RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8
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Some general comments. For the past 3 months I've been running the RotRL adventure path for a group of 4-7 players (dependent on the week).
A few things that I noticed along the way:
Treasure given out during the module never would bring the PC's up to their standard character wealth by level, even for a 4 person party.
Most combats were against low level hordes of mooks which were incredibly easy. (Attack of goblins on Sandpoint, ghouls in the corn fields).
But then whenever the bad guys had ANY opportunity to prepare or forewarning, they would kick the crud out of the PCs (the Burnt Offerings Throne Room, etc).
Major combats were always incredibly overpowered compared to character wealth/level (Quasit, Advanced Elite Greater Bargest, Xanesha, Aldern [ghast], Elite Lifespark Flesh Golem).
I believe to the point of the flesh golem, only 1 or two adamantine weapons had been given in the modules, reducing the overall effectiveness of the party against it.
To combat these issues I made too many adjustments.
I dramatically increased treasure in regards to items (especially useful ones) as well as gold. After the PCs fought the barghest, those who fought had their weapons become +3 magic weapons.
The hordes got increased. If I recall I jumped the number of goblins attacking Sandpoint temple to some 25 vesus the six-eight written (the PCs one-shot killed all of them).
Planned bad guy combats: I had one PC who regularly was near death because he was the main fighter and became the brunt of many attacks.
Quasit, PCs couldn't bypass her DR, also she just kept hanging around the ceiling casting spells and summoning; like she's going to go in melee ["pshah and monkeys might fly out of my butt]. Barghest insane challenge that I had to play dumb for as I even had 2 PCs on the floor for most of the combat 1 I should have eaten. The golem 1 shot killed the monk with a critical and average damage 72 points, also nearly took out the rest before they fled. Xanesha was run exactly as the book said, major image, petrify the rogue (Fort save roll a 10 total) plunge into melee and also push the statue off. Total TPK.
The thing that bugged me most was that the 6th level PCs were supposed to take her down AFTER fighting the flesh golem and dodging falling bells. How did this make any sense or be fair?
(As an aside, all the players HATED the names used. And I was given crap for names...)
What were your party's classes? What were your players' strengths and weaknesses?
The quasit generally gets beat through innovative tactics, especially grapple and drown.
The Xanesha fight is a TPK unless the party takes some time to plan a good attack: spamming fly or spider climb is the way to go here. But, yes, there's a whole thread on how problematic that fight is.
The barghest is crimped by having to squeeze and being unable to maneuver. Also, parties don't have to find him or stay to fight him. Hit and run tactics work best.
I let them create scrolls for free, violated Sandpoint GP purchase, added in all sorts of protection items weapons useful to PCs.
Also names like: Ironbriar, Aldern, Ameiko, Norgorber, Xanesha, Shaelu. Ugh
I am not so keen on Ironbriar but whats wrong with the other names?
With regards to the rest of it.
Personally i know and accept that the AP is for the most part very dangerous and has little in the way temporal reward for the characters.
To help with this, i will be running on average three times the encounters per level, each rewarding the characters with a smattering of gold and equipment. This will, i hope mean that the characters will gain enough money to buy level approprate equipment without destroying suspension of disbeleif by having every goblin running around with d4 GP and every critter dropping level appropreate loot.
The side effect of this is that i will be able to stretch out low and midlevel play, really getting the most out of the players raise to power.
I hope my PC's will also be using there craft and professional skill during down time between early adventures. Although much of this is likely to be eaten by living expense.
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The hordes got increased. If I recall I jumped the number of goblins attacking Sandpoint temple to some 25 vesus the six-eight written (the PCs one-shot killed all of them).
My PCs nearly died against the as-written assault (2 on negative hit points).
So it depends upon the group - what's your party like?
Mine was mostly inexperienced players or old hands who aren't into optimising - but I let them have fantastic stats (paladin, bard, ranger, sorcerer, cleric).
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I agree with some of the OPs thoughts. Lots of mooks made it really easy for my party, even after the numbers were increased by me. But, I think thats fine, there should be some easy fights for the PCs. Treasure could be a bit low, especially if your party doesn't kill Xanesha and get her mask, tunic, spear.
But, as far as the other ideas, I think your group as a whole needs to work better together. My group found Ironbriar's journal and read up on Xanesha, performed knowledge checks on Lamia Matriarchs and went to the School of the Seers in Magnimar to find out more. They knew she'd be tough and prepared for it. It was still close, but close in a good, dramatic way. Aldern....they kicked his butt hard. Even with added ghouls and another level in Rogue added to him. If your group doesn't run well as a group, either tacticly or preemptively, you may need to level them up another level each and run it like that for a while, give them more gold, etc. I have found, in my very limited experience, that it is always easier to make an encounter harder than scale it back.
Just my thoughts. Good Luck.
Cheers!
From a player perspective, we planned as much as possible. Also my party focuses on defense and not as much on offense. We ran from Malfresh when we first encountered him only to come back at 6th level and stomp him into the ground.
When it came to the Lam, we had already found out some info about the golem, so we were well prepared for it and that battle wasn't too hard, but fought her without too much info.
It was a tough battle, but she eventually fled in the face of our might.
She was able to prepare pretty well, but some well designed spells from us and the fact that we have good defenses make it hard to hit us routinely. We wore her down after about 5 rounds and it was flee of be defeated!
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8
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They found the journal, but no one could read it. Also I had to prod them into action and release the messenger birds, otherwise they would have hung around the now silent sawmill until the authorities arrived. So yes they did charge on into the clock tower, fully rested but completely unprepared as I think they were more meant to be. Yeah they beat Aldern, but after he took out his focused character.
But, as far as the other ideas, I think your group as a whole needs to work better together. My group found Ironbriar's journal and read up on Xanesha, performed knowledge checks on Lamia Matriarchs and went to the School of the Seers in Magnimar to find out more. They knew she'd be tough and prepared for it. It was still close, but close in a good, dramatic way. Aldern....they kicked his butt hard.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8
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The Party was:
Human 6th Lvl Monk (Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise + Imp Trip)
Elf 2nd Lvl Ranger/4th Lvl Rogue (2WF, headed for Shadowdancer next level)
Elf Sorc 4th (mostly Evocation spells, all which allow SR)
Human 6th Cleric (Good/Healing)
Human 4th Fighter (Greatsword)
Elf Rogue 4th/Ftr 2nd (ranged)
1/2 Orc Barbarian 5th/Ranger 1 (Spears Melee/Ranged)
They got stomped.
My group of 5 characters have been doing fine so far. One casualty at Thistletop when a character fell of the bridge (awkward).
I agree, the average encounter is rather easy, and sometimes the monster's feel rather suicidal to even try (one ghoul vs. 5 heroes?). However, if you were running the attack on Sandpoint with 7 PCs then it isn't unusual to have 25 goblins. The adventure has 13 goblins +1 goblin dog, and is designed for 4 characters. If you almost double the number of players, you could almost double the number of enemies.
The first real challenge for my group was the quasit queen. She is supposed to be hard to kill - but she isn't very deadly. My group loved hating that little thing, and they ended up using the grab and drown tactic. Very memorable.
The throne room turned out to be very easy, because the group was sneaky and managed to surprise them. The yeth hounds however were tough and so was Nualia - but it wasn't unfair. They didn't find Malfeshnekor - and I guess I should be glad they didn't.
I think there is too much XP for the haunts. There is usually only one character who has to make a save, and if he makes the save there is usually no damage or anything. And if he fails the save the other PCs can sometimes save him. Still, the whole party is awarded CR3-5 XP. I have seen much more dangerous CR 4 traps. The group was very [pleasantly] surprised when I handed out the XP after the first session in Misgivings.
We haven't run the Aldern encounter yet, but I don't expect it to be too hard. In fact, I was thinking about boosting him up a little bit (spellstitched). However, I believe the Xanesha encounter is potentially lethal.
There isn't much treasure, so far, but I personally don't think that 5th-6th level characters should have much permanent treasure. I definitely don't think they should have +3 weapons at 3rd level, no matter what!
As regards the names - they don't bother us at all.
A quick browse of the boards should satisfy one that Xanesha is significantly overpowered. There have been a lot of solutions posted though my favourite is replacing her with her weaker sister in Pathfinder #3.
Otherwise you face a problem where Xenesha is so powerful that if your PCs are powerful enough to beat her then their so powerful that they won't ever be challenged in the AP again.
A quick browse of the boards should satisfy one that Xanesha is significantly overpowered. There have been a lot of solutions posted though my favourite is replacing her with her weaker sister in Pathfinder #3.
Otherwise you face a problem where Xenesha is so powerful that if your PCs are powerful enough to beat her then their so powerful that they won't ever be challenged in the AP again.
Has to be said, i as a player wouldn't try to fight Xenesha. I'd collapse the tower on her. Seriously, its about to fall at any momment anyway. A couple of well placed spells and scratch one Lamia.
Not every situation has to be solved by walking up and hitting it with a lump of iron. Novel solutions to challanging situations.
Our group of only 4 characters has only had a real issue with fighting Mal at too low of a level and Xenesha was tough, but she ended up running from us rather than being defeated.
Party was
Druid 6
Fighter 5/Templar 1
Sorcerer 6
Cleric 6
I play a Druid who summons animals and then buffs his Animal Companion, so for every battle we pretty much have two extra fighters about the fighting power of a cleric of 6th level. We let the summoned creatures be an initial punching bag while we get haste up and then waylay anything that gets in our way. As I mentioned the average AC for our 6th level group is 24 so we don't get hit every time in combat. If any combat starts at any type of distance I just drop an enhanced Dire Wolf on it and wolfie usually tear it a new one while we move up and finish it off.
So far we have cake walked through Hook Mountain...
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Our group of only 4 characters has only had a real issue with fighting Mal at too low of a level and Xenesha was tough, but she ended up running from us rather than being defeated.
Party was
Druid 6
Fighter 5/Templar 1
Sorcerer 6
Cleric 6I play a Druid who summons animals and then buffs his Animal Companion, so for every battle we pretty much have two extra fighters about the fighting power of a cleric of 6th level. We let the summoned creatures be an initial punching bag while we get haste up and then waylay anything that gets in our way. As I mentioned the average AC for our 6th level group is 24 so we don't get hit every time in combat. If any combat starts at any type of distance I just drop an enhanced Dire Wolf on it and wolfie usually tear it a new one while we move up and finish it off.
So far we have cake walked through Hook Mountain...
funny enough, this is our usual tactic.
Bard 5/ Cleric 1
Druid 5/ Beastmaster 1 (me)
Paladin 6
Rogue 6
Ardent 3/Cleric 3.
Paladin and Druid both have Dire Wolves (Druid's is 8hd and bites quite nicely), bard puts Inspire Courage for +3/+4 to everyone, rogue sneaks around impossible to see and sneak attacks everything.
Paladin and Cleric/Ardent play whack a mole most of the time.
We lost the Druid's Direwolf to a crit from the Fleshgolem, almost lost the bard to the bell-trap and falling damage, and were low on attack resources by the time we encountered her.
After many rounds of almost dying, missing, and being sad, we got Xanesha to about 5 hp, whereupon she fled. Some of that damage came from the druid hitting her with Magic Stone bullets (rolled a 20, 19, 18 to hit on the 3 shots, doing some significant damage for a little druid)
Tough, but not impossible, and if we had dispel magic available (cleric/ardent took energy burst instead...stupid exploding ardent) she woulda been a LOT easier to take down.
-the hamster
Has to be said, i as a player wouldn't try to fight Xenesha. I'd collapse the tower on her. Seriously, its about to fall at any momment anyway. A couple of well placed spells and scratch one Lamia.Not every situation has to be solved by walking up and hitting it with a lump of iron. Novel solutions to challanging situations.
Can't she fly?
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We have a rather greedy wizard in our party who was very close to bringing down the tower, considering a few fireballs into its structure at different points and it was only through the parties intervention that he didn't.
I kept imagining him stopping in at one of the taverns in the shadow and placing a wager on when the tower was going to fall(the day the party was headed there of course) as a just in case bet. Surprised he didn't.
-Tarlane