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This ability needs 20 ranks of perform, so that the bard gets a flat +23 bonus on his check. Add 5 points of charisma bonus (which may not be that much for a level 20 character) and skill bonus (perform) for a total bonus of +31. And probably a masterwork instrument in case of musical performance, so the bonus becomes +33. Now, assuming a rolled 10 (which the bard can easily get by applying his jack of all trades class feature), his victim has to roll against a 43 to avoid death. A typical CR 20 opponent like a balor has a will save of +20, so by using less than 5% of his ressources, a level 20 bard has an excellent chance of singlehandingly defeating a CR 20 foe. I would advise against the use of a skill check, instead make it a flat DC based on bard level or performance ranks.
I agree that save DCs based on skill checks are generally a bad idea; too many things boost skill checks.
I think all the other ones based on skill checks for the bard is cool but this one is just to over the top
I think all the other ones based on skill checks for the bard is cool but this one is just to over the top
Note that the Good domain ability and the Destined bloodline ability add big boosts to skill checks, for starters (unless they've changed that in Alpha 3). So a level 10 bard with a sorcerer and cleric in the same party could easily get a +20 boost from those two sources alone.
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I think all the other ones based on skill checks for the bard is cool but this one is just to over the top
Yep. Unlimited uses per day... *shudder*. Compare it to the Ranger's 20th level ability (DC 20 + WIS modifier) and it is definitely broken. Having said that, I think I'm going to rule it being DC 20 + CHA modifier.
Please, Jason, fix this ability in Beta! :)
Director of Games
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I think all the other ones based on skill checks for the bard is cool but this one is just to over the topYep. Unlimited uses per day... *shudder*. Compare it to the Ranger's 20th level ability (DC 20 + WIS modifier) and it is definitely broken. Having said that, I think I'm going to rule it being DC 20 + CHA modifier.
Please, Jason, fix this ability in Beta! :)
Yeah.. this one is high on my fix list. It is too good as written.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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I think all the other ones based on skill checks for the bard is cool but this one is just to over the topYep. Unlimited uses per day... *shudder*. Compare it to the Ranger's 20th level ability (DC 20 + WIS modifier) and it is definitely broken. Having said that, I think I'm going to rule it being DC 20 + CHA modifier.
Please, Jason, fix this ability in Beta! :)
Yeah.. this one is high on my fix list. It is too good as written.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Too good as written!... this ability rocks if it were to be left as is! So i agree that a tweak or two may be needed to balance it out with the rest of the bardic level abilities. I look forward to said tweaks in the coming future!
Its about time for bards to actually be better than everyone else, right?
But seriously, DCs based on skillchecks are *always* a bad idea. Do you know what the record for a perform check is? I don't exactly offhand, but I know its somewhere in the +170 range at level 20. A DC 180 save is something epic monsters with 60 HD fail 95% of the time. Its simply too easy to pump skill checks.
Without even trying, or relying on any outside sources but skill focus, a bard is going to have a minimum DC of 40 with this ability (jack of all trades allows him to take 10 on these, which is another amazingly bad idea). And that assumes a 20 charisma at 20th level, which is laughably low compared to what it could be.
If you're going to have abilities like this at all (and the mass paralyzation one), the DC should be the standard: 10 + 1/2 level + charisma modifier.
To make it even *worse*, Save or Die spells got smacked with the nerf bat and converted to damage and at the same time that the bard and ranger were given typeless SoD effects that affect anything... including constructs, undead and anything else. Thats ridiculously inconsistent design.
Another nitpick- its annoying enough to have to waste skill points on perform so you can use your class features. Its downright painful to have to do it *twice* so you can use all your class features. The restriction on what type of perform checks can be used with which ability need to go. Thats pure flavor, not rules. Because all it means is that the bard is 4 skill class, not a 6 skill class.
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The bard's saves being based on skill check results was incredibly bad design in 3.5, and needs to go, never to darken our tables again.
Bards have always been described as 'dabblers', or 'jack-of-all-trades'. A bit of this and a bit of that. They should have a lot of low-powered abilities. But in actual play, they come out with abilities that totally overpower and make redundant the actual pure specialist casters (Illusionists and Enchanters).
Pure, full-time casters who have had to give up hit points, BAB, saves, armour and weapon proficiencies, and skill points, just to get a set of spells with save DCs half of what the dabbler enforces.
What is the justification? Compare the bard to any multi-classed Enchanter. OK, you'll say that multi-classed casters should be under-par. But isn't that what a bard actually is? Isn't that how they are described?
Note that, even with this huge advantage, people still don't enjoy playing bards that often. Why is that? Is it because a DM is forced to either, 1) concede the campaign at character creation time, or 2) fill the adventures with creatures immune to mental influence, just so the rest of the party have something to do?
Shouldn't this ability also be labeled as an Enchantment (compulsion) mind-affecting, possibly language-dependant ability like the other Bardic Performance abilities?
Also, skill checks result as saving throw DCs are a bad idea, because they become more and more impossible to beat at high levels. This is due to the fact that skills generally increase by one per level, while saves increase by one only every two or three levels.
Shouldn't this ability also be labeled as an Enchantment (compulsion) mind-affecting, possibly language-dependant ability like the other Bardic Performance abilities?
I get the impression that the idea behind leaving out those tags was to give bards something to make them useful against undead and constructs.
I still find it difficult to believe that a zombie or a golem could be made to "die from joy or sorrow".
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Slightly off-topic, but another problem that came up with bardic abilities and spells, was that there are a lot of spells out there which use sonic effects to inflict a disabling condition on an enemy (sickened, nauseated, slowed, etc).
How do these react with creatures who have sonic resistance (not immunity), such as a slaad? The way we had played it was that if a creature could resist all the hit point damage from an attack, they did not suffer any secondary effects, but there are so many attacks which only inflict conditions, with no hit point damage at all.
I find it hard to visualise a creature taking zero damage from Shout, but falling prone and helpless from 'disorienting harmonics' or other similar flavour text.