Pre Saga Star Wars group had field day with it as one character had a complete cybernetic arm another had a cybernetic eye and lower arm. It developed the character.
Undead just use HP's( basically your blows have very little effect and cannot kill them with a critical).
It does require a bit more work but does have benefits. I've found however if you players don't like the idea it can be more of a hinderance.
Toughness could increase Wounds which would be appealing. Other feats\ spells just increase Vitality.
The #1 Pro for a vp/wp system is that it is much more realistic. The biggest con is that it is much more realistic.
It works well in games where you want gritty realism. A non-magical medieval campaign, a modern day crime-drama adventure, or a hard sci-fi setting all work well with it. Danger lurks around every corner. Every two-bit hoodlum with a gun can kill the heroes with a lucky shot. No matter how tough or experienced you are, roughly the same amount of critical damage it takes to kill your grandma kills you too. Expect the PCs to not take as many risks, use cover more often, avoid open fights, and snipe from safe locations as much as possible. Definitely more realistic, but not as dramatic.
It doesn't work well with any kind of heroic fantasy. With larger than life swashbuckling heroes who take dozens of hits and keep on fighting. It's anti-climatic to have a main protagonist (a PC) killed by a lowly 1/2 HD goblin from a wandering monster table who rolls a 20. Can you imagine Xena Warrior Princess getting offed in tavern brawl by stray crossbow bolt? Would Conan the Barbarian go down so easily from being stabbed in the back? If Han Solo had rolled a crit on Bespin, the entire Star Wars saga would have ended right there.
We used the vp/wp in d20 RCR version of Star Wars. Most players agreed that it was realistic but just not Star Wars. The only one happy with it was the jedi with an expanded crit range lightsaber.
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Ok, I wonder what you all think about the Vitality/Wound point system.
I found it quite interesting, because they actually make it "understandable" what "Hitpoints" are and give players a faster healing progression so they don't need a priest THAT much.Wait, is it OGL?
PRO:
- better understanding
- faster healing w/o priestsCON:
- Two pools to rememberNEUTRAL
- lucky hits more deadly
- no non-lethal damage (but I would reintroduce them once all vitality points are used up: critical hit with a sap, *bumm*, victim unconcious)
It's an interesting system, but I actually liked the ALTERNITY health system better. You had Stun points, Wound points, and Mortal points. Stun = CON score, represent light damage, and is healed at the end of the encounter. Wound = CON score, represents serious damage, and needs to be healed. Mortal = 1/2 CON score, represents severe wounds, and once it's gone you're dead. Once you run out of Stun you take Wound, then Mortal, etc. If you score a good enough hit with a weapon, it skips stun and does wound or mortal (depending on the weapon). A complicated system but much more realistic.
@ magamundo: I'd like to see it as well
@ robert: your idea also looks good
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Wounds and vitality are all supposed to be wrapped up in what hit points actually are along with your luck, skill, training, divine favor and all those kinds of things.
To properly represent things we'd need to actually separate out the pools. Which might in and out of itself make for kind of a fun system deciding if the 12 damage you took go to your flesh, luck, favor or stamina pools...
Not something I'd want to have to run though. For a home rule your welcome to do it but I wouldn't want to see it in print.
For those of you who have used this system in high-level games, how much more deadly is it to the PCs? How many PC deaths per adventure are we talking here?
Please send me your system.
sundragon2012(at)gmail.com
Thanks.
Wyrmshadows
I have used.
And for some time now.
Now, reviving this post, in my game I have used the system with a little difference, to make it less deadly. The catch is: it SEEMS very deadly to the players, but it really isn't at all.
The system: Normal vitality and wounds, however, I introduced two things: First, armor gives DR/-. Half (round up) the Ac bonus becomes DR. Everytime he is hit, he takes Vitality damage (called Fatigue by me and my gamers), and he is not hit (or takes just a scratch) in the RP.
However, when his Fatigue runs out, or he takes a Critical Hit, he takes damage directly in his Wound Points. (No critical multipliers - high multipliers become broader treat range) I make the little changes of: "Damage Conversion": The other half (round down) of the armor AC bonus become this thing. Whenever you take Wound Damage, after discouting you DR (that chainmail MUST absorb SOME little damage, after all!!!), you convert up to this value of your Lethal Wound Damage into Nonlethal Wound Damage, the rest you take normally. Now I use the system as in the UA, with the rolls for shock and everything, the fatigued condition and all.
Whe the char falls to 0 wound points, if his total wounds are Lethal, he is in danger of dying. If they are a mix of lethal and nonlethal, he is in danger of dying too, but not in some rounds, as the other fool without armor.
((Note: To this system to work, any class ability that let you put an attribute into your unnarmored AC should give the higher half into DR and the lower one into "damage conversion". This can be a little hard to explain, but the monk HAS to survive, and man, if you see the chambara movies...))
Oh, generally the humanoid (or at least with armor) enemies tend to no die, but be left dying, but able to recover. This tends to relieve the players and the characters of killing people around. But the plain aberration, dragon, whatever, tends to die anyway (Note: under this system natural armor gives ac bonus. it is important for the balance of the whole system!).
ADD 1: Give one more thing: This table idea of giving each character +2 Wound Points each 3 levels (3, 6, 9, 12...).
ADD 2: Extra damage dice don't give extra dice on critical hits. Instead, they give flat bonuses: +1 for each extra d4, +2 for d6, +3 for d8, +4 for d10 and a great +6 for d12. This is another one to give balance. A critical hit sneak attack still is frightening, but not overpower.
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All this is the theory. I'm no writter, so it may be a little confuse.
In the practice, with my gaming group, however: This system adds the feel that when you finally take a sword thru the chest you're a dead man (unless of course, you are conan, with many, many wound points).
Players tend to feel greater risk on their mortal selves with this system. They may be great warriors (as they are at this point of my campaign), experienced, capable of many fights and going unscratched (with high Defense Bonus ac, and with lots of Fatigue Points, that represent not being hit), but they know that the only thing between they and their deaths at terrible pain and bloodloss is their ability to defend themselves, since if ever one arrow hit or axe land, they will be badly hurt, if not dying.
Now, in my game there is still to be any death on the part of the pcs. On npc that followed the group for two chapters (around 5 levels already) died with one critical hit at the beggining of the encounter -the healer couldn't go to him.
There is one catch that I said earlier: When you fall to 0 wound points, you make a fortitude roll.
-If you win, you stay awake but disabled, able to fight.
-If you fail, you fall down and start to die.
When you fall, on your next turn you make another save:
-If you win, you keep dying. Troz.
-If you fail, you die. Game over.
-If you win by 10 or more, you actually stabilize. Heh, try this one.
This is where I find the catch: When you finally fall, there's still one round until you make the first roll to see if you really die. This means that everyone in the battlefield get one turn before that, wich means that all your friends get one turn before that, wich means tha your chances of being stabilized become really greater.
Indeed, you can fall with one blow, but you have at least one turn to live.
In the normal system you can fall with one blow and bye bye, going well below the abyssal -10 hit points.
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So, even with this system being deadly, I found that there are no more deaths in a well prepared groups than in the normal system. The FEAR of death increases, however, and you can even give pcs some scars (and not tons of them because twelve arrows hit a pc with 150 hp, each doing 1-8 damage...).
This, at least, works for my group very well, and while this SHOULDN'T be introduced as core pathfinder (too many conversions), every group that likes reallism should take a closer look to the system. It can be made more (no DR on critical hits), or less deadly (dunno, maybe full ac value to damage conversion or dr...).
However, it works guys. Pretty nicely.
Note: In my game I use another level of realism. I make the player who's hit by a critical, or that hits a critical, roll on a random table to see an extra effect. The pc/npc still takes the normal damage to Wound, and some extra effect. There's even instant decapitation, and that is game over. I'll put the table following here, but it's on my mother language. Just put it into some translator of Portuguese to English, and you probably will be able to read it.
"D100 Sucesso Decisivo.
01-35 Sucesso Decisivo normal.
36-50 Sucesso Decisivo multiplicado x2.
51-58 Aplique dano multiplicado no escudo.
59-67 Aplique dano multiplicado na arma.
68-69 Elmo removido, ouvido ferido (-4 Ouvir, 1d4 horas), atordoado 1d6 turnos.
70 Garganta furada, sem falar por 1d4 horas.
71-72 Olho ferido, -2 Observar, 1d4 horas.
73 Olho ferido, -2 Observar, 1d4 dias.
74 Perna ferida, -3m deslocamento, 1d4 horas.
75 Perna ferida, -6m deslocamento, 1d4 horas.
76 Mão ferida, 1d4 dano em Destreza.
77 Tornozelo ferido, -3m deslocamento, 1d4 horas, 1d4 dano em Destreza.
78 Joelho ferido, -6-m deslocamento, 1d4 horas, 1d6 dano em Destreza.
79 Quadril ferido, -9m deslocamento, 1d4 horas, 2d4 dano em Destreza.
80 Punho de braço secundário ferido, -2 para ataques secundários, sem escudo, 1d4 horas.
81 Braço secundário ferido, -4 para ataques secundários, sem escudo, 1d4 horas.
82 Cotovelo de braço secundário ferido, -6 para ataques secundários, sem escudo, 1d4 horas.
83-85 Ombro de braço secundário ferido, sem ataques secundários e escudo, 1d4 horas.
86 Punho de braço primário ferido, -2 para ataques primários, 1d4 horas.
87 Braço primário ferido, -4 para ataques primários, 1d4 horas.
88 Ombro de braço primário ferido, -6 para ataques primários, 1d4 horas.
89 Ferimentos de abdômen, 1d4 dano de Constituição.
90 Ferimentos no tórax, 1d6 dano de Constituição.
91 Ferimentos de abdômen mais sérios, 2d4 dano de Constituição.
92 Ferimentos de tórax mais sérios, 2d6 dano de Constituição.
93 Ferimentos de abdômen graves, 1d6 dano de Força e Constituição.
94 Ferimentos de tórax graves, 2d4 dano de Força e Constituição.
95 Ferimentos de abdômen terminais, 2d6 dano de Força e Constituição.
96 Ferimentos de tórax terminais, 3d6 dano de Força e Constituição.
97 Garganta cortada, Fortitude CD 20 ou morre. 3d6 de dano de Constituição com sucesso.
98 Garganta cortada, Fortitude CD 25 ou morre. 3d6 de dano de Constituição com sucesso.
99 Possível decapitação, Fortitude CD 30 ou morre. 3d6 de dano de Constituição com sucesso.
100 Possível decapitação, Fortitude CD 35 ou morre. 3d6 de dano de Constituição com sucesso.
Here is tha table for critical failures (you roll natural 1, and roll again. If this second roll don't hit the enemy Ac, you had a Critical Hit; otherwise, just a normal failure).
D100 Falha Crítica
01-19 Destreza CD 20 ou cai ao chão.
20-33 Destreza CD 20 ou cai no chão, atordoado, 1d4 rodadas.
34-39 Destreza CD 20 ou cai no chão, atordoado, 1d6 rodadas.
40-44 Destreza CD 20 ou perde próxima ação, enquanto se re-equilibra.
45-49 Força CD 20 ou derruba a arma.
50-54 Força CD 20 ou arremessa a arma à 1d3 quadrados.
55-59 Força CD 20 ou arremessa a arma à 1d6 quadrados.
60-61 Escudo preso com oponente, Destreza CD 20 ou derruba o escudo.
62-63 Escudo preso com oponente, Destreza CD 20 ou derruba o escudo, -4 Ca próximo turno.
64-65 Arma presa com oponente, sem ação padrão próximo turno.
66-69 Arma arremessada longe, pousa 3d4 quadrados longe.
70-74 Arma possivelmente quebra. Role dano normal, mas aplica à arma.
75-76 Se acerta, causando metade do dano.
77-78 Se acerta, causando dano normal.
79-80 Se acerta, causando dano crítico.
80-82 Acerta aliado em área ameaçada, senão a si mesmo, causando metade do dano.
83-84 Acerta aliado em área ameaçada, senão a si mesmo, causando dano normal.
85-86 Acerta aliado em área ameaçada, senão a si mesmo, causando dano crítico.
87-88 Se acerta, rolando na tabela de sucessos decisivos aleatórios.
89-90 Acerta aliado em área ameaçada, ou a si mesmo, rolando na tabela de sucessos decisivos aleatórios.
91-98 Torce o tornozelo. Metade deslocamento por 10 minutos, Destreza CD 20 todo turno ou cai.
99 Role duas vezes, ignorando resultados de 99 ou 100.
100 Role três vezes, ignorando resultados de 99 ou 100.
