Rogue still too much of a fighter

[F33b]

Every time I see this thread bumped, I immediately recall the Thug variant presented in UA (and also part of the OGL content.)

[Squirrelloid]

Brit O wrote:

So it seems pretty conclusive. TWF rouge CAN do more damage than a fighter, but only if the AC is almost a full 10 lower than something a fighter can fight reliably. The 30 AC seems about standard on most lvl 16 baddies. So assuming we somehow have a rouge who gets his full attack against an enemy with a low AC and the rouge gets to use his sneak attack on every hit THEN AND ONLY THEN does a rouge do more damage than a fighter on average?

Wait, the color red can do more damage than a fighter? I just thought it went faster...

hint: "ROGUE"

[Kalis]

YULDM wrote:

Thanks for this simulation!

The best option for TWF, starting at 12th-level is to fight with a bastard sword and a short sword, both with the complete Weapon Focus Tree.

The real best option for a twf fighter is great sword and spiked armor. Or if you interpret it loosely, greatsword + snap kick + superior unarmed strike at level 20. That way his primary weapon gets all the benefits of two handed fighting and gets to through in a little extra from the armor spikes. Or he gets two attacks for 2d6(one at 1.5*str mod, and one on 0.5*str mod) for each iterative attack.

[Plognark]

My 2 cents: The new Rogue is good. It really doesn't need any tweaking.

MAYBE drop the +1 BAB req. for weapon finesse; that's about it, and that's not even a specific rogue thing.

[KaeYoss]

Plognark wrote:

My 2 cents: The new Rogue is good. It really doesn't need any tweaking.

MAYBE drop the +1 BAB req. for weapon finesse; that's about it, and that's not even a specific rogue thing.

I'd drop the whole feat, make it a general option open to everyone.

[Slime]

Dreaming Warforged wrote:

What to make of this?

The rogue outshines the Fighter when he gets the right conditions (Low AC and possible Sneak) so no matter how you slice it the rogue get his moment sometimes not all the time and maybe not even most of the time.

Many creatures (even in PF) still can't be sneaked, others can't be flanked, some have blindsight or See The Invisible, especialy at higher level. One can face Concealement or Cover. Getting in flanking position fast enought in rough terrain can be almost impossible. Etc.

You don't sneak when you want, you sneak when you can. The fighter can almost always deliver and if he can't the rogue usualy can't either.

I like it like it is.

Thanks for the compilations DW, keep them coming.

[Brit O]

Squirrelloid wrote:

Brit O wrote:

So it seems pretty conclusive. TWF rouge CAN do more damage than a fighter, but only if the AC is almost a full 10 lower than something a fighter can fight reliably. The 30 AC seems about standard on most lvl 16 baddies. So assuming we somehow have a rouge who gets his full attack against an enemy with a low AC and the rouge gets to use his sneak attack on every hit THEN AND ONLY THEN does a rouge do more damage than a fighter on average?

Wait, the color red can do more damage than a fighter? I just thought it went faster...

hint: "ROGUE"

rofl. whoa. I didn't even realize I was spelling it that way. thanks.

[Skjaldbakka]

1- Improved Invisibility
2- Greater Blink
3- Acid Flasks

Bottom Line- There are plenty of ways for a Rogue to trivialize an opponent's AC.

[Brit O]

Skjaldbakka wrote:

1- Improved Invisibility

2- Greater Blink
3- Acid Flasks

Bottom Line- There are plenty of ways for a Rogue to trivialize an opponent's AC.

1- 4th level spell

2- 6th level? or higher

I'd never thought of the 3rd. It does pose an interesting problem. I'm going to think about this at my next game.

Anyway

1- 2nd level spell See invisibility, blindsense
2- trueseeing, dispel magic, dimensional anchor

For every method there's a counter method. Its worth mentioning that the first two ways don't really trivialize AC all that much in most cases. They're both worth a +2 and denying the opponent his dex which is either a huge boon or a worthless one (Golem vs pixie example). It usually goes that dex bonus and armor bonus are mutually exclusive.

[Skjaldbakka]

Yes, but who is going to be getting the 4th level buff spells, the fighter, or the rogue? The answer is pretty clearly the rogue, which is a problem in my mind.

There is also the issue of brilliant energy weapons. Throw an energy damage enchantment on their, and your still hitting undead and golems with that (and can thus deal sneak attack damage). Although golems are pretty clearly one of the rare kinds of creatures that sneak attack doesn't work on.

Really, the rogue just needs one *really small* change. Put sneak attack back the way it was. Add rogue talents to let you sneak attack additional foes normally immune to sneak attack.

Then the rogue is pretty much perfect (aside from the L20 class feature that doesn't scale for epic level- but how often is that going to be an issue?).

[F33b]

Skjaldbakka wrote:

There is also the issue of brilliant energy weapons. Throw an energy damage enchantment on their, and your still hitting undead and golems with that (and can thus deal sneak attack damage). Although golems are pretty clearly one of the rare kinds of creatures that sneak attack doesn't work on.

ignoring the rest of your post for now, how is the quoted mechanic legal?

According to the SRD Brilliant Energy weapons:

srd wrote:

cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects.

and

srd wrote:

any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.)

How is the rogue get off sneak attack in this scenario, and how is the rogue "hitting undead and golems with that (and can thus deal sneak attack damage)"?

The weapon property explicitly does not work against undead and constructs, nor are opponents hit by a BE weapon automatically denied their dex bonus (and thus, are not flat footed.)

[YULDM]

... indeed, when we add all the magical stuff lying around, things get even worse and totally unpredictable, for or against the rogue.

I read (and participate) on other threads about the rogue and the fighter and damage and feats and think tank and talents...

Is it just me, or does it seem that the cause of many problems is with TWF?

[Sebastian]

F33b wrote:

Every time I see this thread bumped, I immediately recall the Thug variant presented in UA (and also part of the OGL content.)

Every time I see this thread (or any thread with the word rogue in the title) bumped, I throw up in my mouth a little and my ears bleed.

But I do like the thug variant. Good times.

[KaeYoss]

I found that even against low ACs, the fighter doesn't have to hide behind the rogue. He just uses power attack for a couple of points - so he'll still hit quite reliably, but does a lot more damage (due to power attack increasing damage 1:2 for two-handed weapons)

Acid flasks have to be carried around, and kept at hand, to be really effective (and, for the rogue, he absolutely needs improved invisibility or something similar to make it work).

As for buffs like invisibility or brilliant energy weapons - the fighter can use them, too. His chances to get/use them are about the same as the rogue's (in fact, he could dumb the money the rogue will have to put into his second weapon into that stuff instead).

The fighter will use it and put all the gain into power attack.

And always remember that many of those buffs can be countered: True seeing, invisibility purge or see invisible for invisibility, not wearing any armour (which is common for most monsters, including demons and the like) against brilliant energy, and all that.