I have at least one player that is absolutely in love with this skill. He is himself a linguistics grad student, and he loves the idea that this represents not just learning a language, but learning about languages.
The extra languages for skill points and decipher script all work pretty well, but the Forgery abilities still seem a little strange. I know that forgery was little taken before, and this was an attempt to fold that skill into another, more useful skill, and I know that D&D skills don't always make sense, and I'm not arguing that they shouldn't serve the game first and reality a far distant second, but I'm still having a hard time with this.
In fact, I think making an official document or even faking someone's handwriting would be more of a Craft skill, such as "craft: books and documents" or something like that. I've seen the Knowledge: Law skill pop up from time to time without a real explanation, and this might be a good use for that.
Your knowledge: law check when making a forgery would be opposed by someone else making a knowledge: law check to find flaws in an official document. For something like forging a signature, it would just be a simple perception check versus "Craft: written object" or whatever, with a copy of the original handwriting in evidence.
Just a thought. I know that my friend couldn't make me a fake driver's license no matter how many languages he can figure out.
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I have at least one player that is absolutely in love with this skill. He is himself a linguistics grad student, and he loves the idea that this represents not just learning a language, but learning about languages.
The extra languages for skill points and decipher script all work pretty well, but the Forgery abilities still seem a little strange. I know that forgery was little taken before, and this was an attempt to fold that skill into another, more useful skill, and I know that D&D skills don't always make sense, and I'm not arguing that they shouldn't serve the game first and reality a far distant second, but I'm still having a hard time with this.
In fact, I think making an official document or even faking someone's handwriting would be more of a Craft skill, such as "craft: books and documents" or something like that. I've seen the Knowledge: Law skill pop up from time to time without a real explanation, and this might be a good use for that.
Your knowledge: law check when making a forgery would be opposed by someone else making a knowledge: law check to find flaws in an official document. For something like forging a signature, it would just be a simple perception check versus "Craft: written object" or whatever, with a copy of the original handwriting in evidence.
Just a thought. I know that my friend couldn't make me a fake driver's license no matter how many languages he can figure out.
In True20 (Expert's Handbook, I think?) Forgery is tweaked into Craft (Forgery), which is one logical way to handle it. I definitely do not intend to keep it as part of Linguistics either (like you said, it's weird).
Craft (Calligraphy) could probably be merged into Linguistics, since it's not really about "producing" anything (I think it's a Craft category just because Painting is...). Maybe we should have a new skill called 'Art' (with all those Craft (Pencil Drawing) merged into it) in PF?
As for Knowledge (Law), I think that's already included in Knowledge (Local), so I don't see a reason for this skill (and laws, in most settings, vary a great deal from place to place).
There are two good solutions for Forgery (Documents):
1) Put it into Linguistics, since it's all about words and the right formulations
2) Deception, since it's all about fooling people (but you have to know the language).
Either way works fine with me.
If it's about forging a specific item (like a painting, an ancient weapon, or a false artifact) it would be the specific craft skill.
As for Knowledge (Law), I think that's already included...
Good point.
There are two good solutions for Forgery (Documents):
1) Put it into Linguistics, since it's all about words and the right formulations
2) Deception, since it's all about fooling people (but you have to know the language).
Either way works fine with me.
If it's about forging a specific item (like a painting, an ancient weapon, or a false artifact) it would be the specific craft skill.
See, when I think of Forgery, I think of things like trade agreements, or documents of lineage, or items like an adventurer's charter in Cormyr. You would have to know about local customs, laws, seals, and officials to make a really convincing one of the above, and very little of that has to do with knowing anything about language in general.
Craft(Forgery) or Profession(Forger)?
Craft (Forgery), as the skill produces something rather than doing something.
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Craft(Forgery) or Profession(Forger)?Craft (Forgery), as the skill produces something rather than doing something.
I agree. Yet it wouldn't be far-fetched to include it in Deception (I'm probably going to use it instead of Bluff), either, but that would lead to Deception (or Bluff) becoming too "useful" in the long run. And it would also be a bit weird if all rogues would be professional forgers.
I'm still considering using sub-skills (or "specializations") for all skills (e.g. 'Acrobatics (Tumble)'), but I'm not sure how it would work now that there are fewer ranks available to the characters.
I'd hope that Profession and Craft would be merged into a new skill called Trade to eliminate the whole "Is this a Craft or Profession?"-dilemma. Also, some of the Craft skills would be more logical if they were WIS-based skills instead of INT (e.g. Blacksmith).
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Good point.
As for Knowledge (Law), I think that's already included...
When 3E came out, a lot of designers liked to come up with very specific Knowledge skills in 3E, although those skills already were part of another Knowledge (e.g. Knowledge (Undead) which is already included in Knowledge (Religion)). :)
Craft (Calligraphy) could probably be merged into Linguistics, since it's not really about "producing" anything (I think it's a Craft category just because Painting is...). Maybe we should have a new skill called 'Art' (with all those Craft (Pencil Drawing) merged into it) in PF?
If you can sketch competently, then painting and calligraphy are a logical extension, not separate skills. I'm trying out a Craft (Fine Art) skill, with Forgery included therein. It's all about making the forged item -- be it an ersatz "old master's" painting, a bogus $20 bill, or a phony writ of sale -- look correct, which involves artistry more than it involves stringing together the phrasing; to forge a legal document, the artist needs a sample of the legal jargon, or else needs the Knowledge (Law) skill.