The revised wish spell states a major change: "Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score by permanently reducing another ability score. [snip]"
I for one do NOT like this change. Reducing another ability score at a +1:-1 ratio with a pricetag of 25,000gp per plus strikes me as a rip-off. That's not to mention the fact that it makes players who use this method essentially shoe-horn their characters into a specific role since they effectively cripple their versatility. That seems odd to me considering other changes in PF that essentially work to improve the versatility of characters (no cross-class skill, more feats, more class abilities, at-will powers).
Compare this cost to a magic item providing an ability score bonus that has no space limitation on the body:
ITEM: Bonus Squared × 1000 × 2
+1 = 2,000; +2 = 8,000; +3 = 18,000; +4 = 36,000; +5 = 50,000
WISH: Bonus × 25,000
+1 = 25,000; +2 = 50,000; +3 = 75,000; +4 = 100,000; +5 = 125,000
While it is true that the Inherent bonus will stack with an Enhancement bonus to the same stat and can't be disarmed or stolen (except perhaps with a disjunction), IMO the extreme cost of the Inherent bonus already balances those benefits. At a price difference of 75,000gp for a +5 bonus, we're talking about a character already sacrificing a major magic item that could well provide far more game benefit than +2.5 to one ability modifer. Adding a penalty to other ability scores is essentially double-whammy.
Just remember...these are only rules. If you DM, use what rules you see fit in your game and don't use what you don't like.
Yeah "Rule 0" I get it. I can also appreciate it if someone disagrees with me.
However, this is the feedback forum for the development of an RPG. We're offering feedback to achieve the best set of unified rules possible. Simply pointing to Rule 0 doesn't actually help with that endeavor. :-\
As for limiting the Wish spell, I agree that it's good to have constraints on it. IMO though, that particular constraint has far to high a cost for simply shuffling ability scores and does more harm than good. As written they might as well just come out and say, "Thou shalt not use the Wish spell to affect thy Ability Scores!"
I'd also like to add that by the time a party can have Wish cast 5x in a row, they are most likely facing truly epic encounters. In light of how powerful such adversaries, an extra stackable +5 doesn't even begin to keep up with those of the demon princes and demigods that the party will be facing.
As an alternative, perhaps a limit on how often such a bonus can be applied might be appropriate. If characters can only gain one inherent bonus per level (or per year) from wish, it makes burning ten or so wishes to boost key attributes impossible in the short term.
As the rules are currently written, the only way to get an Inherent bonus is thru multiple castings of wish in immediate succession.
If there was a lengthy delay between castings, that would mean that it would take 15 wishes over the course of 5 years to achieve a +5 Inherent bonus to a single ability score. That's 375,000gp — compared to some of the insanely powerful epic weapons and armors available for that much gold, a +5 bonus to a single ability score is far too trivial for that to be a balanced cost.
Also, the passage of time in D&D doesn't have quite the same impact on the characters as it does in the RealWorld™. For instance, if the party is between adventures and has downtime, it only takes a moment for the DM to say that years have passed. Thus, the only way in which a "cool down timer" on the granting of Inherent bonuses is relevant is if the party is mid-adventure.
Now, if the Wish spell were reworded so that multiple concurrent castings are not required to increase the Inherent bonus, maybe then limiting them to 1/year could work without ripping off the characters.
|
I don't like the negative to a score either. A lot of people didn't.
I would get rid of the negative score and make it so wish can only be used once per level to increase an ability score, that includes other characters.
So a Wizard can either do it to himself or to someone else and then he can't do it again until next level. That seems a better compromise to me.
I don't like the negative to a score either. A lot of people didn't.
Is there already an existing discussion of this somewhere that You could link to? I couldn't find one before starting this topic, but I'd like to see what was said.
I flat out will not use the 1 for 1 rule. I flat out don't like it. It is unnecessary. Blech!
What occurred to me the other day is that if its the idea that you can boost a stat without lowering another stat that is the sticking point, you can now create the various manuals that give you inherent bonuses to ability scores without XP costs, so you can still boost an ability score without dropping another one, but you have to be able to craft wondrous items.
I don't think d20 wish is broken. Put it back the way it was. It was capped at +5 anyway. That's not terribly game-breaking at 20th level anyway.
I don't like the negative to a score either. A lot of people didn't.
I would get rid of the negative score and make it so wish can only be used once per level to increase an ability score, that includes other characters.
So a Wizard can either do it to himself or to someone else and then he can't do it again until next level. That seems a better compromise to me.
But in order to bump up a stat more than +1, you need to cast wish in rapid succession. Your method means no more than +1 to any stat... and a wizard will only be able to bump up 4 stats in his pre-epic career.
At least with the Pathfinder version you can cast it 5 times to bump up a particular stat (say Int.), even at the cost of 5 points (say 3 to strength and 2 to charisma)... and are closer to where you would have been in 3.5.
For what it's worth, I vote for going back to 3.5's version of wish.
I don't like either.
For what it's worth, I vote for going back to 3.5's version of wish.
yes, I agree.
For what it's worth, I vote for going back to 3.5's version of wish.
Same here. High level character/NPC conversion could get annoying with this change, the players who invested in wishes would feel shafted and 3.5 version has synergy with level increases (5+5 = 10).
I just noticed this in the beta, and yeah, I don't like it either.
It doesn't make sense that a 9th level spell could essentially duplicate something you can do for free at character creation (to a point).
Get rid of it.
I don't like it either - let's go back to the 3.5E Wish.
In fact, if the designers believe that spending gold in lieu of experience points is not balanced for Wish, why do they think it is balanced for other spells? I think it is balanced, but if the designers think it isn't, let's just increase the cost.
The way I see it, if you are giving up a point for a point, the spell level could be much lower than 9. Also, why spend 125,000 gp to get a +5 (and lower another score by 5) when you could simply create or buy the appropriate magic item for less and get a +5 inherent bonus without penalty.
Also, the spell is called "wish" not "sacrifice".
I don't like the negative to a score either. A lot of people didn't.
I would get rid of the negative score and make it so wish can only be used once per level to increase an ability score, that includes other characters.
So a Wizard can either do it to himself or to someone else and then he can't do it again until next level. That seems a better compromise to me.
I like that, but there should be a cap to it. Otherwise, powerful gods, wizards, sorceres, magical beings etc who have access to wish and can increase in power could constantly increase their stats.
Maybe a cap of 1/3 your total level/ HD. that way, by 20th level, characters could only have up to +6 bonus as opposed to +20.