I could see a same-sex couple of Erastil's Faith running an Orphanage or such...
Think of the outrage it would caused among ignorants who fail to distinguish between homosexuals and pedophiles!
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Some stuff about Erastil.
Word.
The misogyny of Erastil is something that has always bothered me, and I have taken that out from my home game.
Thank you Paizo for allowing a socially progressive viewpoint to slip into your game world. I must admit that this thread in particular and the responses from James and Jessica (as well as other Paizo employees) led me to drop three bills on Paizo products this month. I am happy to support a company that supports social equality for some very important people in my life.
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Was anything about marriage stated in early D&D/AD&D? Because I think that Beckett might be mistaking quirky interpretation of Lawful Good (where prohibition against adultery is erroneously equated with prohibition against sex without marriage) for actual paladin code.
The only thing that immediatley comes to mind is a cleric spell called ceremony that appeared in 1st Edition AD&D's Unearthed Arcana. (My attempts to find a copy of that book here in the office have failed, alas, so I can't confirm what it says.)
But really, the further back in D&D's history you go, the less and less interested it is about things that aren't combat and dungeon exploring. It's really only as the hobby has matured that things like campaign settings and world development and the attendant stuff has become a bigger deal.
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The only thing that immediatley comes to mind is a cleric spell called ceremony that appeared in 1st Edition AD&D's Unearthed Arcana. (My attempts to find a copy of that book here in the office have failed, alas, so I can't confirm what it says.)
There are specific variants for different rites, and for marriage it states:
I think that's just about the limit of quoting for purposes and research and discussion. The whole text of the spell is findable out there if people wish to go searching.
Was anything about marriage stated in early D&D/AD&D? Because I think that Beckett might be mistaking quirky interpretation of Lawful Good (where prohibition against adultery is erroneously equated with prohibition against sex without marriage) for actual paladin code.The only thing that immediatley comes to mind is a cleric spell called ceremony that appeared in 1st Edition AD&D's Unearthed Arcana. (My attempts to find a copy of that book here in the office have failed, alas, so I can't confirm what it says.)
I have seen that book once or twice and it was long ago but I am 90% chance sure it didn't contained prohibition against sex without using this spell first. I think I'd rather remember that...
But really, the further back in D&D's history you go, the less and less interested it is about things that aren't combat and dungeon exploring. It's really only as the hobby has matured that things like campaign settings and world development and the attendant stuff has become a bigger deal.
You mean when M. A. R. Barker published first Tekumel game? ;)
The only thing that immediatley comes to mind is a cleric spell called ceremony that appeared in 1st Edition AD&D's Unearthed Arcana. (My attempts to find a copy of that book here in the office have failed, alas, so I can't confirm what it says.)But really, the further back in D&D's history you go, the less and less interested it is about things that aren't combat and dungeon exploring. It's really only as the hobby has matured that things like campaign settings and world development and the attendant stuff has become a bigger deal.
There was some older Dragon magazine issue stuff that postulated a paladin must be chaste and unmarried. But that never made it into any of the actual rules that I know of.
The marriage part of the ceremony spell says nothing about marrying a man and woman. It's a rite a 1st level cleric can perform as part of the ceremony spell.
Marriage has no tangible after-effect (i.e., it does not guarantee happiness or harmony), but it usually carries a moral or legal significance, not dissimilar in nature to the various rites of marriage which are performed in our real world.
And that's it. It opens the door to any marriage tradition, including any evolving traditions.
EDIT: Ninja'ed
I could see a same-sex couple of Erastil's Faith running an Orphanage or such...Think of the outrage it would caused among ignorants who fail to distinguish between homosexuals and pedophiles!
Oh my Deities! Thank You for that idea.
Some stuff about Erastil.
Word.
The misogyny of Erastil is something that has always bothered me, and I have taken that out from my home game.
Thank you Paizo for allowing a socially progressive viewpoint to slip into your game world. I must admit that this thread in particular and the responses from James and Jessica (as well as other Paizo employees) led me to drop three bills on Paizo products this month. I am happy to support a company that supports social equality for some very important people in my life.
Now, I like a little bit of wart on my deities. It gives them moral complexity. It also lays out the position that you can have a few backwards attitudes and still be good in the main. I think it was a ballsy position to lay out for a LG deity and I don't like the backpedaling on it. I thought it was every bit as bold as putting in homosexual characters in Sandpoint and having it not be a big deal.
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You know once again I have to give GIANT shout outs to the Paizo staff for not shying away from this topic. Giant kudos.
Though the adoption thing works as well.
Goblin babies are very cute, if I say so myself.
@thejeff: Rome. The only city in the world that has been confirmed to have both a Male and Female Prostitute* on every corner or such.
*They were actually free to get. You never had to pay for them unless you wanted something totally odd.
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Stuff about Erastil
THANK YOU. This makes me incredibly happy to hear. My Golarion has long had that element of Erastil's character removed, but I've felt so uncomfortable with it in a broader sense that I've never been able to consider playing a worshipper of Erastil in other games. Male or female.
Also, on the gay paladin topic, considering you can have paladins of Shelyn, the goddess possibly least likely to care whether your partner is male, female, intersex, another race, from another plane of existence, or a demigod, it tells me that there's absolutely no reason to restrict paladins based on sexuality.
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Re queer Paladins in medieval and renaissance literature...
Straightforwardly gay relationships are rare for obvious reasons. But homoerotic love is a major theme.
Amis et Amile, a major work, features two men whose love for each other is more significant than that to any woman (and love for women is described in negative terms). They are knights; the essential conflict is between their love for each other and their duty. Failing his duty to rescue his friend, one knight is cursed with leprosy (= falls as a Paladin) until they are reunited and are able to find a cure together.
Galehaut in the Prose Lancelot is clearly infatuated with Lancelot, whom he pines for as strongly as Lancelot does for Guenevere herself (in fact the loves are compared). Galehaut ultimately dies of love for the other knight, which breaks Lancelot's heart, as he would love his friend except for the prior claim the Queen had to his heart. Both Galehaut and Lancelot, as Round Table Knights, are clearly antecedents of the paladin class.
Britomart, the female knight in Spenser's Faerie Queen, is chiefly involved in rescuing damsels. Several times she shares a bed with the women, including Amoret, Glauce (who clearly is in love with her), and Malecasta (who is also in love with her, but is villainous).
Bradamante, Britomart's fore-runner, and the female knight of Orlando Innamorato and Orlando Furioso, is not queer in a modern sense, but she's clearly butch and better at being a paladin than most men. She woos and converts the African Prince Rinaldo from Islam (an inversion of the Saracen princess trope in medieval literature).
As a historical figure, we can mention Richard the Lion-hearted, who, for all his flaws, was certainly in legend a paladin-archetype (along with his foe, Saladin, who is, of course, not Christian).
All of these characters are among the most famous knights in medieval and renaissance literature, and their queer-tinged adventures and amours are no bar to them being considered great paladins. Courtly love, in fact, by inverting the patriarchal power structure, was "queer" from a medieval perspective.
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Now, I like a little bit of wart on my deities. It gives them moral complexity. It also lays out the position that you can have a few backwards attitudes and still be good in the main. I think it was a ballsy position to lay out for a LG deity and I don't like the backpedaling on it. I thought it was every bit as bold as putting in homosexual characters in Sandpoint and having it not be a big deal.
Some stuff about Erastil.
Word.
The misogyny of Erastil is something that has always bothered me, and I have taken that out from my home game.
Thank you Paizo for allowing a socially progressive viewpoint to slip into your game world. I must admit that this thread in particular and the responses from James and Jessica (as well as other Paizo employees) led me to drop three bills on Paizo products this month. I am happy to support a company that supports social equality for some very important people in my life.
Eh, I don't mind warts/blind spots, but personally, having a lawful good deity being into something as evil as misogyny is pretty hard to swallow. To me it's like saying that Sarenrae is actually pro-slavery (as in actively encouraging it), or that Iomedae actually instituted something like the Inquisition, or that Cayden Cailean dictated a ritual wherein his followers get drunk and beat up innocent strangers. I can see any of those things happening because of humans misinterpreting what a good god wants, but not as a characteristic/act of a good god itself.
(Also, I get that Erastil is supposed to be a traditionalist, but pairing that with misogyny seems to suggest that misogyny = traditional, and there is nothing to indicate that Golarion has ever had a tradition of viewing possessing two X chromosomes as a detriment.)
But that's my personal take. As with everything else, everyone's entitled to their own personal adjustments/interpretations.
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Jessica Price, I have no idea when you became a Paizo staffer, but your posts that I've read lately make me incredibly happy. You rock. :D
I think that Erastil's church would probably have a considerably large number of stuffy old dudes who claim that women should be in the kitchen because BIOTRUTHS and would refuse to believe that gay people shouldn't get married because SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE, at least compared to some of the other Good religions on Golarion. But these people would probably be of the LN variety in highly conservative sects and by no means the mainstream.
Courtly love, in fact, by inverting the patriarchal power structure, was "queer" from a medieval perspective.
And, as the rest of the post illustrates, it was wicked hawt!!
I'm glad to see I didn't miss any gay Charlemagnic paladins, but IIRC, Bradmante was wicked sexy in the Harold Shea tales, too.
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Jessica Price, I have no idea when you became a Paizo staffer, but your posts that I've read lately make me incredibly happy. You rock. :D
I think that Erastil's church would probably have a considerably large number of stuffy old dudes who claim that women should be in the kitchen because BIOTRUTHS and would refuse to believe that gay people shouldn't get married because SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE, at least compared to some of the other Good religions on Golarion. But these people would probably be of the LN variety in highly conservative sects and by no means the mainstream.
Yes, but considering things, they're as likely to believe on a local level that men should have harems, if one wants to use RW traditions as analogies.
And on the other hand, in parts of Ladakh and Tibet, traditional marriage consists of one woman with multiple brothers as her husbands.So tradition is a very granular thing.
I expect, if one were to generalize, is that Erastil believes one should have families, and that women are inherently valuable as the bearers of children, and hence should be protected. But that's a source of respect and admiration as much as it is a limit on their behavior.
Erastil respects people who take on roles that preserve culture and communities: teachers, protective uncles and aunts, grandparents, people that keep the village fed, keep the houses from falling down, keep the animals and the children alive, and pass on their love and wisdom to their successors. That can include a lot of parenting that isn't strictly with biological offspring, since parenting = teaching = love.
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Jessica Price, I have no idea when you became a Paizo staffer, but your posts that I've read lately make me incredibly happy. You rock. :D+1
Indeed, erudition is hawt.
In fact, most of you guys are pretty sexy.
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The only thing that immediatley comes to mind is a cleric spell called ceremony that appeared in 1st Edition AD&D's Unearthed Arcana. (My attempts to find a copy of that book here in the office have failed, alas, so I can't confirm what it says.)But really, the further back in D&D's history you go, the less and less interested it is about things that aren't combat and dungeon exploring. It's really only as the hobby has matured that things like campaign settings and world development and the attendant stuff has become a bigger deal.
There was some older Dragon magazine issue stuff that postulated a paladin must be chaste and unmarried. But that never made it into any of the actual rules that I know of.
The marriage part of the ceremony spell says nothing about marrying a man and woman. It's a rite a 1st level cleric can perform as part of the ceremony spell.
I'm recalling some general talk about "chastity" in the 2e Paladin's Handbook, but it might be a couple days before I get a chance to dig my copy out of whatever box it is stored in.
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Now, I like a little bit of wart on my deities. It gives them moral complexity. It also lays out the position that you can have a few backwards attitudes and still be good in the main. I think it was a ballsy position to lay out for a LG deity and I don't like the backpedaling on it. I thought it was every bit as bold as putting in homosexual characters in Sandpoint and having it not be a big deal.
Some stuff about Erastil.
Word.
The misogyny of Erastil is something that has always bothered me, and I have taken that out from my home game.
Thank you Paizo for allowing a socially progressive viewpoint to slip into your game world. I must admit that this thread in particular and the responses from James and Jessica (as well as other Paizo employees) led me to drop three bills on Paizo products this month. I am happy to support a company that supports social equality for some very important people in my life.
I just find it ironic as hell that in a conversation about being progressive and diverse some talk about removing things they find so uncomfortable, like traditional gender roles that helped make the human race survive...How dare some, including the women themselves, find it a positive thing to be mothers instead of warriors. Think about it for a bit guys, if most of the women decided not to have children how long do you think these races and societies would exist?
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I just find it ironic as hell that in a conversation about being progressive and diverse some talk about removing things they find so uncomfortable, like traditional gender roles that helped make the human race survive...How dare some, including the women themselves, find it a positive thing to be mothers instead of warriors. Think about it for a bit guys, if most of the women decided not to have children how long do you think these races and societies would exist?
Removing forcing people to conform to those gender roles against their will? I don't see the irony?
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I just find it ironic as hell that in a conversation about being progressive and diverse some talk about removing things they find so uncomfortable, like traditional gender roles that helped make the human race survive...How dare some, including the women themselves, find it a positive thing to be mothers instead of warriors. Think about it for a bit guys, if most of the women decided not to have children how long do you think these races and societies would exist?Removing forcing people to conform to those gender roles against their will? I don't see the irony?
I do not recall erastil ever forcing women to stay at home pregnant and all men working to support families.
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The people that keep calling the notion of promoting motherhood and families misogynistic and backwardThink about it for a bit guys, if most of the women decided not to have children how long do you think these races and societies would exist?Who here has espoused this view?
No, they're calling the notion that women MUST be mothers and CANNOT be warriors misogynistic and backward. Do you disagree with their this position?
Eh, I don't mind warts/blind spots, but personally, having a lawful good deity being into something as evil as misogyny is pretty hard to swallow. To me it's like saying that Sarenrae is actually pro-slavery (as in actively encouraging it), or that Iomedae actually instituted something like the Inquisition, or that Cayden Cailean dictated a ritual wherein his followers get drunk and beat up innocent strangers. I can see any of those things happening because of humans misinterpreting what a good god wants, but not as a characteristic/act of a good god itself.(Also, I get that Erastil is supposed to be a traditionalist, but pairing that with misogyny seems to suggest that misogyny = traditional, and there is nothing to indicate that Golarion has ever had a tradition of viewing possessing two X chromosomes as a detriment.)
But that's my personal take. As with everything else, everyone's entitled to their own personal adjustments/interpretations.
A different and generally subordinate gender role for women, among free and good-willed people, is pretty much worlds away from slavery, an Inquisition, and beating up stranger. Isn't that as bad a comparison as comparing homosexuality to bestiality? They're not slippery slopes, one leading inexorably to the other.
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No, they're calling the notion that women MUST be mothers and CANNOT be warriors misogynistic and backward. Do you disagree with their ACTUAL position?The people that keep calling the notion of promoting motherhood and families misogynistic and backwardThink about it for a bit guys, if most of the women decided not to have children how long do you think these races and societies would exist?Who here has espoused this view?
Erastil is about smooth successful society. men working and women raising children is the easiest way to do that traditionally so that is what he wants. doesn't make it forced. He also doessn't want men shirking their role and running off, does that making him anti male then?
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Please don't close this thread, I'm enjoying the conversation.
Andrew: Going by your last two posts in the 11 minutes, you need to walk away from the screen and just chill for a bit.
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Erastil is about smooth successful society. men working and women raising children is the easiest way to do that traditionally so that is what he wants. doesn't make it forced. He also doessn't want men shirking their role and running off, does that making him anti male then?No, they're calling the notion that women MUST be mothers and CANNOT be warriors misogynistic and backward. Do you disagree with their ACTUAL position?The people that keep calling the notion of promoting motherhood and families misogynistic and backwardThink about it for a bit guys, if most of the women decided not to have children how long do you think these races and societies would exist?Who here has espoused this view?
Yes, that is his position. And theirs. Do you disagree with it? Do you believe that women MUST be mothers and not warriors?
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TOZ, do not engage; sisterhood is beautiful! :P
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Why is 'men working and women raising children' the easiest way to do things 'traditionally'?
Why can't it be men raising children and women working? Or one man raising a child and another man working to support them?
This is our issue. Not the "traditional" values of supporting a family. Just that the "traditional" values also happen to equate to "women are lesser beings and cannot do serious work outside of the home".
Yes, that is his position. And theirs. Do you disagree with it? Do you believe that women MUST be mothers and not warriors?
I don't think that's Erastil's position. He discourages adventurers in general and promotes parenthood and marriage for everyone, regardless of sex. It's also clear, from his relationship with the female deities that he's also understanding of their differences even if he still thinks they'd benefit from marriage and family.
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Why can't it be men raising children and women working? Or one man raising a child and another man working to support them?
Because 'traditionally' men did heavy labor that they were better suited to and women did the 'lighter' labor of raising the family.
Now, when you have technology/magic that allows the women to do the hard labor as well as the men, you don't need those traditional divisions anymore.
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I don't think that's Erastil's position. He discourages adventurers in general and promotes parenthood and marriage for everyone, regardless of sex.
But he doesn't command it. Strongly advise it, but he doesn't forbid women taking up traditionally 'male' roles. And that's the difference.
(I may be off in my understanding of his teachings, so please do enlighten me if I am.)
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Why can't it be men raising children and women working? Or one man raising a child and another man working to support them?Because 'traditionally' men did heavy labor that they were better suited to and women did the 'lighter' labor of raising the family.
Now, when you have technology/magic that allows the women to do the hard labor as well as the men, you don't need those traditional divisions anymore.
Well yeah, I'm kind of talking in context to Erastilian values. Although I kind of believe that women are more than capable of doing all those traditional "male" things it's sort of going more off-topic than this already is... I'll leave my feminist cap off for now.
I just don't believe Erastil needs to push those kinds of ideas when a woman is equally likely as a man to have an 18 Str or able to cast enlarge person. :)
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Why can't it be men raising children and women working? Or one man raising a child and another man working to support them?Because 'traditionally' men did heavy labor that they were better suited to and women did the 'lighter' labor of raising the family.
Now, when you have technology/magic that allows the women to do the hard labor as well as the men, you don't need those traditional divisions anymore.
Well yeah, I'm kind of talking in context to Erastilian values. Although I kind of believe that women are more than capable of doing all those traditional "male" things it's sort of going more off-topic than this already is... I'll leave my feminist cap off for now.
I just don't believe Erastil needs to push those kinds of ideas when a woman is equally likely as a man to have an 18 Str or able to cast enlarge person. :)
I also think that being able to defend one's self (and one's children/partners) is something he would be all for. For men and women.
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Golarion is not Earth, and as such, the "traditions" of how things have "always been" are whatever we decide they are (and whatever a GM decides in her own game). Just as it's nice to imagine a world in which there are dragons and magic and sword-wielding heroes fighting undead monsters with plans for world domination, it's also refreshing (for those of us who feel these things are important) to imagine a world in which some of the less-progressive elements of culture, like patriarchy, closed-mindedness, and intolerance, don't exist, or exist in ways that are better than they are in our real world. Why limit the crafting of a whole new reality to just magic and dragons and undead? If you could create any fantasy world you could come up with, why not use that as a chance to fix some of the stuff that you'd like to see gone in the real world?
Why is 'men working and women raising children' the easiest way to do things 'traditionally'?
Why can't it be men raising children and women working? Or one man raising a child and another man working to support them?
This is our issue. Not the "traditional" values of supporting a family. Just that the "traditional" values also happen to equate to "women are lesser beings and cannot do serious work outside of the home".
Among other things, men don't lactate while children have a long period of substantial helplessness when they benefit from breastfeeding. Also, women maintaining the home rather than working afield tends to put fewer pregnancies at risk of the dangers that are found afield. Those are factors that differentiate the gender roles of men and women and I can't see how they're unreasonable.
There is, however, no inherent reason either gender role should be politically subordinate to the other. But, if you do believe that there needs to be a final authority in the household, it makes sense to have a decision rule to determine which one should be the authority. I suspect most human cultures have given that authority to men as an outgrowth their outward-oriented activity and contact, but it's easy enough to postulate a society that favors political authority for females based on other priorities, such as the authority they wield via child rearing translating to wielding political authority society-wide.
What I would ask you is: If Golarion had a female deity who favored society ordered around matriarchal lines, would that add texture to the setting? Or would you oppose her and her misandry as much as you oppose Erastil?
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Golarion is not Earth, and as such, the "traditions" of how things have "always been" are whatever we decide they are (and whatever a GM decides in her own game). Just as it's nice to imagine a world in which there are dragons and magic and sword-wielding heroes fighting undead monsters with plans for world domination, it's also refreshing (for those of us who feel these things are important) to imagine a world in which some of the less-progressive elements of culture, like patriarchy, closed-mindedness, and intolerance, don't exist, or exist in ways that are better than they are in our real world. Why limit the crafting of a whole new reality to just magic and dragons and undead? If you could create any fantasy world you could come up with, why not use that as a chance to fix some of the stuff that you'd like to see gone in the real world?
+1
It's a fantasy/SF tradition.
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Now, I like a little bit of wart on my deities. It gives them moral complexity. It also lays out the position that you can have a few backwards attitudes and still be good in the main. I think it was a ballsy position to lay out for a LG deity and I don't like the backpedaling on it. I thought it was every bit as bold as putting in homosexual characters in Sandpoint and having it not be a big deal.
Ditto. I like that Erastil can be good and lawful without 100% agreeing with every position that I hold. It's more thought provoking (and conversation provoking!) that way.
I never found Erastil's attitudes as misogynist. He seems to disapprove more of Cayden Cailean or Abadar then Iomedae, Shelyn, or Desna.
Should Sarenrae get married? Yes. She'd make an amazing wife mother.
Should Cayden Cailean get married? Yes. He needs to settle down and grow up.
Seems more misandrist than misogynist to me, though honestly I just think he views marriage and children as more important than, for lack of a better term, career. I know of lot of men like that. I know a lot of women like that. It's cool. Just like it's cool for some people to choose career over marriage/family and others to split the difference. Stop bashing on my man!
Also, personal request to James, or someone else, can we get the poor guy(?) a wife? As a/the champion of marriage, along with Shelyn and surprisingly the Lissala, he ought to have one. Fandarra perhaps? So far the only married deities I can think of are Skode and Tjasse. Kudos on creating an evil diety that favors marriage. Though I confess that reading through her description she struck me as more Abadar/Irori than Asmodeus.
Back on topic, of all the classes, paladins seem to have the highest ration of homosexual to heterosexual characters. Could be wrong. Thoughts? I remember James mentioning that the first, the guy in sandpoint, the Abadarian dude, was deliberate. How do you show non-heterosexuality is okay? Make a paladin gay.
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Among other things, men don't lactate while children have a long period of substantial helplessness when they benefit from breastfeeding. Also, women maintaining the home rather than working afield tends to put fewer pregnancies at risk of the dangers that are found afield. Those are factors that differentiate the gender roles of men and women and I can't see how they're unreasonable.
There is, however, no inherent reason either gender role should be politically subordinate to the other. But, if you do believe that there needs to be a final authority in the household, it makes sense to have a decision rule to determine which one should be the authority. I suspect most human cultures have given that authority to men as an outgrowth their outward-oriented activity and contact, but it's easy enough to postulate a society that favors political authority for females based on other priorities, such as the authority they wield via child rearing translating to wielding political authority society-wide.
What I would ask you is: If Golarion had a female deity who favored society ordered around matriarchal lines, would that add texture to the setting? Or would you oppose her and her misandry as much as you oppose Erastil?
I see a lot of biotruths justifying the patriarchy here.
2. So for... let's say 5 months of a pregnancy the woman should do her best to avoid heavy labour. Fair enough. That's what Erastil is all about, I think: supporting your partner through the good times and bad. When your wife is indisposed from her pregnancy you pick up the slack and help her out with things. That doesn't justify her being the home-maker by default for the rest of her life just because she's equipped with ovaries.
3. I think that a lot of cultures defaulted to men in charge because of violence and physical prowess, because that's how we solved our issues in the ye olde times. Then it became entrenched in cultural rituals and religions that were designed to reduce violence by giving us something to believe in and something to focus our hate on (the unclean, the impure, the sinners...)
4. Misandry don't real. But I would have a problem if that was a Good aligned deity, yes. You'll note that the drow are Chaotic Evil and worship demonkind, yes?
EDIT: Anyway this is totally off-topic. Please can we return to talking about queer folk in Golarion again?