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Is there any support for moving the Bard's Jack of All Trades ability up to an earlier level, say a level where it will actually have an impact on Bard gameplay?
I think it should move to Bard 4 or Bard 7. It makes the Bard much more useful earlier in his carreer, but isn't overpowering. Also, this would allow the Bard to "stand-in" better in a party with a missing "core" class (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard).
-Skeld
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Is there any support for moving the Bard's Jack of All Trades ability up to an earlier level, say a level where it will actually have an impact on Bard gameplay?
I think it should move to Bard 4 or Bard 7. It makes the Bard much more useful earlier in his carreer, but isn't overpowering. Also, this would allow the Bard to "stand-in" better in a party with a missing "core" class (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard).
-Skeld
I think i would agree.
4 or 7 are too early, if you ask me. I'd say 10 at the earliest, and 13 could work, too.
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4 or 7 are too early, if you ask me. I'd say 10 at the earliest, and 13 could work, too.
agreed while it does look like a fairly balanced ability for low levels gaining every skill skill as a class skill and being able to take 10 on every skill even when you normally can't would lead to some very annoyed rogues.
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I've reread the feat and realize that the Jack of All Trades class ability doesn't have much in common with the 3.x Jack of All Trades feat. I think it now does too much.
Why not amp the power down and offer it at a lower level where it makes sense and can make a difference for the Bard? In it's original incarnation under 3.x, it allowed a character of level 8 or higher to use any skill as if they had 1/2 rank in that skill. I think adding everything to the class skill list doesn't make much sense (it doesn't work for Disable Device for example). The blanket "take 10" is problematic also.
IMHO, this should exist at a lower level and allow the Bard the ability to perform an Aid Other roll to help out any other party members with skill checks, but still allow a chance for failure if the Bard doesn't have ranks in that skill.
Otherwise, I think this ability is at such a high level as to make it useless.
-Skeld
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I think that one of the points behind it was to make this one of the capstone abilities of the bards class(yes, I know it comes at 19 rather then 20, but you get the death song at 20). One of those things to make it more attractive to play bard all the way through because you get a really useful ability right at the end there.
You'll notice that this tactic was taken and used by a lot of the base classes in the splat books(the knights 20th level ability makes them damn near immortal as long as they have challenges left to burn) and I think that jason and the prpg team have taken that same approach in their core classes here.
It is a pretty neat device really, allowing the players who play all the way through to gain a bonus for that, just like people gain bonuses for dipping in one class or another. It ends up making that a tougher decision. Now if you want you can drop a few levels of rogue still and pick up evasion and skill points and sneak attack, but it means that unless you go epic you aren't going to be netting a few of the best abilities of the bard.
-Tarlane
I was thinking 10th or 11th for the ability to do everything as if it was trained, 15th for the everything is a class skill, and 19th for the take 10.
I was just about to bring something like that up myself, so instead I second yours.
But the numbers are off a bit. I say use 10, 13, 16 or 19 for these abilities, since the bard doesn't get any abilities at those levels (well, except new spell levels, which should not be discounted).
Since we have one "empty" level left over, there could be an additional instance of jack of all trades.
agreed while it does look like a fairly balanced ability for low levels gaining every skill skill as a class skill and being able to take 10 on every skill even when you normally can't would lead to some very annoyed rogues.
The "every skill is a class skill" ability is fairly harmless since the only difference between a class skill and a non-class skill is a +3 bonus.
I agree that the "take 10 on any skill" should remain at a high level, of course.