Skill Revision (p. 52)

[Ernest Mueller]

I have to say, I'm disappointed at returning to a full rank driven system. Removing the complexity from 3.5e is one of the most valuable things you can do with Pathfinder.

And the current implementation of "+3 to trained class skills" really encourages someone to put at least one rank into every single class skill to get all those free bonus points.

[Bill Dunn]

Ernest Mueller wrote:

And the current implementation of "+3 to trained class skills" really encourages someone to put at least one rank into every single class skill to get all those free bonus points.

That really doesn't bother me because, while they are quite a bonus relative to the input, it just means that you have the skill a 1st level character would have, which ain't a whole heck of a lot. In other words, without investing more points as you go up in levels, you may end up with a character with a broad skill base, but not a lot of in-depth ability.

[Gabriel Domingues]

Ernest Mueller wrote:

I have to say, I'm disappointed at returning to a full rank driven system. Removing the complexity from 3.5e is one of the most valuable things you can do with Pathfinder.

And the current implementation of "+3 to trained class skills" really encourages someone to put at least one rank into every single class skill to get all those free bonus points.

I my opinion a good implementation to PFRPG skills system would be to make it simple as that:

Trained Class Skills - 1d20 + ability modifier + Character level (maximum +20 bonus at 20th level).
(if you use the ranks system, you gain a +1 bonus for each 1 rank you put into the skill).

Trained Cross-class skills - 1d20 + ability modifier + 1/2 character level (maximum +10 bonus at 20th level).
(if you use the ranks system, you gain a +0.5 bonus for each 1 rank you put into the skill).

Advantages:
-Reduces complexity of the skills system, removing the odd math of "character level + 3" for calculating class skills, and "1/2(Character level +3)" for calculating cross-class skills.

-Simultaneously, keep the differences between classes wich are more capable of using a specific set of class skills (e.g. rogue and rangers in relation to the stealth skill).

-Lastly, the "+3" bonus from 3.5e is totally pointless. You do not need to give a +3 extra bonus at first level (increasing skill´s system complexity) just to make a "sound" difference between characters with trained class skills and characters with cross-class skill, at lower levels.

The difference between trained class skills and cross-class skills will be set by:

(i) different ability scores modifiers (e.g. while rogues focus on Dexterity and favor light armor, fighters use to focus on Strength and favor medium/heavy armor);

(ii) as characters advance in levels, the skill bonus progression will make the difference between trained class skills and cross-class skills become more and more apparent (also characters tend to improve their focused ability scores at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th, increasing their key ability modifiers).

(iii) Similar mechanic is already used by 3.5e and PFRPG if we compare Fighter´s BAB progression and Wizard´s BAB progression, specially at lower levels. At lower levels, what makes the difference between these BABs is more the focused ability scores, than the BAB progression for itself.

[Gabriel Domingues]

Sorry double post.

[Mark Rennick]

Our group began using the original skill progression from the alpha rules, and we're sticking to it! I like the way each character began with a skill set defined by his or her class. The definitive change to the skill system for me was the combining of similar skills so "skilled" characters (rogues and bards) are able to learn most, if not all skills at their most effective level. As the DM, I love the fact that our bard chose to place the +2 stat modifier in her Int to gain the extra skill! She also commented that it allowed her to really use the knowledge skills!

We intend to continue to use that option, so I'm wondering if it might be valuable to include both skill progressions in the final product, so groups can choose the one that best suits their style!