The only thing about this skill system idea that leaves me curious is how it will affect prestige classes with skill requirements. Under the 3.5e system, its based on number of ranks in a skill which could be a way of preventing characters from picking up a level in a class before a minimum level... Shadowdancer, for example, required 10 ranks of Hide (as well as other prerequisites) meaning that your character would have to have advanced at least 7 levels as something else before taking a level of Shadowdancer.
If skill prerequisites are simplified to just having picked a skill, players will be able to start taking prestige class levels much sooner than before.
Director of Brand Strategy
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The only thing about this skill system idea that leaves me curious is how it will affect prestige classes with skill requirements. Under the 3.5e system, its based on number of ranks in a skill which could be a way of preventing characters from picking up a level in a class before a minimum level... Shadowdancer, for example, required 10 ranks of Hide (as well as other prerequisites) meaning that your character would have to have advanced at least 7 levels as something else before taking a level of Shadowdancer.
If skill prerequisites are simplified to just having picked a skill, players will be able to start taking prestige class levels much sooner than before.
With the new system, a character can only have the same number of ranks as their character level, since the extra 3 points come as a freebe for takign a class-skill. Thus, a Shadowdancer would have 7 ranks in Hide (or Stealth, rather) at 7th level. Same as in standard 3.5.
With the new system, a character can only have the same number of ranks as their character level, since the extra 3 points come as a freebe for takign a class-skill. Thus, a Shadowdancer would have 7 ranks in Hide (or Stealth, rather) at 7th level. Same as in standard 3.5.
Well actually he could have 10 ranks at 7th level in 3.5.
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Not so.
First of all, the Pathinder has a side bar stating:
Designer Notes: Prestige Skills
With the changes to the skill system, the requirements
to enter various prestige classes must change as well.
Whenever a prestige class calls for a number of skill ranks,
you can qualify for the prestige class if you meet that number
of ranks –3 if you also have the skill as a class skill. If you do
not have the skill as a class skill, you must possess double
that number of ranks. For example, a 3.5 prestige class might
require eight ranks in Move Silently. In the Pathfinder RPG, it
instead requires five ranks of the Stealth skill if Stealth is one
of your class skills and ten ranks if it is not.
Let's say a prestige class in 3.5 requires 8 ranks in Spellcraft. If that is the case, you need 5 ranks if the skill is a class skill for you (giving you an effective rank bonus of +8). If the class is not a class skill for any or your classes, you must have 10 ranks in it (effective reank bonus of +10). This is clearly done to make things more like 3.5 - even though you have more ranks in Pathfinder Alpha 2, you can't qualify for the prestige class earlier because of the fact.
I personally feel that this is unnecessary and needlessly complicated. The only people that will understand this requirement are the ones who already played 3.5. Basically, it is going to be an obscure rule, easily overlooked and often ignored - so why include it anyway.
In 3.5 to prevent anyone from taking a class early, even if the class had 'cross-class' requirements, it usually had a 'class skill' requirement or something else that made it impossible to qualify earlier.
For example, the Gnome Giant Slayer (Complete Warrior) has a skill requirement of 3 ranks in Escape Artist and 3 ranks in Tumble. A rogue could qualify at 1st level for those skills, but a fighter could not qualify until 6th level (cross-class). The prestige class also requires a BAB of +5 - even with earlier access to the 3 ranks of Tumble (fighter 3rd under Pathfinder Alpha 2 without the sidebar) the player can't take it early. The only thing is that he wouldn't have to continue buying ranks in Tumble and Escape Artist (with the sidebar he'd have to buy 6 ranks).
I simply cannot find a Prestige Class that doesn't have at least 1 skill with a minimum of 8 ranks or a minimum BAB. Even the ones that have UMPTEEN BILLION feats usually have a requirement of skill ranks (8 minimum) or a BAB (+5 minimum) to make sure the prestige class can't be taken before 6th level.
Since Pathfinder is giving more feats, some prestige classes will be easier to qualify for than in 3.5 - but the special rule on skills is unnecssary since there was no danger of people qualifying for the prestige class earlier than 5th level (allowing them to take it at 6th) anyway.
Worse - if you take the skills as cross-class you have to be better than someone who doesn't. Take the gnome giant slayer. He must put only 1 rank into both skills (+4 bonus) to qualify, while the fighter must take 6 ranks (+6 bonus). Not only does he spend more ranks, but he has a +2 advantage - the required ranks should be the same for everyone taking the class.
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Guys,
I am going to admit that for the time being this is a band-aid to allow pclasses to be used as written. I have not tackled pclasses yet, and when I do, I hope to deal with this issue directly.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I know it is earlier on the coast than here in Iowa, but I want to take a moment to thank you, Jason, for everything so far.
As easy as it is to be critical trying to pick apart the rules, I love the fact that you are clearly listening to us. The feeling that we're really contributing (even if sometimes we get too far off the track) is a powerful incentive.
I know that Pathfinder will be your baby, but it will be sort of like my experience with my baby born in July 07. At the time of delivery there were more than 12 people in the room. There was my wife, myself, the midwife that was overseeing the delivery, the nurse that had been assisting, the doctor that was required to 'take over', her 'boss' or something that watched, the other 'intern' or whatever - and then at leats 6 other medical school students - and a couple other nurses that brought in extra equipment.
It was crazy, it was scary, but it all worked out in the end. And while I couldn't tell you who those people were, (and most of them didn't really contribute anything) it was kind of reassuring to know that I had a whole lot of medical knowledge in case things went badly.
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Guys,
I am going to admit that for the time being this is a band-aid to allow pclasses to be used as written. I have not tackled pclasses yet, and when I do, I hope to deal with this issue directly.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Perhaps a simpler way, considering that some skills are now combined is to simply leave the requirements "as is" - which would integrate the smaller set of skills. I.e., people will be spending more ranks on fewer skills . . . particularly since cross-class skills no longer cost 2 ranks for 1 point.
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Perhaps a simpler way, considering that some skills are now combined is to simply leave the requirements "as is" - which would integrate the smaller set of skills. I.e., people will be spending more ranks on fewer skills . . . particularly since cross-class skills no longer cost 2 ranks for 1 point.
At worst, this would mean that you couldn't take PrCs until 3 levels later in Pathfinder than in 3.5, though maybe less than that for reasons Saurstalk mentions. How bad would that be? I don't play many PrCs so I'm genuinely asking. Would people hate that? AND, would that screw up backward compatibility because NPC would have too many levels in PrCs because they got into them too soon?
Perhaps a simpler way, considering that some skills are now combined is to simply leave the requirements "as is" - which would integrate the smaller set of skills. I.e., people will be spending more ranks on fewer skills . . . particularly since cross-class skills no longer cost 2 ranks for 1 point.At worst, this would mean that you couldn't take PrCs until 3 levels later in Pathfinder than in 3.5, though maybe less than that for reasons Saurstalk mentions. How bad would that be? I don't play many PrCs so I'm genuinely asking. Would people hate that? AND, would that screw up backward compatibility because NPC would have too many levels in PrCs because they got into them too soon?
Yes, and yes.
Backwards compatability is a very complicated point for skills, and it's entirely because of prestige classes. (And some feats.) Skills have been the universal prerequisite of character level; a requirement of +3 BAB might mean anything depending on your class(es). A requirement of Knowledge (Arcana) 8 ranks means level 5. No ifs, ands, or buts about it; you cannot get into that class before level 5. And it's something that you'll either have at max ranks or none at all; if Knowledge (Arcana) isn't a class skill for you, then that isn't a class that would offer you any benefits.
So that would absolutely push up the level requirements for all classes by three, and in some cases that would be disasterous. A lot of classes just have 8 rank requirements because the common wisdom is that you can't take a prestige class before level 6, but there's some very elegant impelementations of this. The two examples that spring to mind are the Master Specialist from Complete Mage, which can very deliberately be accessed starting at level four; it's a strong class in its own right, but it also serves as a bump for specialist wizards, who can pick up two levels of cool new stuff before taking whatever prestige class they were going to take. Second, there are some ten-level classes (I belive Abjurant Champion is one of them, but don't quote me on that) which have skill requirements of 13 ranks. The impact of this, of course, is that you cannot get the tenth level of that class before character level 20, and the whole class (and that tenth level particularly) are scaled appropriately. The problem, of course, is that many groups (sensibly) don't advance into epic level territory, which would mean that a lot of classes would have three levels lopped off (in addition to throwing off the clever balance where you get something awesome at level 20.)
I'm not fully delighted with the PrC cross-class stuff, but a Couple points:
1. You won't have to be *higher* level to take a prestige class with a cross-class skill than in 3.5. Actually 3 levels earlier, about always.
2. Gnome Giant Slayer - pre-req's are 3 ranks. Class skill prereq would be *0* ranks (pre-req -3). Cross-class skill prereq is twice that or... 0 ranks. Not a good corner case example to be discussing this with.
3. Take an 8 rank prereq. 3.5 Cross-class that would be 16 points, or 13th level minimum. PF cross-class you'd need (8-3)*2 = 10 ranks, or 10th level minimum.
It is a little odd, but the system isn't hurting the options.
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Whenever a prestige class calls for a number of skill ranks...If you do
not have the skill as a class skill, you must possess double that number of ranks.
I read that to mean that if a prestige class has an 8 rank requirement, if none of your classes have that as a class skill, you must have 16 ranks, not 8-3x2=10.
In order to have 8 ranks in 3.5 with a skill as a cross-class for all classes, you must be 13th level (13+3/2). This means that in the rare situation you don't have a required skill as a class skill for any class, you must take it 3 levels later than in 3.5 for Pathfinder Alpha. If you have it as a class-skill for at least 1 class, you can't take it any earlier.
The Gnome Giant-Slayer was an example to show that even a class that requires fewer than 8 ranks requires a BAB that makes it impossible to qualify for before 5th level (taking the first level of the PrC at 6th).
If a Prestige Class has a requirement of 8 ranks, under the Pathfinder Alpha system you will finish qualifying at 5th (5 ranks +3 bonus) just as in 3.5. If it is a cross-class skill for all of your classes, you will need to be 16th level (8x2=16), instead of 13th level in 3.5 (max ranks = 13+3/2).
Of course, it is being changed, so I'm not too worried. I'm happy to have the Alpha a little sooner rather than have this set up perfectly two weeks later.
Remember, there are cases where 3.5 prestige classes assume characters who take it as a cross-class skill -- for example, blackguard's Hide 5.
(Okay, rangers have it as a class skill, but your basic fighter/blackguard, paladin/blackguard, or barbarian/blackguard will be buying it with cross-class ranks in 3.5., and getting into the class only one level later than the ranger.)