This is meant to be a comparable playtest to this thread. It uses the same general assumptions.
The Build, Level 1:
!Xou'aktl, female Halfling Necromancer:
Forbidden Schools: Evocation, Divination
Str 6
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 17
Wis 10
Cha 12
Racial: Small, Slow, Keen Senses (Sound), Sure-Footed, Halfling Luck, Fearless, Weap Fam (Sling)
Skills: Spellcraft, Kno(Planes), Kno(Religion), Kno(Arcane), Kno(Dungeoneering)
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Improved Initiative
Class Abilities: Necromancer, Grave Touch, Arcane Bond (Wicked Cool Hat), Spells, Spellbook
Equipment: Spellbook, Robe, Wicked Cool Hat (Arcane Bond), Staff, Crossbow, 20 quarrels, 20 silver quarrels, 20 cold-iron quarrels, 50' rope, 3 torches, flint and steel, 2 smokesticks
Spellbook:
0th: Resistance, Acid Splash, Daze, Read Magic, Ghost Sounds, Disrupt Undead, Touch of Fatigue, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation
1st: Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep, Protection from Evil, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor, Feather Fall
Spells Memorized (3/2): DC 13 + spell level
Cantrips: Acid Splash, Touch of Fatigue, Disrupt Undead
1st: Sleep x2
Senses:
Perception +0
Initiative +7
Defenses:
HP: 6
AC: 14
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +3
Edit: forgot size mod to AC
EL 1 Challenges
A locked and trapped door
A 20' deep pit trap
A pair of Orcs
Three Celestial Dogs
An Elf Wizard 1
A Lemure
A Ghoul
A pair of human zombies
A pair of stirges
A spider swarm
A Locked and Trapped Door
The wizard sits there and burns the door with acid splash repeatedly. As acid ignores hardness, he eventually succeeds in getting through... (Doors with obvious latches, locks, hinges, or other such things can simply have those splashed)
Even 'fight'. It takes awhile, although the wizard doesn't make notably much noise in the process.
I'm noticing the trap doesn't much matter unless the character plans on actually unlocking the door...
A 20' pit trap
The wizard uses her hat to cast Feather Fall, thus taking no damage.
Certain Win.
A Pair of Orcs
I feel pain coming on. !Xou'aktl is walking around in the dark either in a dungeon or outside, which means she's got a torch out, and the orcs totally surprise her. With an average of 6.5 damage, one javelin hit could be curtains. Fortunately, they only hit 40% of the time, for an expected (2*.45*6.5) 5.85 damage, which will kill her a little less than half the time... during the surprise round. Fortunately, if she does survive long enough to make an initiative roll she has a 7 pt advantage on initiative, meaning she goes first most of the time. She hits them with a sleep spell, which has a DC of 14 against their -2 will save. They make it 25% of the time, but if either does she probably dies.
This is looking like a pretty even match, running some test runs.
Battle 1:
Both orcs miss on the javelin throws, which is honestly pretty impressive. Round 1 starts up, and !Xou'Aktl wins initiative, dropping a sleep on them after moving towards them to get them in visual range. They both blow their save and !Xou'aktl can coup-de-grace them at her leisure.
Battle 2+3:
One orc hits for 8-9 damage, killing !Xou'aktl.
Looking reasonably even with a little bias towards probable loss.
Three Celestial Dogs
Surprise is unlikely for either side, which means initiative is important, and !Xou'aktl has a 4 point advantage. They have will +1, so they pass a will save 40% of the time, meaning one sleep spell is probably insufficient. This would look pretty even if it wasn't for the fact that they have SR 6, which makes it unlikely !Xou'aktl will get off a sleep spell targetting multiple of them. But if she can sleep 2 of them in round 1, she has a chance.
Probable Loss
Elf Wizard 1
Its almost a mirror match up, except the halfling has better saves! However, the elf is immune to sleep, but likely has 1 fewer hp. !Xou'aktl fails a save vs. sleep 50% of the time, and a crossbow shot isn't nearly that good.
Probable Loss, but only because the example is an elf. (Sleep has a ridiculously long range, and being immune to it while being capable of casting it at these levels is brutal in a mage vs. mage matchup).
A Lemure
Its mindless (no sleep), resistant to acid, but its as slow as we are, and we have expeditious retreat via hat. Its crossbow run+gun time. Its also got only a +0 initiative, so !Xou'aktl probably goes first. (And even if it gets to attack, +2 attack for 1d4 damage? Whatever...)
Certain win.
A Ghoul
Wizards really don't have good options against undead at 1st level, its actually kind of annoying. It also has stealth capabilities. If it doesn't surprise !Xou'aktl, we use the hat for expeditious retreat and run+gun it to death with the crossbow. If it surprises her, she dies a reasonable fraction of the time (paralyzed or just outright takes enough damage if it hits - 45% of the time).
Even fight.
A pair of Human Zombies
Zombies are slow, which means hat for expeditious retreat and Disrupt Undead for the run+gun (Finally something that can't charge her if she's at 25' and then moves away).
Certain Win.
Pair of Stirges
Ambush monsters, whee. Surprised, drained of some con in the surprise round. If she beats them both at initiative she can try to sleep them, but that doesn't sound terribly productive as she'll catch herself too. They fly off after sating themselves.
Certain Loss. Not dead, but not happy (-8 con) and no foes even killed unless she gets lucky clubbing one with a staff.
Spider Swarm
The real problem is it almost certainly ambushes her, which inflicts 1d6 damage and forces a fort save. If she doesn't die outright, she likely wins initiative, hats for exp retreat, and run+guns it to death with acid splash. Losing 1d3 strength doesn't especially bother her, so the save isn't immediately scary.
Probable win. 1d6 damage only kills her 1 in 6 times, and more often than not she gets the initiative. Once the run and gun starts she's got it made.
Review:
Certain Win 3
Probable Win 1
Even 3
Probable Loss 2
Certain Loss 1
Which is a 5.75 out of 10, right in the sweet spot of balance. Given that some of those are possibly a little generous, I'd actually call it a 5/10.
Edit: Adjusted some numbers and re-evaluated the ghoul fight.
A couple of things:
While acid deals full damage, unlike fire/cold/electricity to objects, it is still subject to hardness. The wording in the DMG is a little vague, but this was clarified in a errata (I'm at work otherwise I'd link to it). The door's still standing.
Secondly, sleep has a casting time of 1 round, not 1 standard action. so in the orc and celestial dog scenarios the wizard's even more boned, which probably takes the ratio down to about 4.5/10 (which is most player's gut feel that wizards are 'underpowered' at 1st level)
Dementrius wrote: A couple of things:
While acid deals full damage, unlike fire/cold/electricity to objects, it is still subject to hardness. The wording in the DMG is a little vague, but this was clarified in a errata (I'm at work otherwise I'd link to it). The door's still standing.
Secondly, sleep has a casting time of 1 round, not 1 standard action. so in the orc and celestial dog scenarios the wizard's even more boned, which probably takes the ratio down to about 4.5/10 (which is most player's gut feel that wizards are 'underpowered' at 1st level)
Doesn't actually effect the dog scenario at all. The problem in the orc scenario is sight because they have darkvision and she doesn't, so you're right, that is a problem. Of course, Colorspray doesn't have enough range to get the orcs, which is why I went with sleep. That's one of the 'evens' I was most worried about not being quite accurate, honestly, so I think i've already accounted for most of that going down a notch or two.
My recollection was hardness is like DR. Acid really should go through hardness. But I finally found the rules in the SRD and you're right, hardness applies whenever an object takes damage. Meh, so a locked door defeats a level 1 wizard... that's really fine.
Squirrelloid wrote:
A 20' pit trap
The wizard uses her hat to cast Feather Fall, thus taking no damage.
Certain Win.
It's not a win until you tell me how the wizard gets OUT of the pit.
Wouldnt the wizard have one more hp d6 max plus 1 for his con so 7 HP instead of 6
Joey Virtue wrote: Wouldnt the wizard have one more hp d6 max plus 1 for his con so 7 HP instead of 6 Halflings have Wizard as a favored class, so that's +1 hp. Con for +1, and the hp in pathfinder have a number of options to start, my group's preferred being 3x max at level 1.
So, the wizard here should have between 8 and 20hp to start.
Second, I noticed that the wizard never attempted a perception check to avoid surprise. Halfling's have keen sense (sound)... so unless the Orc's had a really good stealth check, the wizard might have been able to avoid the surprise round.
I think it was the sturges fight that the OP said they couldn't use sleep because they were too close. Sleep has a 10' burst from any point 100' away or more. I think you could easily locate a sleep burst to hit things next to you without hitting yourself. That, and Color spray would work well in that case.
My problem is that this wizard (and please take no offense at this because it isn't meant to be an offensive comment) is optimized and run by a player who runs wizards and therefore has optimized tactics, but the barbarian was just built on the fly.
I have as a DM never seen a player choose evocation as a forbidden school in my 5 years and unless I'm mistaken and they changed it in PF you can't choose divination as a forbidden school. I know you think it is a dumb choice but none of the players I've played with have ever run a character the way you do. You talk again and again about a barbarian being playable out of the box with a common archtype and then you ignore any archtype and choose a well optimized wizard to run through this and claim that the wizard hits the sweet spot of balance.
Run the same encounters with magic missle as the first level spell, or enchant person instead of sleep, or true strike, or mage armour. does the wizard make the 50% in these instances?
and really, a necromancer chose sleep to memorize as his first level spell and imp initiative as his first level feat? not a necromancy spell and spell focus, I don't really see how that can be called an archtypal character like the barb with the big axe, no offense, but you're running the guisarme wielding armour spike equivalent of a wizard. And you know I'm not just riding your ass cause I disputed the guy who ran the combats in the thread opened by that guy to be obnoxious.
I would also like to know why the Necromancer is picking Sleep over any of his normal necromantic spells. What's the point of specializing if you are still going to pick a majority of another schools spells? You should have just gone generalist. Also, sleeps casting time is a round so most of these encounters would be harder than you list them as.
fliprushman wrote: I would also like to know why the Necromancer is picking Sleep over any of his normal necromantic spells. What's the point of specializing if you are still going to pick a majority of another schools spells? You should have just gone generalist. Also, sleeps casting time is a round so most of these encounters would be harder than you list them as. I think it's fairly safe to say that no two players are going to pick the same spells or feats in building a wizard.
Although, the idea of having an area effect spell prepared makes sense and, if you look at the necromancy school, there are no area effect level 1 spells in the SRD.
Personally, I would have had Mage Armor prepared, and likely gone with color spray. The necromancer doesn't really work well with a party at higher levels (oh, look, the cleric can't heal you!).
I imagine that if the wizard had something other than sleep prepared, the fight against the elf wizard might have gone differently. (A good use of cause fear, perhaps?)
This is what it is... 1 person's attempt to play test a wizard in various circumstances. If others think it was not a typical demonstration, I don't see anything wrong with putting out other builds and testing those under similar conditions. Perhaps try an abjurer against those same trials. Or a generalist?
fliprushman wrote: What's the point of specializing if you are still going to pick a majority of another schools spells? For the kewl powerz that'll help out in the levels 4 and 7 tests.
Joey Virtue wrote: Wouldnt the wizard have one more hp d6 max plus 1 for his con so 7 HP instead of 6 Whoops, she should have 8 hp. I forgot they changed the HD. It actually doesn't matter notably much.
cappadocious wrote: It's not a win until you tell me how the wizard gets OUT of the pit. Technically, feather fall only effects downward momentum, so since she was walking forward to fall into the pit trap she has forward momentum that doesn't change and actually drifts across and catches the far side at about her waist.
Even if she ends up in the pit, she spends some time re-prepping for Mage Hand and Prestidigitation in her Cantrip slots, and uses them to tie her rope around something. Or she can try climbing out (+0 Climb check). A 20' deep pit is not that hard to get out of, and she can take 20.
Doug Bragg 172 wrote: Second, I noticed that the wizard never attempted a perception check to avoid surprise. Halfling's have keen sense (sound)... so unless the Orc's had a really good stealth check, the wizard might have been able to avoid the surprise round.
I think it was the sturges fight that the OP said they couldn't use sleep because they were too close. Sleep has a 10' burst from any point 100' away or more. I think you could easily locate a sleep burst to hit things next to you without hitting yourself. That, and Color spray would work well in that case.
The perception check to find something by sound are really hard. Especially because they know you're there (your torch stands out from up to 100s of feet away), and so know to be sneaky. We're seriously talking about impossible DCs here using the rules presented for listening. And just because she hears something doesn't mean she knows how close it is (and therefor can't avoid a surprise round). I mean, otherwise you could just declare you're always moving as if in combat, and thus can never be surprised. And pinpointing a creature by sound is +20. I'd think you'd have to beat the DC by 10 for 'extra information' just to know that yes, that sound was <70' away from you. Regardless, she can't plausibly hear them until she can see them.
The problem with Stirges is they aren't next to you after they attack, they're in your square. You can't target them with an AoE spell without hitting yourself. Similarly, colorspray fails as by RAW it can never effect your square.
(Note, the problem with colorspray is encounter distances are typically on the order of 60-100' by RAW, and colorspray has a 15' range. You'd need a 35' move speed to make colorspray an effective solo tactic. Sleep at least has long range.)
LastKnightLeft wrote: My problem is that this wizard (and please take no offense at this because it isn't meant to be an offensive comment) is optimized and run by a player who runs wizards and therefore has optimized tactics, but the barbarian was just built on the fly. I didn't actually spend much longer building this wizard. Actually, i think the actual build took me 10 minutes. (I spent more time reading the specialist rules just so I was familiar with 3.P changes).
LastKnightLeft wrote: I have as a DM never seen a player choose evocation as a forbidden school in my 5 years and unless I'm mistaken and they changed it in PF you can't choose divination as a forbidden school. I know you think it is a dumb choice but none of the players I've played with have ever run a character the way you do. You talk again and again about a barbarian being playable out of the box with a common archtype and then you ignore any archtype and choose a well optimized wizard to run through this and claim that the wizard hits the sweet spot of balance. I haven't seen a wizard focus in damage dealing since I was 15 unless they were brand new to the game and knew nothing about playing a wizard. And that was 13 years ago. I've been DMing for 16 years across many different play groups. In my experience, blast mages are the province of younger kids who like the flash or new players who think dealing damage with spells is cool. As the wizard should only be expected to require more system mastery than most other classes (because it is seriously the most complicated class to play proficiently), builds based on some system mastery have their place here. Whereas the barbarian should be able to be picked up by a 1st time player, the wizard is a veteran's choice, and nothing that involves Vancian spellcasting with limited spells known can possibly be otherwise.
The 3.P rules put no limits on which schools you can choose to ban. Banning divination actually hurts (no detect magic now, and it'll really hurt at later levels), its always been one of my favorite schools. But I wanted to keep access to most of the combat spells I actually see people use in games, which meant divination had to go because its generally not combat focused. So yeah, this wizard's downtime is actually going to suck a lot compared to normal wizards.
And frankly, the 'unspecialized' wizard is considered better in 3.P (and I can't really disagree), so specializing is taking a hit.
LastKnightLeft wrote: Run the same encounters with magic missle as the first level spell, or enchant person instead of sleep, or true strike, or mage armour. does the wizard make the 50% in these instances? Mage Armor is useless at 1st level - you'll see me use it later. Magic Missile is a whole 1d4+1 damage at this level. Come now, I'm better off with my crossbow. True strike is a gish spell, it has no place on a mage, at least not pre-quicken. What the hell is Enchant Person anyway? I mean, i could take Charm Person - I might do even better, and have some friends follow me around. Charm person is a common first level spell choice that basically gives you powerful cohorts. I avoided that cheese. You'll also see me not take advantage of Planar Binding when it comes around to totally break the game (because it can) or any of the other truly obscene magic tricks like Minor Creation for buckets of Black Lotus Poison. Or bags full of explosive runes as satchel charges. I mean, you can do lots of obscene things in the rules with wizards, I'm going to specifically avoid all that. Someone will probably still call cheese at some point, but it will be rather mild and ultimately tasty cheese, and that's ok.
LastKnightLeft wrote: and really, a necromancer chose sleep to memorize as his first level spell and imp initiative as his first level feat? not a necromancy spell and spell focus, I don't really see how that can be called an archtypal character like the barb with the big axe, no offense, but you're running the guisarme wielding armour spike equivalent of a wizard. And you know I'm not just riding your ass cause I disputed the guy who ran the combats in the thread opened by that guy to be obnoxious. There are no useful archetypal spells available to necromancers at first level. I'm sorry, that's just the way it is. The only archetypal spell is Cause Fear, which I have never seen used by anyone at any point. Back when Necromancers got a bonus spell/spell level it was always taken up by Ray of Enfeeblement at 1st level, which is a plausible debuffer (although not very good at 1st level), but only because they had to fill that slot with a necromancy spell.
And all wizards take improved initiative at first level. Not doing so is terminally stupid. A wizard lives or dies by winning initiative, because if he doesn't he will die a reasonable fraction of the time. Spell focus is an awful feat (and Spell Focus Necromancy? Yuck. There's like 3 spells with save DCs in core for Necromancy. Never seen it used as anything other than a PrC Prereq feat, and never at 1st level).
If I wanted to run the Reach THF/spikes equivalent I'd have taken an Enchanter (ban evoc and necro) w/ imp init, charm person, sleep, and dumped skill points into Diplomacy and Bluff and made every humanoid I ran across my happy follower to be my meatshields. And with Enchantment, spell focus might actually be worthwhile - but not at 1st level.
"fliprushman wrote: would also like to know why the Necromancer is picking Sleep over any of his normal necromantic spells. What's the point of specializing if you are still going to pick a majority of another schools spells? You should have just gone generalist. Also, sleeps casting time is a round so most of these encounters would be harder than you list them as. First, 'normal necromantic spells' at first level are awful, as anyone with half a brain can quickly determine. Thank you, no. Especially as only one of them is at all archetypal and never gets used. I'll be choosing some useful necromancy spells later (although the specialization benefits actually give me quite a few 'free' necromancy spells, which free up my spell slots for other things - seriously, 3.P specialists seemed to be designed to *not* memorize spells of their school).
Second, the generalist is considered to be better, so i've actually taken a power hit.
Third, combats sleep mattered in: 2
Combats sleep mattered in and i had to move: 1 (the orcs)
So yes, i've already conceeded that makes the orcs more problematic. I mean, unless i just try blindcasting it in the direction of the orcs (because !Xou'aktl totally knows they have 60' darkvision, so she has a reasonable guess as to where to drop it, as she can cover most of the area beyond where she can see but where they could still see her in the proper direction - 10' burst does that). But yes, that makes the orc encounter a probable loss at best, pushing it towards certain loss. Noted in comments above.
She doesn't need to move against the Celestial Dogs. At all. (And with encounter distance up around 100'+, they can't get to her first round).
"Doug Brag 172 wrote:
I think it's fairly safe to say that no two players are going to pick the same spells or feats in building a wizard.
Although, the idea of having an area effect spell prepared makes sense and, if you look at the necromancy school, there are no area effect level 1 spells in the SRD.
Personally, I would have had Mage Armor prepared, and likely gone with color spray. The necromancer doesn't really work well with a party at higher levels (oh, look, the cleric can't heal you!).
I imagine that if the wizard had something other than sleep prepared, the fight against the elf wizard might have gone differently. (A good use of cause fear, perhaps?)
This is what it is... 1 person's attempt to play test a wizard in various circumstances. If others think it was not a typical demonstration, I don't see anything wrong with putting out other builds and testing those under similar conditions. Perhaps try an abjurer against those same trials. Or a generalist?
People are welcome to propose builds for me to run or run them on their own.
As to specific spell choice - the 100'+10'/level range for sleep was the clincher. I seriously considered Colorspray, but its 15' range is really brutally short. I do like the spell, but for dungeon exploration where I know there will be doors and corners. In a scenario like this, i'm rolling for encounter distance (or assuming the average if the combat can be generalized), which means I can't count on useful terrain like that to mean i start within 35' - in fact, that's a really short distance given random encounter distance. If you can count on that kind of distance (or do things to make it happen) colorspray becomes a vastly superior choice.
Mage Armor is better past level 1, and doesn't really come into its own until ~level 4. It wants to be a pre-cast spell, not something you waste an action on. That said, if i thought it would really have helped, I could have hatted for it - she does know it.
Cappadocious wrote: For the kewl powerz that'll help out in the levels 4 and 7 tests. You make it sound so sinister and power gaming. The cool iconic powers for arcane necromancers are energy draining and life force manipulation powers (magic jar, enervation, false life, etc...), which don't really start appearing until later in the progression. Animating Dead is also a pretty standard schtick, and I'll do some, but its not what Arcane Necromancy is really about.
Look, I'm trying not to do angry posts here, but you can't really say that your building a wizard in 15 minutes qualifies because as you said in the other thread, you build wizards all the time.
Also, you are getting quite insulting, I have no desire to debate with you if you are going to make statements that basically call my close friends half-brained beginners, especially since some of them are probably older, and definitely (by your statement of having played for 15 years) more experienced gamers than you, I'm not, I'll admit I'm not, but no offense, you play D&D in a way that most of the players I play with would shake their heads at. And honestly if you can't tone back the insults I'm not going to try and talk rationally with you.
Squirrelloid wrote:
cappadocious wrote: It's not a win until you tell me how the wizard gets OUT of the pit. Technically, feather fall only effects downward momentum, so since she was walking forward to fall into the pit trap she has forward momentum that doesn't change and actually drifts across and catches the far side at about her waist.
Even if she ends up in the pit, she spends some time re-prepping for Mage Hand and Prestidigitation in her Cantrip slots, and uses them to tie her rope around something. Or she can try climbing out (+0 Climb check). A 20' deep pit is not that hard to get out of, and she can take 20.
Feather fall instantly changes the rate at which the targets fall to a mere 60 feet per round (equivalent to the end of a fall from a few feet), and the subjects take no damage upon landing while the spell is in effect.
60 > 20 feet. Heck, let's assume the pit is 10' wide; so only half of the halfling's 20 feet movement. Let's halve the distance she falls in a round then - 30 feet > 20 feet. Still ends up at the bottom.
50 feet of SRD rope weighs 10 pounds. Which is more than Mage Hand can lift; let's be very generous and say it can lift the 30 feet or so needed to get out. NOW we have to assume there's something you can tie the rope to within <10 feet of the top, since our little first level mage can't manipulate the rope more than 30 feet away.
As for a Climb check? Good luck with that -2 Strength modifier. Climbing a basic pit trap worthy of the name is a 25 DC. If you're smart and corner climb, it's a 20. The best she can get taking 20 is a 18.
Seriously, man, a 1st level solo mage with Strength Six is going to die in a 20 foot pit trap unless the GM is very generous.
You can't take 20 to climb out of the pit. Its height is greater than 10', thus you take falling damage for a failed climb check. Taking 20 automatically rolls a 1 19 times in a row, then rolls a 20; you'll fall 19 times before you get to the top. Even at minimum damage, that's 19 points, putting your wizard at -11.
Actually, it'd be within the DM's rights to force two climb checks, which'd force you to "take 400" (20x20).
Also, I note that you very cleverly never state what abilities your "wicked cool hat" has, and it seems to change from encounter to encounter...
lastknightleft wrote: Look, I'm trying not to do angry posts here, but you can't really say that your building a wizard in 15 minutes qualifies because as you said in the other thread, you build wizards all the time.
Also, you are getting quite insulting, I have no desire to debate with you if you are going to make statements that basically call my close friends half-brained beginners, especially since some of them are probably older, and definitely (by your statement of having played for 15 years) more experienced gamers than you, I'm not, I'll admit I'm not, but no offense, you play D&D in a way that most of the players I play with would shake their heads at. And honestly if you can't tone back the insults I'm not going to try and talk rationally with you.
I don't seem to recall directing any insults at anyone, just pointing out some design necessities of the wizard.
Age also isn't that important to character design - you brought up your personal experience, so I thought I'd note mine. Experience which showed a clear trend away from evocation as player knowledge improved.
Evocation could be playable if (1) evocation spells were improved and (2) existing spells were lower in level. Fireball could seriously be a 1st level spell and no one would care. It could be uncapped and it would be perfectly balanced. By 11th level if your main offense is damage spells and they aren't doing 2d6/level at top tier, you're seriously behind the curve. By 17th level if your top tier spells aren't doing 3d6/level, you are behind the curve. Seriously behind the curve. 60d6 damage is a mere 210 expected damage with a save for half, something the barbarian can churn out pretty easily (without the save) and he can't do level-appropriate things. And that's 3x the damage you're going to get from current top-tier evocation spells.
Would I like evocation to be relevant and thus playable? Yes. That doesn't require me to think it is. My standard of 'every class should be able to do level appropriate things' applies to all archetypes, which includes blast mages.
Look, my standard on character design when choosing an option is that it must have an effect of magnitude >= the opportunity cost of the choice. Improved Initiative is a +4 in every combat the character ever fights. Spell Focus: Necromancy is a +1 to the DC of a rather small list of spells, most of which no one ever casts. Improved Initiative passes this test, spell focus does not. I'll note that all the choices I made for the Barbarian's rage powers passed those tests in my initial analysis, and I did in fact use every one of them, most of them multiple times. (Strength Surge being a situational 'crap, i'm about to be screwed' power, which just happened not to come up especially often).
Similarly, sleep >> any 1st level necromancy spell. Its really that simple. Damage << any useful spell of comparable level. Also that simple. There is a small niche for damage dealing spells in the 5th-9th level range, but only against some monsters. After that monster HD (and hp) ramp up so fast that the amount of damage a wizard can expect to put out is laughable.
Damage was actually arguably better in 2nd edition, because saving throws were better. It has a secondary effect whereas most of the save-or-lose spells are all or nothing. When saves are almost guaranteed (and lets face it, after a certain point they were), you'd rather deal half damage than do nothing. Of course, there were also some creative spells choices that were brutally effective, but many people continued to use damage spells because it was easy and you were guaranteed an effect. Low levels still featured a lot of save-or-lose because you hadn't gotten to virtual auto-make territory yet. (Sleep was notably popular at 1st level)
Then 3e comes around and suddenly you can ramp up spell save difficulty. In fact, with a good array of spells and useful knowledge skills (to learn monster weaknesses), you can expect to be able to target its poor save with a save-or-lose spell and give it very little chance of passing *at any level*. Suddenly damage looks a lot worse because (1) its just damage and (2) reflex is a good save for quite a lot of monsters (as opposed to will, which isn't for quite a lot of monsters). Furthermore, you had useful save-or-lose spells for every save, even reflex (notably Web). At which point even the last hold-outs I knew for focused blast mages switched over to the save-or-lose paradigm.
And as you may have learned from my analysis of Blue Tanya, she actually does worse than Baughdvnleob despite being 'better optimized'. So I'm not necessarily convinced Baughdvnleob is really that bad. I can see a few improvements I could have made, but they actually make him perform worse in some situations and better in others. Which means its not straight improvement, and thus optimized for different things. I'll confess some of Baughdvnleob's advantages are from being a Dwarf, which is really too good as a race at low levels, but that's an optimized choice designed to deal with some of a melee characters flaws (notably weak saves and poor senses in darkness - torches are for losers).
So, you can take this as an insult, or you can take it as an explanation of why some choices are simply just better than others. Its kind of hard to go back once you realize it. Being ignorant of some set of facts isn't being stupid, refusing to believe the evidence when its shown to you is. (If there are facts you think i'm ignorant of that disprove my point, by all means, debate the issue). I'm not calling you stupid, I just think you haven't considered the mechanical implications of the differences between damage and save-or-lose spells. Now you know.
cappadocius wrote: As for a Climb check? Good luck with that -2 Strength modifier. Climbing a basic pit trap worthy of the name is a 25 DC. If you're smart and corner climb, it's a 20. The best she can get taking 20 is a 18.
Seriously, man, a 1st level solo mage with Strength Six is going to die in a 20 foot pit trap unless the GM is very generous.
Halflings have a +2 racial bonus to Climb checks.
It's not likely to help, however.
Zurai wrote: You can't take 20 to climb out of the pit. Its height is greater than 10', thus you take falling damage for a failed climb check. Taking 20 automatically rolls a 1 19 times in a row, then rolls a 20; you'll fall 19 times before you get to the top. Even at minimum damage, that's 19 points, putting your wizard at -11.
Actually, it'd be within the DM's rights to force two climb checks, which'd force you to "take 400" (20x20).
Actually, each Climb check only gets you one move action and quarter speed - so the halfling has to make 4 Climb checks in a row to get out.
Zurai wrote: Also, I note that you very cleverly never state what abilities your "wicked cool hat" has, and it seems to change from encounter to encounter... That's because it's the halfling's arcane bonded item - though it is an illegal choice for such, since it's not a wand, staff, ring, weapon or amulet. This isn't relevant at first level but easily could become so later, because a head slot item is a valid choice for Int boosting items, and giving a wizard the abilty to get those for half price striks me as unfairly beneficial. She can, however, cast any spell she knows through it once a day, and so he's using it precisely in the manner it is meant to be used.
One thing I'll note is that many of these foes are placed in optimized environments, like orcs in pitch black. Others are placed in suboptimal environments, like a single lemure at a long distance without any chance of surprise. The meagre lemure if it is hidden might get surprise and close to melee, at which point in order to play keep away our friend the gnome will have to either:
1) draw an attack of opportunity by walking away, cast exp retreat, watch as the lemure closes the distance, and draw another attack of op moving at accelerated rates away, or...
2) cast exp retreat on the defenisive, and since the gnome doesn't have Combat Casting there's a chance he or she will take the hit anyway; if he doesn't, then he will anyway when he scurries away, but won't suffer another concentration check against the damage.
Alternately, the gnome could go for melee combat.
Note - this is also true for many of the other combats as well.
cappadocius wrote: Squirrelloid wrote:
cappadocious wrote: It's not a win until you tell me how the wizard gets OUT of the pit. Technically, feather fall only effects downward momentum, so since she was walking forward to fall into the pit trap she has forward momentum that doesn't change and actually drifts across and catches the far side at about her waist.
Even if she ends up in the pit, she spends some time re-prepping for Mage Hand and Prestidigitation in her Cantrip slots, and uses them to tie her rope around something. Or she can try climbing out (+0 Climb check). A 20' deep pit is not that hard to get out of, and she can take 20.
Feather fall instantly changes the rate at which the targets fall to a mere 60 feet per round (equivalent to the end of a fall from a few feet), and the subjects take no damage upon landing while the spell is in effect.
50 feet of SRD rope weighs 10 pounds. Which is more than Mage Hand can lift; let's be very generous and say it can lift the 30 feet or so needed to get out. NOW we have to assume there's something you can tie the rope to within <10 feet of the top, since our little first level mage can't manipulate the rope more than 30 feet away. Ok, myself and a math graduate student friend math-bashed this and decided that its pretty close if you're human (they miss the edge of the pit by about 2' - a tall human can grab it), but a halfling totally fails.
Now, if its silk (which it could be), it only weighs 5lbs. And half of a 10lb rope ways 5lbs. Further, Mage Hand exerts 5lbs of force, which means if she throws the end of the rope out (perfectly plausible, even with Str 6), the Mage Hand is dragging not lifting, and thus can drag more than it could lift.
["quote=Cappadocious"]As for a Climb check? Good luck with that -2 Strength modifier. Climbing a basic pit trap worthy of the name is a 25 DC. If you're smart and corner climb, it's a 20. The best she can get taking 20 is a 18. You're forgetting the +2 for being a halfling.
Cappadocious wrote: Seriously, man, a 1st level solo mage with Strength Six is going to die in a 20 foot pit trap unless the GM is very generous. You know, all I have to do is add a grappling hook to her gear and she's out... which would have been completely reasonable, and was left off by mistake.
Squirrelloid wrote: Now, if its silk (which it could be), it only weighs 5lbs. Makes a damn bit of difference doesn't it? Be nice if your equipment list specified.
Squirrelloid wrote: Further, Mage Hand exerts 5lbs of force, which means if she throws the end of the rope out (perfectly plausible, even with Str 6), the Mage Hand is dragging not lifting, and thus can drag more than it could lift. So what? What is she hooking this rope on to? Or are you honestly suggesting Mage Hand drags her up as it's thrown??
Squirrelloid wrote: You know, all I have to do is add a grappling hook to her gear and she's out... which would have been completely reasonable, and was left off by mistake. Coulda. Woulda. Shoulda. There's a lot of equipment you could have given the Barbarian to make *it* more effective at the challenges. But you didn't.
I'm sorry. Halfling Wizard fails the HELL out of the 1st level pit challenge.
Pneumonica wrote: One thing I'll note is that many of these foes are placed in optimized environments, like orcs in pitch black. Others are placed in suboptimal environments, like a single lemure at a long distance without any chance of surprise. The meagre lemure if it is hidden might get surprise and close to melee, at which point in order to play keep away our friend the gnome will have to either:
1) draw an attack of opportunity by walking away, cast exp retreat, watch as the lemure closes the distance, and draw another attack of op moving at accelerated rates away, or...
2) cast exp retreat on the defenisive, and since the gnome doesn't have Combat Casting there's a chance he or she will take the hit anyway; if he doesn't, then he will anyway when he scurries away, but won't suffer another concentration check against the damage.
Alternately, the gnome could go for melee combat.
Note - this is also true for many of the other combats as well.
The opponents are placed in environments as appropriate to their abilities and their terrain. Orcs are light sensitive, and thus won't be found walking around in daylight, its really that simple.
Lemures have no stealth abilities whatsoever, and even underground it has 20' movement with no ranged attack options, meaning even if it gets surprise its not going to melee right away. The halfling also beats it at initiative most of the time, seriously. Try actually looking at monsters sensory and movement abilities and initiative modifiers before coming to crazy conclusions about where they should be fought and what should happen.
On the hat:
Sigh, i should have read the list more closely. An awesome hat sounds much cooler than a ring or a staff. Ok, i'll choose something else for when enchanting it actually matters. (Not that slot is a serious roadblock for +2 int - oh no, it'll cost 500gp more! I was having a hard time spending my cash as it was anyway)
On the pit:
I gave the barbarian a grappling hook. Also, grappling hooks are actually standard and non-class specific, because you seriously need your own. I have yet to see good evidence that there exists some reasonable equipment load actually makes the Barbarian's life any easier. (10 bottles of acid won't on average kill the Centipede Swarm, which is what Blue Tanya elected to take - who i'll note didn't count consumables against character wealth; they replenish but they aren't in addition to).
Seriously, we're discussing reasonable gear. A grappling hook is completely mundane and typical for any class.
And ropes for a halfling weigh 1/4 as much, so Mage Hand can lift the whole thing as necessary.
And given some featureless surrounding so tying a rope is implausible - the halfling can mage hand her crossbow up and pull the trigger to stick a quarrel into something (including a crack in a stone), giving her something she can tie onto. In fact, she can shoot multiple quarrels until there are enough to support her weight if you don't think one is enough. All she has to do is see where the mage hand is pointing it, which can mean any wall visible from the bottom of the pit, like say just under the lip of the pit (where she can reach out and grab the edge?)
(And we can talk about sheer stresses on wood all we want, there exists some relatively small number of quarrels that can accomplish this.)
The problem is that you're considering this a win for the wizard, who now has to climb out, and could fail a couple climb checks, potentially getting killed in the process.
Compare to the barbarian, who will survive the fall, and could much more easily climb back out, which you've considered a loss.
Squirreloid wrote:
And ropes for a halfling weigh 1/4 as much, so Mage Hand can lift the whole thing as necessary.
And given some featureless surrounding so tying a rope is implausible - the halfling can mage hand her crossbow up and pull the trigger to stick a quarrel into something (including a crack in a stone), giving her something she can tie onto. In fact, she can shoot multiple quarrels until there are enough to support her weight if you don't think one is enough. All she has to do is see where the mage hand is pointing it, which can mean any wall visible from the bottom of the pit, like say just under the lip of the pit (where she can reach out and grab the edge?)
(And we can talk about sheer stresses on wood all we want, there exists some relatively small number of quarrels that can accomplish this.)
MAN, I bet Bob the Barbarian wishes you'd schemed and excused and stretched as much to have his losses count as wins.
Also, not to be nit-picky, but doesn't everything on that list have darkvision except for the elf wizard? It seems like you've only taken that into account in the case of the orc fight. It seems to me that something like that would put the halfling at a serious disadvantage in just about every test.
Infamous Jum wrote: Also, not to be nit-picky, but doesn't everything on that list have darkvision except for the elf wizard? It seems like you've only taken that into account in the case of the orc fight. It seems to me that something like that would put the halfling at a serious disadvantage in just about every test. Darkvision is only relevant if you're likely encountering them in darkness (like the orcs). The others are not nocturnal, there's no evidence they're nocturnal (and plenty that they are in some cases), and their habitat isn't subterranean.
cappadocius wrote: Squirreloid wrote:
And ropes for a halfling weigh 1/4 as much, so Mage Hand can lift the whole thing as necessary.
And given some featureless surrounding so tying a rope is implausible - the halfling can mage hand her crossbow up and pull the trigger to stick a quarrel into something (including a crack in a stone), giving her something she can tie onto. In fact, she can shoot multiple quarrels until there are enough to support her weight if you don't think one is enough. All she has to do is see where the mage hand is pointing it, which can mean any wall visible from the bottom of the pit, like say just under the lip of the pit (where she can reach out and grab the edge?)
(And we can talk about sheer stresses on wood all we want, there exists some relatively small number of quarrels that can accomplish this.)
MAN, I bet Bob the Barbarian wishes you'd schemed and excused and stretched as much to have his losses count as wins. If it makes you happy we can count it as a loss, though it seems pretty stupid to me that a simple grappling hook, which was intended to be on her equipment list anyway, solves the entire problem trivially. Also, open-ended magic makes for great problem solving, and being stuck in a pit isn't exactly an 'i have 3 rounds to solve this or be dead' situation.
Baughdvnleob took the falling damage from the pit, which is what the pit is trying to accomplish. The wizard doesn't. Its really that simple.
Do note that the hat has been replaced by an amulet, because apparently hats don't qualify as valid item familiars. Which is too bad, a hat is so much more characterful.
Lets also be honest, core feats suck for wizards, so yes, I took Great Fortitude. There isn't exactly much else worth taking...
!Xou'aktl, female Halfling Necromancer:
Forbidden Schools: Evocation, Divination
Str 6
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 20
Wis 10
Cha 12
Level 4:
Racial: Small, Slow, Keen Senses (Sound), Sure-Footed, Halfling Luck, Fearless, Weap Fam (Sling)
Skills: Spellcraft 4, Kno(Planes) 4, Kno(Religion) 4, Kno(Arcane) 4, Kno(Dungeoneering) 4, Kno (Nature) 1
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Improved Initiative, Great Fortitude
Class Abilities: Necromancer, Grave Touch, Arcane Bond (Wicked Cool Hat), Spells, Spellbook, Ray of Enfeeblement 1/2CLs, False Life 1/day
Equipment (5.4k): Spellbook, Cloak of Resistance +1, Robe, Wicked Bone Ankh (Arcane Bond), Staff, Crossbow, 20 quarrels, 20 silver quarrels, 20 cold-iron quarrels, 50' rope, flint and steel, 2 smokesticks, a torch, grappling hook
Expendables: Potion of Delay Poison, Scroll of Protection from Arrows, Scroll of Invisibility, Scroll of Animate Dead
Cash spent on additional spells: 600gp
Wicked Bone Ankh (Amulet): Intelligence +2 (1.5k gp), Perception +5 (937.5gp)
Spellbook:
0th: Resistance, Acid Splash, Daze, Read Magic, Ghost Sounds, Disrupt Undead, Touch of Fatigue, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation
1st: Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep, Protection from Evil, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor, Feather Fall, Grease, Shield
2nd: Web, Glitterdust, Blindness/Deafness, Levitate, Darkvision, Protection from Arrows, Knock
Spells Memorized (4/4/3): DC 15 + spell level
Cantrips: Acid Splash, Touch of Fatigue, Prestidigitation, Resistance
1st: Mage Armor*, Sleep, Expeditious Retreat, Protection from Evil
2nd: Web, Glitterdust, Darkvision*
*already cast
Senses:
Perception +5
Initiative +7
Darkvision 60'
Defenses:
HP: 24.5 + 9.5 temporary (false life) = 34
AC: 18 (14 + 4 Mage Armor)
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +6
EL 4 challenges
A Water-Filled Room Trap
An Aranea
A Five-Headed Hydra
A Centipede Swarm
A Pair of Blink Dogs
A Pair of Huge Monstrous Centipedes
A Pair of Quasits
An Elf Wizard 4
A Sea Hag
An Endless Sea of Rats (ok, not endless, but a freaking huge number of them)
Please note that due to the nature of Animate Dead, I'm going to assume !Xou'Aktl starts with no minions and the encounters happen in order.
A Water-Filled Room Trap
She amulets for Knock, and the door opens.
Certain Win
An Aranea
Similar senses, similar initiative, and the web bizarrely enough doesn't stop spellcasting... So its !Xou'Aktl's Will +6 vs. the Aranea's DC 13 sleep or the Aranea's Will +4 vs. !Xou'aktl's DC 17 Glitterdust - advantage whomever gets initiative, but the wizard does better losing initiative than the Aranea does (And once its blind it can't target its spell-likes as well, allowing !Xou'aktl to go in for the kill).
Probable Win. And +Aranea skeleton minion.
Aranea Skeleton. HD:3d12 (19.5hp), Mv30', Init +7, AC 15, Imm Cold, DR 5/Bludgeon, Svs: F+1, R+4, W+4, FA: Bite +1, Claw -4 x2 (1d6, 1d4, 1d4).
A Five-Headed Hydra
With only a Will +3, its pretty easy to defeat (Sleep), especially as its slow. However, !Xou'aktl has no good way of killing it so she can animate its corpse - and she'd really rather have a hydra skeleton than almost anything else at this level. But getting past it is still victory.
Certain Win.
A Centipede Swarm
It drops onto her in the surprise round and messes her up bigtime. If she's lucky she gets to run away. There are no good ways to deal with a swarm for a wizard at these levels, especially now that Web grapples (and you can't grapple swarms...). Even a blast mage would have a serious hard-on for fireball right now, which doesn't come until next level, not that this mage can use that, but there would be other options, like vampiric touch which actually works...
Certain Loss.
A Pair of Blink Dogs
They have a will+4 and initiative +3. However, a little more than half the time they can dim door in to start the combat (near equivalent spotting skills, slightly better hiding skills, but dim door ends your turn so no attack). Glitterdust will utterly hose them, however, and they don't hit remarkably often. And she has a skeletal minion which utterly owns them in close combat, so all she needs to do is stay alive. Meaning Ray of Enfeeblement (sp) and Touch of Fatigue are sufficient to beat this every time.
Certain Win.
A Pair of Huge Monstrous Centipedes
Pretty equivalent sensory options, and !Xou'aktl can block them with her minion so they can't charge her. She also has a major initiative advantage. Of course, they're vermin, so no mind-affecting spells, but Web can delay them (and anchors are likely since the centipedes are subterranean monsters) as their CMB is +15, which is at a 2pt disadvantage. Blindness/Deafness can also take one out because its not mind-affecting. They will tend to tear the skeletal Aranea to pieces, but it takes 2-3 hits, and they only hit 50% of the time, meaning !Xou'aktl has lots of time to work with. Ray of Enfeeblement will seriously hinder the Monstrous Scorpions ability to do damage, buying more time, and their mobility will be limited by the web (which they'll have a harder time escaping when enfeebled). And her crossbow can add to the damage output. Basically, she buys time (web), reduces it to a 1-2 fight (by blinding one centipede), and then ray of enfeebles that centipede so that her Aranea skeleton and her can kill it off with damage. Then they can deal with the blinded one who is in even worse shape.
Probable Win. (It gets a harder if she doesn't win initiative, but that just makes it more even).
+ Humongous Centipede Zombie via scroll. (Because the scroll can only create up to 14HD of undead, it can't grab both)
Humongous Centipede Zombie. HD 12d12+15 (93hp), Mv 40' Climb 40', Init +1, AC 19, DR 5/slashing, single-action only, Svs F+4 R+5 W+8. Bite +10 (2d6+6), S/R 15'/10'
(The Aranea is likely badly beaten at this point, but we can get a cleric to cast inflict light wounds in town)
A Pair of Quasits
They get surprise and have little problem hitting. And the DC 13 poison with good dex damage is painfully brutal. But we have animate minions, one of whom is brutally efficient at dealing damage to them once they've made themselves known. And Quasits don't do much damage. They can also Cause Fear, which makes !Xou'Aktl run a decent amount of the time, but does nothing to her minions.
Basically, this combat goes down by either reducing !Xou'aktl to 0 dex (in ~3 rounds) or making her run like a little girl, but the Quasits get mauled by the minions who have nothing to fear from the Quasits. Stalemate.
Even.
An Elf Wizard 4
The shoe is on the other foot here, because Blindness/Deafness can be ankhed for and certainly works well. The elf wizard will, on average, have a worse Fort save than !Xou'aktl by 2-4 (Great Fortitude depending), which means the elf will fail against Blindness/Deafness most of the time. After that its just mopping up. Direct Damage won't kill !Xou'aktl in one round or even two rounds at these levels, and !Xou'aktl has a likely advantage on every save due to halfling racial traits. However, that still means a remarkably high number of failed saves. Initiative should be expected to be even. The elf may have a hard time dealing with !Xou'aktl's minions and her though, so actually killing !Xou is more problematic.
Actually a probable Win based on save advantage and actual kill advantage after the foe is disabled. But in general this should be even because its a mirror match, and we'll count it as such.
A Sea Hag
It spams fort and will saves, cannot be reached by undead minions, and has SR 14. this is painful horrible death.
Certain Loss
An Endless Sea of Rats
Web => game, set, and match. And by match i actually mean flint and steel, and burnination. 2d4 fire damage kills the rats easily.
Certain Win.
Certain Win 4
Probable Win 2
Even 2
Probable Loss
Certain Loss 2
6.5 out of 10. A little too good, but the undead minion route helps out quite a bit. (mmm... 1000gp of 'renewable' resources in animate dead scroll). This drops to closer to a 5 without minions, but we're a necromancer, we want to get on that minion boat as soon as possible. And the minions are absolutely no help in a number of challenges.
Very insightful...
I have to say though that my experience with evocation and how people really play wizards is the same as yours thought SQLord.I think it's like you said in the other post. 3.5 wizards pass challenges on thier own as well... Not that big a change (somewhat thankfully)
Doesn't the hydra's 5 hit dice put it over the limit for Sleep? And not to beat on a dead horse, but the wizard would most certainly take damage from the pit climbing out, as she's likely to fail a couple checks and fall.
Infamous Jum wrote: Doesn't the hydra's 5 hit dice put it over the limit for Sleep? You are correct. Hydra eats Wizard. Wizard loses.
I'm also really curious how a CR 1/3 Skeleton "completely owns" two CR 2 blink dogs.
EDIT: Oh, I see. The Aranea gets turned into a skeleton. It doesn't make any sense how you skeletonize a spider, which lacks a skeleton, but I anticipate an argument over that one.
Yep. 5-headed Hydra can't be slept and Araneas cannot be Raised as skeletons.
I'm curious as to how you calculated the EL for the endless sea of rats, which you've stated is around 30. Could you be so kind as to share the math you've used?
Edit: I'm just curious because I always get a little confused with calculating large numbers of creatures with CRs under 1.
cappadocius wrote: Infamous Jum wrote: Doesn't the hydra's 5 hit dice put it over the limit for Sleep? You are correct. Hydra eats Wizard. Wizard loses.
I'm also really curious how a CR 1/3 Skeleton "completely owns" two CR 2 blink dogs.
EDIT: Oh, I see. The Aranea gets turned into a skeleton. It doesn't make any sense how you skeletonize a spider, which lacks a skeleton, but I anticipate an argument over that one. First, the aranea is not a spider, its a shapeshifter that happens to have a spider form and a humanoid form. At which point skeletal structure is likely as humanoid form is impossible without one.
And it owns the blink dogs with the wizards help because blink dogs simply are not impressive at combat for CR2, and some supporting spells from the wizard make them pushovers. Seriously, *without* the skeleton, the wizard goes about even with the blink dogs. I ran the combat 4 times without the skeleton and the wizard never actually lost - it was just pretty close but ultimately !Xou'aktl could blind one of them letting her deal with the other one by itself, and she could often blind it as well. If you want I can post combat logs when I'm back at my computer.
Second, whoops on the Hydra. Ok, so we can glitterdust it to blind it, we can blindness/deafness while its blinded (ankhing for one) with a really good chance of it failing one of them, and we easily get a couple of rounds before it can close because its slow and encounter distances are on the order of 90'.
There is no world in which a Hydra eats the wizard, because it is too likely to fail a save against multiple somethings. Even its fort save isn't that impressive at +9 vs. DC 17. Even a web is pretty likely to hold it for a few turns, as its CMB is only +8. And we have Ray of Enfeeblement as a spell-like to make that even worse for it.
Infamous Jum wrote: I'm curious as to how you calculated the EL for the endless sea of rats, which you've stated is around 30. Could you be so kind as to share the math you've used?
Edit: I'm just curious because I always get a little confused with calculating large numbers of creatures with CRs under 1.
Its a lot of rats. My understanding of CR<1 is that they actually do scale linearly, or are at least supposed to, so 32 is EL4. Its certainly true that 8 are EL1, so 32 would be EL 5 if we take the doubling approach (though i recall the DMG saying this specifically doesn't work with CR<1 monsters), and something like 24 is EL4. 24-32 doesn't actually make much difference. I was just ballparking on the 30 number.
Squirrelloid wrote:
First, the aranea is not a spider, its a shapeshifter that happens to have a spider form and a humanoid form. At which point skeletal structure is likely as humanoid form is impossible without one.
http://www.d20srd.org wrote: An aranea is an intelligent, shapechanging spider with sorcerous powers. Emphasis mine.
But, whatever. You'll just make the aranea a zombie, or otherwise find some other way to make the wizard perfectly balanced. I'm done with these rigged playtest threads. Enjoy proving what you already know to be true.
cappadocius wrote: Squirrelloid wrote:
First, the aranea is not a spider, its a shapeshifter that happens to have a spider form and a humanoid form. At which point skeletal structure is likely as humanoid form is impossible without one.
http://www.d20srd.org wrote: An aranea is an intelligent, shapechanging spider with sorcerous powers. Emphasis mine.
But, whatever. You'll just make the aranea a zombie, or otherwise find some other way to make the wizard perfectly balanced. I'm done with these rigged playtest threads. Enjoy proving what you already know to be true. There's actually no guidelines in the MM as to what has a skeleton, and Aranea's are magical beasts not vermin. My assumption was based on the logical impossibility of humanoid form without a skeleton, but yes, it can be zombified regardless.
How is it rigged? Are you saying these aren't valid options for a wizard?
For the record, LVL 1 adjustments (I apparently can't edit them anymore)
Door: Certain Loss, as much as i think acid should penetrate hardness, it doesn't as written.
Pit: Certain Loss due to neglectfully forgetting to include Grappling Hook on her gear list. Judge for yourself whether this should be held against the class.
Orcs: Probable Loss - she can ballpark the location of the orcs, but this makes it much less favorable to her.
Net shift - 1.75 against to 4/10, which is still in the balanced range (but just barely)
Not to be totally nitpicky...
you have False life giving 9.5 hp as being precast, but its not in his spellbook, nor in his memorized spell list for the day. It lasts 1 hour/level so its not something he can cast the day before and still have on him the next.
Would that mean that he would have to give up one of his memorized 2nd levels spells?
Know Remorse wrote: Not to be totally nitpicky...
you have False life giving 9.5 hp as being precast, but its not in his spellbook, nor in his memorized spell list for the day. It lasts 1 hour/level so its not something he can cast the day before and still have on him the next.
Would that mean that he would have to give up one of his memorized 2nd levels spells?
Please check the Necromancy school powers. The level 4 one to be particular. It still lasts 4 hours, which is a reasonable adventuring day for a level 4 wizard.
Squirrelloid wrote: How is it rigged? Are you saying these aren't valid options for a wizard? The contention is that, when confronted with an error in your calculation or reasoning, you have yet to concede and alter the outcome of any test. Which comes across as assuming a win and explaining it after the fact. At each point, you're arguments become harder and harder to swallow. The fact remains that there have been a number of mistakes in your testing. I'll have to agree with Cappadocius here, it would seem that it's pointless to discuss the matter further. Thanks for the interesting discussion.
Edit: I stand corrected, somewhat.
You have the wizard fighting the Aranea in either its spider or its hybrid form (you mention that its web doesn't stop spellcasting, plus you list a bite attack on the skeleton). Its spider form is explicitly defined as "a Medium monstrous spider". Spiders have no skeletal structure. It's really hard to get around the fact that Skeletal is a template that can not be applied to a creature without a defined skeletal structure when you're trying to create a spider skeleton.
Now, you could say that the aranea was in its hybrid form when the wizard encounters it... but that's really kinda cheating. Its natural form is a medium monstrous spider. The monster description doesn't make any mention of Araneas being particularly reluctant to use their natural form (unlike, say, Doppelgangers), so the best assumption is that a random encounter with one will be in its natural form.
Raising it as a zombie instead is doable, but it's a significantly weaker creature AND it counts double against your Animate Dead HD limit (since zombies get double HD).
Infamous Jum wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: How is it rigged? Are you saying these aren't valid options for a wizard? The contention is that, when confronted with an error in your calculation or reasoning, you have yet to concede and alter the outcome of any test. Which comes across as assuming a win and explaining it after the fact. At each point, you're arguments become harder and harder to swallow. The fact remains that there have been a number of mistakes in your testing. I'll have to agree with Cappadocius here, it would seem that it's pointless to discuss the matter further. Thanks for the interesting discussion.
Edit: I stand corrected, somewhat. If I could edit my first post...
I conceeded the acid-door thing immediately after checking the SRD, you'll note that in my above response. I conceeded the sleep is a full round action thing, and explained specifically where it mattered.
The stuck in a pit thing is solveable by player creativity, i can think of a number of ways simple cantrips could be used to get out. And there should have been a grappling hook on the character sheet, just like there was for the Bbn. That's the only long argument on this thread regarding winning a scenario, and conceeding it really doesn't matter in the long run.
I also conceeded my mistake on teh hydra, but pointed out the number of other options available. A zombie Aranea actually does just fine (hits more often and does slightly more damage), and i pointed out the blink dog fight is a little bit on her side of even without any minion present. (And can back that up with combat logs).
I am quite willing to discuss the nature of the run throughs. I have conceeded to points more often than I have argued them, and I think its perfectly valid to look at alternate solutions should the written one be shown to not actually work rather than just declaring it a loss (like people seemed willing to do with the Hydra), especially when the wizard has the appropriate knowledge for the critter in question to know things about it with a successful knowledge check that she makes 90% of the time.
Sorry, I'm being confusing and I don't intend to be. "The contention" in the above post refers to Cappadocius's accusation of rigging. I should have clarified the difference between that and my own issues, but I didn't so net result = Jum fails Diplomacy check. I'll agree that you've certainly adjusted things, however I do still disagree with a number of issues, and you seemed less than willing to discuss. I apologize, I'm not trying to be antagonistic here. I can see that I've misunderstood you, and I'm truly sorry for that. Now, let us discuss, if you will?
I think perhaps it would help, for future playtests, if you gave some more detail on what you consider a win or a lose. This, I believe, has caused some confusion. For instance, I don't really agree that the pit trap "wins" merely by damaging the character, and I imagine I'm not alone in that. But I will say that myself and others would probably not have argued as much if you had stated that as the victory condition to begin with.
Similarly, I don't see a lot of distinction between putting a foe to sleep and running away, and just running away. In fact I would probably hold the first instance as more of a loss, as the encounter has used up a spell. In the barbarian playtest, for example, he flees from both the rats and the centipede swarm, yet loses. In the hydra example in this playtest, she puts it to sleep and runs for a win. In the revisited example, she limits it's combat abilities but will ultimately have to flee, as she has no practical chance of killing it. End result: blast off a bunch of spells, run away, still a win.
As to the pit trap, grappling hook or no, she still has to actually climb out. Not an easy task for a character with a 0 modifier (-2 Strength +2 halfling) in a skill that doesn't allow Taking 20. She'll likely fall and take damage, which by your standard means a lose. She might even die trying to climb out. Yes, I know you've already put it down as a lose; however, you chalk it up to a simple mistake in equipment, rather than the fact that she's unlikely to climb out unscathed. I know, I'm being picky here, but I feel that it is important to point out nonetheless.
Last point, the aranea's web does in fact affect spellcasting, though I'm more inclined to believe this comes from a lack of complete explanation in the creature's entry and not some flim-flaming on your part. While in the web, you're considered Entangled and would have to make a Spellcraft check of 15 + the spell's level or lose the spell. With a Spellcraft of 4, that will change the outcome a bit.
Thanks for taking the time to discuss things. I look forward to your response.
Infamous Jum wrote: Sorry, I'm being confusing and I don't intend to be. "The contention" in the above post refers to Cappadocius's accusation of rigging. I should have clarified the difference between that and my own issues, but I didn't so net result = Jum fails Diplomacy check. I'll agree that you've certainly adjusted things, however I do still disagree with a number of issues, and you seemed less than willing to discuss. I apologize, I'm not trying to be antagonistic here. I can see that I've misunderstood you, and I'm truly sorry for that. Now, let us discuss, if you will?
I think perhaps it would help, for future playtests, if you gave some more detail on what you consider a win or a lose. This, I believe, has caused some confusion. For instance, I don't really agree that the pit trap "wins" merely by damaging the character, and I imagine I'm not alone in that. But I will say that myself and others would probably not have argued as much if you had stated that as the victory condition to begin with.
Similarly, I don't see a lot of distinction between putting a foe to sleep and running away, and just running away. In fact I would probably hold the first instance as more of a loss, as the encounter has used up a spell. In the barbarian playtest, for example, he flees from both the rats and the centipede swarm, yet loses. In the hydra example in this playtest, she puts it to sleep and runs for a win. In the revisited example, she limits it's combat abilities but will ultimately have to flee, as she has no practical chance of killing it. End result: blast off a bunch of spells, run away, still a win.
Its not 'put it to sleep and run away' or 'disable and run away'. The point is to get past the challenge. Permanently disabling lets you do that, running away means not getting past it. Ie, she gets to walk around/by it because its not chasing after her, so she bypasses the encounter. You don't have to kill a monster to defeat it, that's just one method (and a relatively common one). If you can go along your way, you're fine. The blinded Hydra cannot chase her, and thus she can continue on her way. The barbarian, on the other hand, can run faster, but it can travel in a straight line through the marsh (expected net-difference zero or hydra's favor) by swimming, and thus the only direction the barbarian can actually try to run away is back the way s/he came - and it might still catch him or her. Basically, running away means you couldn't get past it, disabling means you can. And that's what the DMG specifically defines as winning.
Infamous Jum wrote:
As to the pit trap, grappling hook or no, she still has to actually climb out. Not an easy task for a character with a 0 modifier (-2 Strength +2 halfling) in a skill that doesn't allow Taking 20. She'll likely fall and take damage, which by your standard means a lose. She might even die trying to climb out. Yes, I know you've already put it down as a lose; however, you chalk it up to a simple mistake in equipment, rather than the fact that she's unlikely to climb out unscathed. I know, I'm being picky here, but I feel that it is important to point out nonetheless.
Eh, whatever. I really don't care to argue the point on this. Its a Certain Loss, I can live with that. Lets move on.
Infamous Jum wrote: Last point, the aranea's web does in fact affect spellcasting, though I'm more inclined to believe this comes from a lack of complete explanation in the creature's entry and not some flim-flaming on your part. While in the web, you're considered Entangled and would have to make a Spellcraft check of 15 + the spell's level or lose the spell. With a Spellcraft of 4, that will change the outcome a bit. You're right, its not that well explained. What I got from the monster text was it prevents movement.
That's 4 ranks of spellcraft, which is a +4 (ranks) +3 (in-class) +5 (Intelligence) = +12 check. DC 17 (fails 20%), and only if the Aranea goes first.
I think I shorted the text on my argument, actually. I think the Aranea doesn't bother to toss a web because of its low effectiveness - she just starts casting spells because its more likely to do something, and what it does is *win* as opposed to mildly annoy !Xou'aktl. So its just a race to cast the first save-or-lose spell that your opponent fails, and !Xou wins this contest more often than she loses.
Squirrelloid wrote: Its not 'put it to sleep and run away' or 'disable and run away'. The point is to get past the challenge. Makes sense.
Squirrelloid wrote: That's 4 ranks of spellcraft, which is a +4 (ranks) +3 (in-class) +5 (Intelligence) = +12 check. DC 17 (fails 20%), and only if the Aranea goes first. My bad, I'm used to seeing statblocks with all the various bits of the skill added up. I hadn't even considered it and so didn't bother to do the math myself.
Well then, I look forward to the level 7 tests.
Why does the wizard not come into the 'tests' with a skeletal or zombied servant? Why isn't this undead servant assumed to be at 'full' at the beginning of each encounter? It seems to me that this would be a better test of the wizard.
Dax Thura wrote: Why does the wizard not come into the 'tests' with a skeletal or zombied servant? Why isn't this undead servant assumed to be at 'full' at the beginning of each encounter? It seems to me that this would be a better test of the wizard. Well, she does when she acquires one during a previous test. I don't want to be accused of cherrypicking a good skeleton or zombie (or multiple thereof) from the book, and so this is possibly harsher on the build than it should be. (I mean, she can be walking around with 32HD of undead thanks to her necromacy specialization, which is rather a lot). So anything she's going to animate she has to kill herself during the test. Its not realistic, but it stops people from crying foul.
Dax Thura wrote: Why isn't this undead servant assumed to be at 'full' at the beginning of each encounter? Healing undead is difficult for a wizard, as he doesn't have a spell for that. Getting good bodies isn't easy, either.
In that regard, the test is completely okay, or even favorable to the wizard: due to travelling and legal/social concerns, it's not unlikely to loose undead minions between encounters.
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