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Respectfully, I disagree.
The whole point of Chapter 11 bankruptcy is for a reogranization of debts and continuation of business, as opposed to a Chapter 7 liquidation and termination. What happens before and after the bankruptcy petition is filed are two separate matters only connected by the fact that post-petition earnings are supposed to be applied to pre-petition debts according to a distribution plan. It is not uncommon for companies to continue doing business with a Chap 11 debtor, admittedly on a stricter payment basis, but the relationship continues nonetheless.
I have never been to a convention before, so my knowledge of that industry is less than complete, For people who are knowledgeable in the area, I would like to ask who pays whom for attendance at conventions? If GenCon pays WoTC then it would make sense not to attend if you're worried about being paid. If its WoTC who pays GenCon, then they have no immediately obvious reason to avoid the convention as GenCon's asset (space and time at the convention) are not diminished.
As for the bad form, WoTC has demonstrated a "it's good for us and legal so we'll do it" mentality before regardless of whether actions might be perceived as bad form. Truthgully, I suspect that they are using the bankruptcy as an excuse to avoid the convention. As others have already pointed out, their big ticket item, 4th edition, will have already debuted.
WotC would pay Gen Con for space at the convention.
Gen would be paying the city of Indianopolis for use of the convention center.If a stricter method of doing business is expected, such as cash up front, and if you expect from the general Chapter 11 filing that Gen Con has cash flow, or at least internal cash transfer, issues, then you would have to be concerned that no matter how much companies put up front, Gen Con may not be able to pay for the convention center use, or some other costs.
You might then have to be concerned about whether Gen Con would actually be refunding your money, or whether they might not have locked it up paying for something else they cannot get refunded so they are unable to refund your money.
As for 4E previewing, yes and no.
The books will be released, but one of the big marketing surges, the start of the RPGA Living Forgotten Realms Campaign, was scheduled for Gen Con. Skipping that is not a minor matter.
As others have already pointed out, their big ticket item, 4th edition, will have already debuted.
That doesn't invalidate the value of GenCon.
This is just a dumb move -- my opinion, but it's a fairly informed one. GenCon is exposure that nothing else approaches.
I can only suspect WotC is answering to very short-sighted beancounters that don't see the value of advertising, meeting deadlines, playing nice with publishers, decent websites, print magazines, or maintaining long-time standards on Dungeon and Dragon. IMHO.
Or they're just stupid. Take your pick.
As others have already pointed out, their big ticket item, 4th edition, will have already debuted.That doesn't invalidate the value of GenCon.
This is just a dumb move -- my opinion, but it's a fairly informed one. GenCon is exposure that nothing else approaches.
I can only suspect WotC is answering to very short-sighted beancounters that don't see the value of advertising, meeting deadlines, playing nice with publishers, decent websites, print magazines, or maintaining long-time standards on Dungeon and Dragon. IMHO.
Or they're just stupid. Take your pick.
There was a time not so long ago that I would have found the idea that WOTC might skip Gencon absolutely absurd, but lately I find I can't just can't assume that WOTC will make reasonable decisions.
I plan to play both Pathfinder RPG and Living FR games at Gencon; with any luck, this is much ado about nothing, they will be there, and I can try both. If not, my choice of organized play campaign just got a whole lot easier...
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WotC would pay Gen Con for space at the convention.
Gen would be paying the city of Indianopolis for use of the convention center.
SW thanks for clearing that up for me. That's what I thought happened, but I guess because of studying the bankruptcy process this semester I couldn't wrap my mind around how it would prevent a company not involved in the bankruptcy from engaging in business with the debtor. So when I saw people suggesting that was the reason WoTC didn't want to go, it confused the issue for me.
If a stricter method of doing business is expected, such as cash up front, and if you expect from the general Chapter 11 filing that Gen Con has cash flow, or at least internal cash transfer, issues, then you would have to be concerned that no matter how much companies put up front, Gen Con may not be able to pay for the convention center use, or some other costs.
You might then have to be concerned about whether Gen Con would actually be refunding your money, or whether they might not have locked it up paying for something else they cannot get refunded so they are unable to refund your money.
The thing about a reorganization plan for Chapter 11 is that you're restructuring the debt (and in some cases reducing it) so that the debtor CAN keep doing business. Just because a company has declared bankruptcy does not mean that it has no cash flow, it just means that the company has gotten itself into a debt/asset ratio where it could not meet its debts as they came due. This often comes about when assets decline in value or are destroyed.
As this applies to GenCon, the pre-bankruptcy debtors would get the profits under the reorganization plan AFTER administrative expenses are paid. Remember the whole plan would be aimed at paying off as much the debt as legally possible while continuing business. If you can't continue business because your current business partners will not accept your credit/payments, then you cannot genereate additional value for your pre-petition creditors. In the event that the Con did fail this year, WoTC and other current debtors would get their money back first, the pre-bankruptcy debtors would have to wait for the plan payments or get the bankruptcy converted in Chap 7 and liquidate GenCon itself before they saw any money.
In otherwords (that actually make sense), post-bankruptcy debts get paid first (including refunds I would assume) before pre-bankruptcy debts would.
As for 4E previewing, yes and no.
The books will be released, but one of the big marketing surges, the start of the RPGA Living Forgotten Realms Campaign, was scheduled for Gen Con. Skipping that is not a minor matter.
You're probably right, what I said about it before came out completely wrong (my fault). I guess what I was trying to suggest is that there is some other reason than concern for GenCon's lack of cash flow for skipping out on GenCon itself. I apologize for coming across so strongly on those last two sentences of my previous post.
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That doesn't invalidate the value of GenCon.
This is just a dumb move -- my opinion, but it's a fairly informed one. GenCon is exposure that nothing else approaches.
I can only suspect WotC is answering to very short-sighted beancounters that don't see the value of advertising, meeting deadlines, playing nice with publishers, decent websites, print magazines, or maintaining long-time standards on Dungeon and Dragon. IMHO.
Or they're just stupid. Take your pick.
I never said that GenCon's value was invalidated. Personally I do think that it retains a great value, regardless of when 4E is released. What I was trying to get at (and failing miserably) was that there must be some other reason we're not aware of for not attending GenCon. I do not believe that the fact a company is being reorganized under Chapter 11 would stop a company interested in using the venue for its business.
I never said that GenCon's value was invalidated. Personally I do think that it retains a great value, regardless of when 4E is released. What I was trying to get at (and failing miserably) was that there must be some other reason we're not aware of for not attending GenCon. I do not believe that the fact a company is being reorganized under Chapter 11 would stop a company interested in using the venue for its business.
I misinterpreted your meaning -- sorry.
And while I would normally believe the real reason is simply unknown to us, I have become increasingly convinced that WotC is simply making bad decisions, one after another.
You've actually touched on one -- I agree with you that Chapter 11 is unlikely to stop a company from attending GenCon. That suggests WotC is being less than honest in their statements to customers, and obviously so.
I have always loved WotC and their products. I admire the job they seem to have done on 4/e (though I probably won't buy it). But I think the non-design side of their business has, for several months, been marked by repeated examples of ill-considered decisions.
I think GenCon is just another example.
Regards,
and sorry again about my misunderstanding :)
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I never said that GenCon's value was invalidated. Personally I do think that it retains a great value, regardless of when 4E is released. What I was trying to get at (and failing miserably) was that there must be some other reason we're not aware of for not attending GenCon. I do not believe that the fact a company is being reorganized under Chapter 11 would stop a company interested in using the venue for its business.
It depends where you place the odds on the company emerging from Chapter 11. WotC may be ahead of pre-bankruptcy creditors, but it doesn't matter where you are in the line if the entity fails to emerge from Chapter 11 and pays pennies on the dollars to its post-bankruptcy creditors.
Which is not to say that WotC may not have other reasons, as mentioned in my earlier posts. I just find the Lucasfilms conspiracy to be extremely improbable. If you have a debtor teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, the last thing you do is push them over the edge.
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I think I figured out the way WotC would attend GenCon...
If it was an online format... Gen.Com!
If Wizards can help promote and support the development of game stores in the same way games workshop has this will only be a good thing for D&D as a hobby, as long as they support all role-playing games and don't hedge out others in favor of 4e.
The same way GW has??? WHAT??? Games Workshop has decidedly tried to destroy their product in Game Stores and Online stores. It's the reason they started opening their own stores. The stores that do carry GW stuff have to order huge quantities to get any decent discounts and basically pushes GW stuff out of the inventory for smaller/start-up shops.
I think I figured out the way WotC would attend GenCon...If it was an online format... Gen.Com!
The same way GW has??? WHAT??? Games Workshop has decidedly tried to destroy their product in Game Stores and Online stores. It's the reason they started opening their own stores. The stores that do carry GW stuff have to order huge quantities to get any decent discounts and basically pushes GW stuff out of the inventory for smaller/start-up shops.If Wizards can help promote and support the development of game stores in the same way games workshop has this will only be a good thing for D&D as a hobby, as long as they support all role-playing games and don't hedge out others in favor of 4e.
It's incredible how fast people forget what GW has done to a whole role playing community in the UK. They still try to do the same here in germany and as far as I know also in the US - so: Stop Buying GW if you want to support the hobby!
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SW thanks for clearing that up for me. That's what I thought happened, but I guess because of studying the bankruptcy process this semester I couldn't wrap my mind around how it would prevent a company not involved in the bankruptcy from engaging in business with the debtor. So when I saw people suggesting that was the reason WoTC didn't want to go, it confused the issue for me.
Of course that is the easy part of the equation, as you note with the following:
major snippage
In otherwords (that actually make sense), post-bankruptcy debts get paid first (including refunds I would assume) before pre-bankruptcy debts would.
Would you believe I had a friend who is an accountant explain all of that to me the other night?
The thing is, that just makes the whole question of why WotC is not showing up seem even curiouser.
You're probably right, what I said about it before came out completely wrong (my fault). I guess what I was trying to suggest is that there is some other reason than concern for GenCon's lack of cash flow for skipping out on GenCon itself. I apologize for coming across so strongly on those last two sentences of my previous post.
That is my whole question as well.
The only possible risk I can figure is a total default by Gen Con cancelling the convention after they have packed everything up and cannot get plane tickets refunded or something. And that would seem to be a minor concern next to having LFR kick off properly.So then why are they not showing up?
The link below is to the organisers of GenconUK, Horsemenevents.
http://www.consupport.com/forum/ topic.asp? TOPIC_ID= 1068
Cannot seem to linkify?
Cheers
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LinkifiedThe link below is to the organisers of GenconUK, Horsemenevents.
http://www.consupport.com/forum/ topic.asp? TOPIC_ID= 1068
Cannot seem to linkify?
Cheers
Merci Beacoup
Merci BeacoupLinkifiedThe link below is to the organisers of GenconUK, Horsemenevents.
http://www.consupport.com/forum/ topic.asp? TOPIC_ID= 1068
Cannot seem to linkify?
Cheers
De nada (hey, look at us being so international!)
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If Wizards can help promote and support the development of game stores in the same way games workshop has this will only be a good thing for D&D as a hobby, as long as they support all role-playing games and don't hedge out others in favor of 4e.
Have to agree with the others. You're talking out your rear. GW is hemorraging money, closing its own stores and hasnt been great support for local FLAGS.
GW doesnt support ANY games other than its own. You really dont know what your talking about.
If Wizards can help promote and support the development of game stores in the same way games workshop has this will only be a good thing for D&D as a hobby, as long as they support all role-playing games and don't hedge out others in favor of 4e.
For what it's worth, I don't think you're talking out of your rear. And please don't do that, BTW :P
I think you'd be right -- IF WotC were to support local game stores. But I don't think WotC has any plans or desire to do that or anything else that requires spending money.
Nor do they appear to have any interest in doing anything that will directly or indirectly support their competition -- quite the opposite, in fact. WotC no longer seems to believe that competition and diversity is good for the industry :(
IMO
Ok I don't know how you can say WotC doesn't support retailers. I'm a retailer they send me promo product all the time to demo their games. They have in store gaming tourneys. As a retail I just emailed a guy about some promo stuff last week and got a reply in less than 20 minutes. Heck just look at D&D gameday vs Free RPG day. As a retailer Free Rpg Day costs a minumum of $90. D&D Gameday is free. Enuff said.
And on the matter of GenCon the only reason they filed chapter 11 is because they spread themselves too thin too fast.
It's true, one of my gaming buddies gets lots of promo stuff for free, running demos all the time. They're pretty generous.
Cheers! :)
I stand corrected on the retail support thing. I should have known better -- I've seen lots of the promotional stuff in stores.
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Even with WotC's string of boneheaded decisions lately, I was surprised to hear this. Even with moving WWGD to the day after the release of 4th edition, they are going to miss some serious exposure for their product at Gen Con. I guess by now, I should be more surprised if they did something reasonably intelligent, than making one more ill-conceived, short sighted decision.
Christopher_Perkins is Design Manager, RPGs and Miniatures at
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.. and here is what he said
— I learned that we are, indeed, goin' to Gen Con! Clearly, one of the big thrusts of the show will be 4E. We have a cap on the number of R&D people we can send, and I *did* attend last year, so I'm not sure whether I'll be attending this year. I should know in the next few days, one way or the other.
So stop freaking out. They are not out to destroy the world or Gen Con.
I know I would've. I originally had always wanted to go to Gen Con to hang at the WotC areas, but now with this 4th Edition bull, I would only go if I could properly prepare a 4E boycott and figure out a good anti-4E T-shirt to wear.How about this one? :D
This is a good idea.
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Only time will tell, but I have my canned vegetables and bottled water prepped for the end times.
Good man! Too bad you live across the river so that I'll have a great many desperate fellow-survivors to battle my way past before I can bum off of your cache.
Anyone want to revise their tinfoil hat theories as to why this whole snafu went down and then went away (assuming that does turn out to be the case)?
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Anyone want to revise their tinfoil hat theories as to why this whole snafu went down and then went away (assuming that does turn out to be the case)?
Well I always thought they would go and was baffled that they appeared to be undecided.
My Theory: WotC recently received a new boss and he decided that he had to personally approve every major advertising expenditure and it just took him a while to getting around to giving attendance at Gencon the green light for his company.
...I learned that we are, indeed, goin' to Gen Con!
So stop freaking out. They are not out to destroy the world or Gen Con.
No, they're just stupid.
And that's what people are freaking over -- stupidity that keeps going and going and going and...
My Theory: WotC recently received a new boss and he decided that he had to personally approve every major advertising expenditure and it just took him a while to getting around to giving attendance at Gencon the green light for his company.
It certainly does seem that someone in the organization is refusing to enthusiastically commit to important elements of their business.
Which is worse, being dumb or poorly supported by their bosses? Neither interpretation bodes well for the future of the game. Good design is important, but how long will D&D last if their isn't ongoing support?
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I'm trying to convince my boyfriend to go to Gencon this year, and it's because of third party publishers (Paizo in particular!). I'm glad that Wizards is going now because the convention probably needs their support, but I can find out what they're up to at dozens of sites. The biggest draw for me is to see cool and different stuff that I normally wouldn't know anything about.
I'm glad that Wizards is going now because the convention probably needs their support, but I can find out what they're up to at dozens of sites.
It also strikes me as likely that GenCon's fate would be sealed if WotC pulled out.
Just a guess.
My Theory: WotC recently received a new boss and he decided that he had to personally approve every major advertising expenditure and it just took him a while to getting around to giving attendance at Gencon the green light for his company.It certainly does seem that someone in the organization is refusing to enthusiastically commit to important elements of their business.
Which is worse, being dumb or poorly supported by their bosses? Neither interpretation bodes well for the future of the game. Good design is important, but how long will D&D last if their isn't ongoing support?
No it's more like they got the go ahead from their lawyers. With Hasbro being a creditor in Gencon's Bankruptcy, I can see why that they would have problems with committing to Gencon.