Monks are support and mobility combatants, generally speaking, useful in moving around the battlefield to assist with problems. In this regard, they gain a number of abilities that allow them to work without the aid of others, which many of the other, straight fighter classes, lack to one degree or another.
Telling me that this is just a band aid, without any playtesting, because they do not get a full BAB, is not very helpful to my development.
This is something to keep in mind in terms of goals to shoot for. And, of course, I'll be playtesting this class rather than making assumptions. We're shooting for a 50% (+/- 10%) success rate on average, and significant variance past this range is a sign of either too much power or too little. My method will involve three trials per challenge, and the environment will tend towards the creature's natural habitat or a dungeon room if no such location is given. Because of the monk's sneak bonus, he will generally get to pick the vector of engagement, which gives him an advantage.
As a reminder, I would prefer we not have this thread filled with the same arguments towards the validity of this playtest style. It has been argued ad nauseum, and sufficient numbers have become entrenched in their opinion to the point that further discussion borders on beligerence.
Robert Greyfriar the Half-orc Monk - Level 5
Stats (High Fantasy): Str 20, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 7
Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Perception, Stealth
Feats: Deflect Arrows, Weapon Focus (unarmed), Toughness, Dodge, Improved Grapple
Equipment: Belt of Strength +2, Bracers of Armor +1, Boots of Elvenkind (+5 sneak), Cloak of Resistance +1, 3 potions of lesser vigor, Climbing Kit, Quarterstaff, Sling w/bullets, Shurikens, Troll killing equipment
Challenges
* Huge animated iron statue: We have two options here, neither work. Ranged is just not an option due to a lack of damage output (and only a 10' superiority in speed). Melee is a slaughterfest. The best our monk has to hope for is the ability to run away with his stealth, which is still a loss. 0/3 here.
* Basilisk: First fight, he dies in the second round because of the gaze, and a 35% fail rate is just too high a risk, so we're going to fighting blind from here on. The next two fights are grueling, filled with blood and tears on both sides, but the monk manages to take out the basilisk by the skin of his teeth. 2/3 is the score for this challenge.
* Large Fire Elemental: Like McNinja Senior, the elemental realizes that ninjas such as Robert won't try to punch or grapple when it's on fire. This cuts down our damage and attack bonus. I don't even need to bother here, the monk's fighting a foe with a better AC, attack bonus routine, and damage; and this is before factoring the noticeable chance of the monk being set on fire or the noticeable DR. We've got an anti-hat trick going on. 0/3
* Manticore on the wing: We don't have trees of note, so Bobby's going to jump for the nearest deep bog, go total defense, and shout out disparages concerning the flying manticore's heritage until it runs out of spikey doom. However, despite only getting hit twice (on average), this proved to be enough of a lead all three times for the manticore to rip the monk to shreds. On closer inspection, the spikes weren't even necessary for the manticore to win. It just plain did more damage and has half again the monk's health. 0/3.
* Mummy: As soon as combat begins, our monk falls to the mummy's despair and then gets his neck snapped. On the third fight, he's only out for a round, which doesn't give our mummy time to get over and perform the coup de grace. It does, however, give our little monk time to contemplate the horror he's facing and still fails. 0/3.
* Phase Spider: This creature's fighting style eliminates what little advantage could be had with flurry of blows due to the requisite readied action, and the poison is a noticeable danger. Fortunately, the phase spider's attack bonus against a non-flat-footed target is subpar, and thus can't keep up with even the monk's single attack. The third fight resulted in our monk failing the first two bites (and scratching the spider), and sufficient poison damage was dealt to take him down. 2/3.
* Troll: Regeneration makes ranged combat a non-option for Robert Greyfriar, but at least he has the mobility and stealth to open up with a divebomb attack. While it would be cool to bull rush him into a chasm, or do anything involving a combat maneuver, it's bonus makes it so our monk needs a natural 19+ for anything to happen. Our fight opens with a banzai shouting monk that punches the troll in the face and then opens with three more punches before it gets to go. A comic whimper is given by Robert when the troll finally turns around and grins down at the little half-orc, and tears him limb-from-limb in that first round. This happens a second time, and the third fight our monk got to spit up blood and cry for mercy before going down on round two. Our most painful 0/3 yet.
* A chasm: About bloody time something goes our way. Our monk can jump across if it's 35' across or less without even rolling. 3/3, huzzah!
* A moat filled with acid: Much like the chasm. I sincerely doubt we're going to be seeing a 50' wide moat, so this is yet another 3/3 for Robert. It feels like his loyalty to this class is finally coming through.
* A locked door behind a number of pit traps: So far, it seems that the only real challenge that our monk can handle is a hole in the ground. He gets past the pit traps without comment, either being too shallow or not doing enough damage to matter where he can then climb out readily. The door however, proves to be the biggest hurdle. He does enough damage with his staff to actually harm it 50% of the time. So it only takes about a minute of wailing on the lock with a stick to get it open. Rather loud, but technically a victory for 3/3.
* Pit filled with medium monstrous scorpions: Our monk only failed the check against falling in once, which did result in a most horrifically violent death. The other two times, he walked around it. 2/3.
* Centaur archer duo in the woods: It would seem that their rank in survival goes towards hunting half-orc monks, which is all that's needed when they go faster, shoot farther, and hit harder. They have the technology, you see, sticks and string. 0/3.
* Howler/Allip tag team: The howler, by itself, can take out the monk. The Allip simply seals the deal and sends the corpse to the madhouse. 0/3.
* Grimlock Assault Team: Both sides are quite stealthy, except for the fact that grimlocks can smell the fact Robert is apparently one of those types of monks that abstains from bathing, and are very much on the alert. The element of surprise lost, he goes in, fists a-flailin'. He suffers a lucky critical and goes down, but the other two times we simply output barely enough damage going full flurry to take them all out. 2/3
Observations
We're only at level 5, and already the monk's barely got a score of 35%. His speed didn't even reach that of a barbarian's until level 3, and all his mobility means nothing when he has to stand still to actually bring his full (& subpar) offense to the table. His defense is mediocre, with an AC noticeably less than any armor wearer (at greater cost), combined with 'meh' hit points. His saves aren't great at any point either; as there's a difference between a great save and a non-crap save.
I don't need to continue for the most part, because the upgrades that have been given to the monk raised his performance by about 10% in the areas I expected it to improve. The performance of the original 3.5 monk were increasingly debilitating as the levels got higher, and the bonuses given have already been shown to be insufficient at level 5, and they certainly aren't getting increasingly better to account for the monk's destiny of failure.
The monk doesn't actually get proficiency in unarmed strike (notice his proficiency list). Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't grant proficiency, only negates the AoO and allows for the option for lethal damage. I performed this playtest on the assumption that the text is reworded, but it remains a flaw in the class that needs attention.
Scorpion Style has a conceptual problem, outside of its uselessness in solo. Because it's a full-round action for only one attack, you are sacrificing both your mobility and your damage output in exchange for the monster's mobility. Also, because you are keeping the victim in melee range, this lends itself towards you becoming the tank; of which you are not designed for nor even intended towards (by Jason's stated goals).
Grapple is a wash in terms of effectiveness. The monk is only marginally better at the best of times (so far), and he still gets just as stabbed in the face as before. Because it's a standard action to perform, this is visibly worse as a combat tactic than flurry of blows, except as a delaying maneuver. Delaying a monster by hugging its teeth is about as bad as the Scorpion Style, an obvious tanking maneuver for something that's explicitly not a tank.
Jump doesn't get a bonus from faster-than-normal speed anymore, I noticed. Was this intentional? Also, fly is available by level 5 to spellcasters; and this isn't even counting levitate two levels earlier. Even with High Jump and max ranks, our monk isn't even getting 15' off the ground until level 10 or so (we better hope that ceiling's only 25' high).
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It proves that Monk still can't pull its own weight.
Not true. This playtest proves exactly what Jason said right off, which is that you cannot replace a monk with a primary combatant. However, D&D has a number of different varieties of support characters, all of whom have a measurable impact of party capability and all of whom require allies to reach their full potential: marshals, bards and dragon shamans, just to name the most common. Frank's original post, way back when, on the topic of Level X vs CR X specifically noted the possibility that you would need to test such characters in pairs to determine their effectiveness.
Squirrelloid and I both suggested in that other thread that monks would best function as what Squirrelloid called a "melee debuffer," which is a path that has nothing to do with dealing damage. Instead, you want to drop status conditions on opponents, to interfere with their ability to attack you, while simultaneously inflicting damage on them.
So here's my suggestion: rebuild Robert to try this tactic, then clone him. Put the two of him up against a series of CR 7 challenges and see what happens. Perhaps we will see no improvement. Perhaps it will suddenly burst into effectiveness. But either way, it will actually be in the vein that Jason has suggested for the class' direction.
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Actually, looking back through it, the playtest is actually pretty seriously flawed. A monk with a Will save of +8 never once makes a DC 16 save vs the mummy's fear? Grappling the troll only takes a 14 on the die - in addition to being nothing like "only possible a 19+," never trying it strikes me as a completely worthless playtest. I mean, what's the point of having Improved Grapple if you never try to use it? And speaking of unused feats, Deflect Arrows? Seriously?
I'm not in any way defending the monk per se, but I really think we could do better here.
A few problems with your test, besides the validity:
You're missing 3 ability score points from your build.
Ability scores should be:
Stats (High Fantasy): Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 7
For 5 more hp, +1 Fort saves. I presume you had 39 total before, for new total of 44 hp.
Feats: Stunning Fist over Improved Grapple - every time. That could make a nice difference. A lot harder to playtest with only 3 trials of course. Probably a better choice out there than Dodge or Weapon Focus Unarmed, but they're decent (as long as you were remembering to count the Dodge AC).
Equipment: You didn't mention ever using the potions of lesser vigor. Given all the Sneak bonuses you chose, starting battle with a freshly quaffed one would be reasonable I think.
Challenges: I'll not fuss about it too much, but you do seem to be lacking any caster types or other low str/fort save types. Also - you did take Deflect Arrows into account for the Manticore and Centaurs I hope?
Last, I must say that 5th level is a rather cruel level to test the monk at. They get no combat improvement at all other than a +1 to flurries (no damage, AC, or movement). That plus CR 5 is where a lot of nasties start showing up, that are usually geared for a party newly spouting off fireballs and such. 4th or 6th would be a much fairer test.
However, if what I've mentioned above eeks out just 5% more wins, then it passes your 50% +/- 10% test.
I have no idea what you expect out of a monk. The only debuffs a level 5 can even attempt is Scorpion Style, grapple, & trip. Scorpion Style is actually the best of the bunch, because it does damage and the monk doesn't have to roll abnormally high to perform it. However, this then makes him a mobility class stuck in melee.
The only debuffs this monk is bringing to the table are the kind that make him a primary target, which makes him the high fantasy equivalent to a D&D ensign with his survivability.
As for choice of encounters, there are virtually no sources for Evasion for our rogue except against wyrmling dragons, and they'll kill him with their bodies more than anything anyway. And what strengths are there for this monk to capitalize? I gave him four challenges that were EL 5 and consisted of a hole in the ground, which he passed with flying colors.
Unarmed strike is not a natural weapon, because natural weapons are considered armed attacks that do not provoke AoOs when used (on top of the automatic proficiency). Look at the weapon table, and you'll see unarmed strike in the simple weapon category.
I don't need to get too detailed in the analysis at this point, because I can readily pull out a duplicator from the set of Farscape and zap Robert Greyfriar when he's level 3 and then throw him against the same EL 5 challenges.
Robert Greyfriar and the Mirror of Anti-opposition
Feats: Toughness, Dodge, Deflect Arrows
Equipment: Bracers of Armor +1, Cloak of Resistance +1, Masterwork Quarterstaff (one end only)
* Huge Animated Iron Statue: Each monk goes down in two hits, and each monk is lucky to deal 4 damage in a single round. It's like watching a clown fight a weeble-wooble with a sausage. 0/3
* Basilisk: Much like before, but for the first fight we have two garden monks. Otherwise, it's two blind folks flailing about like crazy people. 2/3.
* Large Fire Elemental: Fighting a living bonfire remains a poor life choice. 0/3.
* Manticore on the Wing: They aren't as stealthy by a long shot, and one dies before the manticore touches the ground every time. It then comes down to gnaw on the screaming clone. 0/3.
* Mummy: Their Will saves are lower, which gives it time to kill one and then get wailed on by the survivor, who then gets broken in half.
* Phase Spider: I just remembered the fact the poison comes back to haunt the victim a minute later, even after killing it. There are some tears of loss as the survivor awaits his death. 3/3.
* Chasm & Moat: Like before, but this time the two hold hands and skip across with a look of pure joy on their faces. 3/3 x2.
* Locked Door behind a number of pit traps: We don't have slow fall anymore, which means we actually lose one to falling damage for one of the tests. However, the other continues and takes close to two minutes of wailing (one minute with both) to open the lock. 3/3
* Pit of scorpions: At least one survives without falling in for two attempts, while the third apparently had the two engrossed in mutual navel staring to prevent the fall and subsequent poisonous death. 2/3
* Pair of Centaur Archers: Second verse, same as the first. 0/3
* Howler/Allip tag team: The howler actually goes down on one of the fights, but the allip makes proper vengeance. 0/3.
* Grimlock Assault Team: Doubling the monk's numbers just makes it all the easier for them to be noticed, but their combined HP prevents anything from happening. 3/3
Observation
I actually only reduced the monk's individual numbers by about one or two across the board. Having two just about doubles the damage output compared to the level 5 one and a combined HP of half again. The overall success rate increases to about 40%, which is still subpar.
You could probably double the monk's damage output and give a free toughness feat, and you'll still end up in the "barely tolerable" range.
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I don't understand. Did all these combats take place in some sort flat-to-the-horizon gladitorial arena? Is the goal to kill every creature or are they guarding something the monk needs to get to?
I would think, if you were a monk player, the last thing you would do is run up to an animated iron statue and start punching it. That pit that the monk so gracefully jumped over in test #7...could the iron statue make the same jump? The large fire elemental...was there no water around? Or perhaps some area the swift monk could trick the low intelligence creature into?
Virgil, I'm sure a lot of us appreciate these tests, but they seem to be seeking a Mortal Kombat style of balance. If that's the case, a boulder could win half of these challenges.
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Could you humor us and do some tests where the goal is to 'Get the Idol' and flee from its guardian? If you have the time. Thanks!
Ah, I forgot about the ability bonus I can use to only buy strength to a 15 and then pump to 16. That does give him another 3 points that I can use to upgrade his Constitution. From my notes, that just barely gives him enough to go for a hat trick on the grimlocks.
The troll has a CMB of +13, which makes the DC 28, and I only had a +12 with Improved Grapple (my bad, a 16+ is needed, which is still bad odds). On top of this fact, I'm giving myself one attack per round while not actually hindering the troll's three.
I factored Deflect Arrows for the manticore and the centaurs. It took a while for the centaurs to kill him, but they could, and there wasn't anything Bobby could do anyway.
I actually just got unlucky for the monk and his saves against the mummy. Not that it terribly mattered, since it's still going to beat him in melee.
I'll run the monk through with Stunning Fist over Improved Grapple and see what happens.
When you run that next set of playtests, it'd be interesting to see how the monk fairs against several spellcasters. Say, a half-orc druid, a human cleric, and an elven wizard, for example. Maybe a few other critters that force some saves or use magic (or both). Before commenting that the monk is made to kill spellcasters (which I agree with), it'd be nice to see how effective he really IS at doing so. And I'm suggesting 3 different casters because they'll all fight differently: wildshape, buffing, and blasting or save-or-die magic.
I did use the potions when I was able, but the damage that killed Robert came in clumps far too large for that extra 3 or 4 to actually mean anything.
*sigh* The things I do for you people. :P
After painstaking rechecking of the rolls where the monk's stunning fist was able to affect his target (immunity to criticals remains a hurdle for many), I finally got the results. I'll now mention the fights where Stunning Fist actually gave us a win instead of a loss.
* Grimlock Assault Team: 3/3 instead of 2/3
That is all.
I have already mentioned that I do not care for those trying to argue against the validity of the playtest strategy itself, as it has been debated over and over and over with neither side budging for one reason for another. Go back to the Alpha 2 & 1 boards if you want to see those arguments rehashed, because I don't feel like retreading that again. I'll listen and attempt to reconcile other concerns, such as build decisions.
I will admit that if we consider Bobby Greyfriar in plural and use Stunning Fist, we do end up in the tolerable range of balance. It's on the low end, and there's an obvious fragility about a class that has to mix it up in melee with a bunch of tricks to keep him stationary and in melee.
As for him fighting a caster, that's going to take a bit more effort, and I have to vamoosh. Likely tomorrow I'll give anti-caster fighting results. One concern that pops up in my mind is levitate if there's either a high ceiling or open air, but I'll see how that actually works before making a final judgement call.
I factored Deflect Arrows for the manticore and the centaurs. It took a while for the centaurs to kill him, but they could, and there wasn't anything Bobby could do anyway.
Couldn't he have used his sling?
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Virgil this analysis is interesting- thanks for doing the work. I dont need to point out the flaws of solo adventuring.
Whenever we have a monk in the group the first thing that happens is it gets a mage armor cast on it. It still doesnt match it with the fighters but this goes a long way IMO and is not an unreasonable assumption. Alternatively if you insist on the solo thing can you replace one of his potions with a potion of mage armor. How does this effect your numbers?