I disagree.
In my current RoRL campaign, several have taken Knowledge Local (Sandpoint). With that, they know the town, the surrounding area, The local history (as opposed to the more general area/nation history - knowing who died in the late unplesantness, etc..) and the local legends.
An example could be: We need to cut off the escaping monster, which is the best route/spot to do so? With the skill, you know where the streams are, the places where the river can be forded as well as where the bridges are, you know the layout of the land. This is something that the Gather Information part of Diplomacy can't get you (try to describe to someone how to get to the ford, going thru challenging terrain - not easy unless they also know the terrain).
If some of my players follow their past behaviors, they will probably take Knowledge Local (Magnimar). One already has, but their backstory indicates that they are from there.
I disagree.
In my current RoRL campaign, several have taken Knowledge Local (Sandpoint). With that, they know the town, the surrounding area, The local history (as opposed to the more general area/nation history - knowing who died in the late unplesantness, etc..) and the local legends.
An example could be: We need to cut off the escaping monster, which is the best route/spot to do so? With the skill, you know where the streams are, the places where the river can be forded as well as where the bridges are, you know the layout of the land. This is something that the Gather Information part of Diplomacy can't get you (try to describe to someone how to get to the ford, going thru challenging terrain - not easy unless they also know the terrain).
If some of my players follow their past behaviors, they will probably take Knowledge Local (Magnimar). One already has, but their backstory indicates that they are from there.
Only that is not the way, Knowledge (local) is supposed to work. There is no Knowledge Local (Somewhere), there is only Knowledge (local), and the same skill applies everywhere, no matter where you are.
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Only that is not the way, Knowledge (local) is supposed to work. There is no Knowledge Local (Somewhere), there is only Knowledge (local), and the same skill applies everywhere, no matter where you are.
That's not my reading of the rule.
FORGOTTEN REALMS® Campaign Setting Errata
Elminster's CR: Change from 45 to 39.
Also, change “Knowledge (local)” to “Knowledge (Dalelands)” in his skill list.
Which I consider ridiculous. How does Knowledge of a city on one end of a continent apply to a city on the opposite side of the continent? Or on a different continent for that matter.
Only that is not the way, Knowledge (local) is supposed to work. There is no Knowledge Local (Somewhere), there is only Knowledge (local), and the same skill applies everywhere, no matter where you are.
So do I. I was just pointing out the rules.
Only that is not the way, Knowledge (local) is supposed to work. There is no Knowledge Local (Somewhere), there is only Knowledge (local), and the same skill applies everywhere, no matter where you are.That's not my reading of the rule.
FORGOTTEN REALMS® Campaign Setting Errata
Elminster's CR: Change from 45 to 39.
Also, change “Knowledge (local)” to “Knowledge (Dalelands)” in his skill list.
It's possible that there are special rules for the Forgotten Realms that might even go hand in hand with the FR rules for regions and regional feats. I don't really know FR special rules, but they are certainly not Core D&D.
Also, please remember that the FORGOTTEN REALMS® Campaign Setting book is NOT a D&D 3.5 book. Knowledge might have worked differently in D&D 3.0.
If you check out the Knowledge skill in either the D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook or the D&D 3.5 SRD, however, you will find nothing to indicate that Knowledge (local) is supposed to have subdivision or is otherwise different from any other Knowledge skill.
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If you check out the Knowledge skill in either the D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook or the D&D 3.5 SRD, however, you will find nothing to indicate that Knowledge (local) is supposed to have subdivision or is otherwise different from any other Knowledge skill.
You're right about how Knowledge (local) officially works. It seems to be a general know-about-anyplace skill. Which we all see to agree is silly, and which is why so many folks use it as Knowledge (insert specific place).
I've seen several people advocate for a general skill called Streetwise that incorporates Gather Information and a form of urban Survival. Depending on how into social encounters you are, you could just use Streetwise as Gather Information, or you could use it to know where to look and then follow it up with Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate to actually get the information out of someone [I favor the latter option].
Even if that were to happen, I think there is a place for Knowledge skills for specific locations, Knowledge (Sandpoint) and Knowledge (Korvosa), etc. #1 players wouldn't always have to look for information if they already knew it, and #2 it might reveal information that that is hard for an outsider to gather, so maybe at a lower DC.
On the idea of giving players free ranks in Knowledge (hometown), a few ranks is probably fair but in real life there is variation in how much knowledge people have about about where they live. Some people love history and know all the stories, others love gossip and know who's doing what (or whom ;), and others are blissfully ignorant. I think you can assume some base knowledge but not automatic expertise. In Pathfinder terms, maybe everyone gets one free rank in Knowledge (hometown) and it is automatically a class skill (+3), plus their Int bonus. After that, you're on your own to get to know your town better.
Beyond Knowledge (hometown) I'd be leery of giving away free ranks. Following the Alpha's logic, I'd try to keep most extra stuff out of the calculation of skill ranks and handle it through bonuses. Sandpoint is in Varisia. I wouldn't give free ranks in Knowledge (Varisia), instead I'd give anyone who's hometown is in Varisia a +2 on Knowledge (history, geography, nobility, etc.) checks having to do with Varisia.
In summary, I'd go with Streetwise for gathering information (or at least knowing where to look) when you're out of your hometown, and Knowledge (hometown) when you're in it.
OR you could just give a +4 bonus to Streetwise when you're in your hometown. That would actually be the easiest way to handle it.
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I understand the flavor such a skill may add to character background, but mechanically it is little more than a skill point sink.
For adventures which will whisk the party to the four corners of the Material Plane, there is very little reason for the PCs to take the skill themselves. For adventures based in and around a major or large city (Five Fingers in my last campaign), it proved very useful. For PC rogues who want to join a guild, it's mandatory (in my campaigns).
Very often, when arriving to a new location X, my players make a Gather Info check to look for the local NPC who "knows everything that is to know about the place" i.e. with the highest Knowledge (local X) rank. The "Take me to your wise(wo)man" routine is as common as the "Is there a library in this town?".
I don't think that a skill which will not get much direct use by the PCs is useless. Just like Craft (basketweaving), they should get someone else to make the skill check.
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For adventures which will whisk the party to the four corners of the Material Plane, there is very little reason for the PCs to take the skill themselves.
One more thing: I think it's the DM's duty to help the players make informed skill and ability choices. It is not necessary to reveal the plot in order to drop a gentle hint that Favoured Enemy (dragons) or Knowledge (planes) aren't really the season's trend...
Only that is not the way, Knowledge (local) is supposed to work. There is no Knowledge Local (Somewhere), there is only Knowledge (local), and the same skill applies everywhere, no matter where you are.
Actually, there's no way to be sure of that from the RAW. There is no specific language to say that Know (local) applies to every locality, nor is there language to say that it must be limited to a specific locality. Given the ambiguity, DMs have been free to do as they will.
However, considering the FR campaign books and the Living Greyhawk have all focused on Know (local) meaning Know (some specific locality), it's my guess that the designers meant for it to be specific and not applicable to everywhere.
Actually, there's no way to be sure of that from the RAW. There is no specific language to say that Know (local) applies to every locality, nor is there language to say that it must be limited to a specific locality. Given the ambiguity, DMs have been free to do as they will.
Using the same logic you could argue that Knowledge (arcana) makes no sense, but that it should be Knowledge (evocation), Knowledge (conjuration), Knowledge (necromancy), and so on, and that probably the designers meant it that way.
There is no ambiguity in the PHB rules.
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However, considering the FR campaign books and the Living Greyhawk have all focused on Know (local) meaning Know (some specific locality), it's my guess that the designers meant for it to be specific and not applicable to everywhere.
Seconded and thirded.
I'll just add:
DMG 3.5, page 86
"Chance to Get Lost:
If conditions exist that make getting lost a possibility, the character leading the way must succeed on a Survival check or become lost.
[...]
A character with at least 5 ranks in Knowledge (geography) or Knowledge (local) pertaining to the area being traveled through
gains a +2 bonus on this check."
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However, considering the FR campaign books and the Living Greyhawk have all focused on Know (local) meaning Know (some specific locality), it's my guess that the designers meant for it to be specific and not applicable to everywhere.
This is very true. For the Realms there was a specific reason they made Knowledge (Waterdeep) though. If you were from Shadowdale (New York) and you wanted to take feats that were only available to people from Waterdeep (California), then you had to have so many ranks in Knowledge (Waterdeep) to get access to said Regional feats.
As Knowledge (Local) works in the PHB, it does not actually say cities. You just have knowledge of local dungeons, people, laws, etc. Just like Knowledge (Planes) is a general planes knowledge and doesn't focus in on one specific plane.
I would REALLY like to see Pathfinder RPG refine Knowledge (Local) into being the Forgotten Realms version, where it's a knowledge skill for a specific place; Knowledge (Sandpoint) or Knowledge (Korvosa).
I would REALLY like to see Pathfinder RPG refine Knowledge (Local) into being the Forgotten Realms version, where it's a knowledge skill for a specific place; Knowledge (Sandpoint) or Knowledge (Korvosa).
I'm all for that, too
I would counter this would be Knowledge Geography (or possibly Nature) which need not be location specific as certain terrain features follow certain patterns in relation to each other. Water flows the the lowest point and follows the path of least resistance. Water cuts through soil more easily than through stone.
Hmm, have you ever been out in the bush or any kind of badlands?
Yes, water flows down hill in the normal course of events, and usually by the shortest manner. But, there are times when the shortest route is blocked by something, so the water goes around it or is turned in it's direction. That is why rivers don't run in straight lines.
But without local area knowledge, there is no way to know that to get thru this stretch of ravines, that you have to go up the one with the red rock, then take the 3rd right ravine, immediately left and keep on, even when it looks like it dead ends, as there is a blind turn there.
I use Knowledge (local) more along the lines of a combination anthropolgy/sociology/law degree. The character has at least basic knowledge of various human(oid) traits, legal systems, customs, etc. that can be used to understand a local situation. If the character is in his "home territory" he might get a bonus on this check. If he's in a neighboring land, it's a basic check (possibly with slight penalties). If he's in a far-off/foreign land the check is always with penalties. The character may not know the specifc customs/laws on the other side of the planet, but he knows enough about human(oids) to figure them out fairly quickly. If the character spends enough time in a location, these penalties can be reduced (esp. if the actual player demonstrates gaining knowledge about the area). And if that same character spends enough time away from "home" he may gain penalties there (esp. if there's a major cultural shift, change in government, etc.).
I used to try the route of making it specific to each region in a campaign setting, but that just gets too fiddly for my tastes. The above system works great for me, makes the skill usefull, and mirrors real-life folks that just know a lot about human nature, cultural development, etc.
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I use Knowledge (local) more along the lines of a combination anthropolgy/sociology/law degree.
That works superbly well for modern adventures set in a technologically advanced world, where information travels extremely quickly to great distances.
In a medieval fantasy world, people who know about other places and customs are scholars and merchants who have ranks in Knowledge (law, religion, royalty, and nobility, history, and geography etc. Knowledge (local) is the province of the locals, most of which will be born, will live and die without leaving their village or town.
In a medieval fantasy world, people who know about other places and customs are scholars and merchants who have ranks in Knowledge (law, religion, royalty, and nobility, history, and geography etc. Knowledge (local) is the province of the locals, most of which will be born, will live and die without leaving their village or town.
Not with the Knowledge (local) skill as written. Want to ID an unknown Humanoid (the monster type)? Knowledge (local) does the trick. Just like Knowledge (arcana) can identify any Dragon or Magical Beast. Want to understand people better so you can dig up more info at the new port where you've disembarked? Knowledge (local) provides that boost to Gather Information via a synergy bonus. Customs? Laws? Traditions? All covered by Knowledge (local).
I understand this approach is jarring to some folks--surely no pre-Renaissance person could have that sort of broad knowledge. But that's not really the case from my perspective--I could readily see historical explorers such as Marco Polo modeled in d20 by having high ranks in this skill. Sure he had ranks in other Knowledge skills such as History, Geography, and Nobility, but I don't see those properly covering this specific area of understanding basic human nature and cultural development. Having a system to apply modifiers by familiarity, at least for me, is a preferred solution to either sucking this skill into others or exploding it out into a by-region selection. Sure a local-yocal that knows all the rumors of the community can also be modeled with this skill--I don't see that as contradictory to this approach.
Maybe the knowledges should have a entirely different mechanic from the others skills, because is very hard to separate background learning and on site learning.
The Savage Worlds rule set actually has a nifty approach, called Common Knowledge, because of this very issue. Anything reasonably related to a character via his background/experience is simply a Common Knowledge roll. Now, they do also have Knowledge as a specific skill, but it is very focused and not necessary to cover just specifying what a character should know anyway.
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It does make sense to have knowledge (local) useful as a monster ID skill, but at the same time the knowing about all the little nooks and crannies about every city when you've spent your entire life in backwatersburg doesn't really make sense. So, what I propose is something along the lines that Keith Baker did on the Wizards boards back when Eberron was still new.
My suggestion is that you are familiar with a number of areas equal to your number of ranks. The size of the area is up to the DM. Ideally, these areas should be areas where the culture, geography, and architecture are relatively homogenized. Outside of your selected areas, you just can't make knowledge (local) checks. However, you must have spent enough time to really become familiar with the area, let's say a week for the sake of argument. And all you do during this week, is getting the lay of the land, hearing old stories, getting completely lost in the back alleys, etc.
It's kind of like linguistics. It stretches believability to think that someone can become that someone can become familiar with so many different areas, but Linguistics isn't any better. How many people do you know that can speak 7 different languages, while being a virtuoso singer and able to play nearly any piece of music ever written on any instrument and be able to quote obscure facts that would stump the return Jeopardy champ before they're 25? (And yes this is referring to a 1st level bard, in case you were curious)
I've used this approach in my games, and it has yet to break anyone's brain. Unlike 3.5 Grapple rules.
I would prefer to see something like Regional Lore combining Knowledge Local, Knowledge Geography, Knowledge History and Knowledge Nobility. They all essentially are relevant to a region, and they're relatively weak skills, so combining them in this manner would not be excessive.
I had the same problems with this skill.
While I like the idea of region specific knowledge (local) skills, they are just to narrow and to much of a skill waste for much travelling parties.
Actually I would combine knowledge (local) and knowledge (geography) into knowledge (???"far-traveled adventurer"???) and include stuff like, knowing in with direction a city or country would to be found, which goverment they have, what rules or traditions they follow, etc.
People in the medievil times didn't have radio, tv or newspapers, so the only "stuff they could get" was the stuff going on in their home country.
Therefore I would let every player roll a level check to remember infos about their homes.