At the moment, I am unsure. Without playing it first, I definitely won't buy, but no one is planning to run a 4E campaign, so the 8-ball says "Looks unlikely in the near future".
Besides which, if I play 4E, they might take away my Grognard's badge.
No one? Or no one you know? Perhaps that'd be a good excuse to try out the "online tools" that WotC might put out sometime this year... Maybe you can find someone online running a 4E campaign you can hop in with DDI support.
You can keep that badge, just complain every time you show up for your 4E campaign that in your day (3.5 Edition) you had to walk 5 miles through a foot of snow uphill both ways to play D&D. :)
I jest.
Best of luck Paul! I wish you only the best. I am edition-neutral.
As for grognard badges, I skipped 2nd and 3rd edition till last September. ;)
I guess I fall into the Buck Rogers 'unthaw me in the distant future' catagory.
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Best of luck Paul! I wish you only the best. I am edition-neutral.
As for grognard badges, I skipped 2nd and 3rd edition till last September. ;)
I guess I fall into the Buck Rogers 'unthaw me in the distant future' catagory.
Possibly. Although I prefer to split it into:
1st-5th level: Apprentice Grognard (3.5)6th-10th level: Master Grognard (3.0)
11th-15th level: Lord Grognard (2e)
16th-20th level: Grand Master Grognard (AD&D)
21st+ Level: Epic Grognard (D&D)
If you're still playing Chainmail and lamenting the newfangled changes of the red box you're officially a level 50 grognard and are entitled to add "Spawn of Gygax" to your name.
So why is it the FR then? No snark, honest curiousity.
I like me some 4E and all, but I can understand why FR fans are less than enthused (although, being FR fans, you'd think they'd get used to having their world blown up by now ...)
Cheers! :)
because when The Time of Troubles was over, the Realms still looked pretty much the same. This conversion is kind of like killing the Realms, urinating on it's corps and then telling us, shuuuu, it's just sleeping. Never mind the flies, it's even better now that it's like this.
Whoa, you know it from not even seeing it? I need that super-power! Think of the money I would save!
yeah, It's called the superpower of reading what the hell they've put up on WotC's website in Countdown to The Realms! Our anger is based entirely off of what THEY have told us about the Realms! Don't make it sound like we're pulling information out of our ass!
I think wishing ill on others leads to ill coming back to oneself. Especially since these guys, as you say, know FR. They're doing what they think is best for the setting.
If you had been reading a long book series, and upon finishing it, found you really disliked the ending, would you wish ill will upon the author?
No, it makes me never buy another book by that author. (Part of the reason I don't read Michael Chriton anymore, bad endings ('Sphere' anyone?)
Yeah, that's a pretty good analogy. It reeks of a "fire the audience" mentality.
QFT
Best of luck Paul! I wish you only the best. I am edition-neutral.
As for grognard badges, I skipped 2nd and 3rd edition till last September. ;)
I guess I fall into the Buck Rogers 'unthaw me in the distant future' catagory.
Possibly. Although I prefer to split it into:
1st-5th level: Apprentice Grognard (3.5)
6th-10th level: Master Grognard (3.0)
11th-15th level: Lord Grognard (2e)
16th-20th level: Grand Master Grognard (AD&D)
21st+ Level: Epic Grognard (D&D)If you're still playing Chainmail and lamenting the newfangled changes of the red box you're officially a level 50 grognard and are entitled to add "Spawn of Gygax" to your name.
Grand Master? I like that.
Whoa, you know it from not even seeing it? I need that super-power! Think of the money I would save!yeah, It's called the superpower of reading what the hell they've put up on WotC's website in Countdown to The Realms! Our anger is based entirely off of what THEY have told us about the Realms! Don't make it sound like we're pulling information out of our ass!
Which is also based off of a preview. I think the more important thing is going to be whether its fun to run adventures in Forgotten Realms than how different it looks.
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Which is also based off of a preview. I think the more important thing is going to be whether its fun to run adventures in Forgotten Realms than how different it looks.Whoa, you know it from not even seeing it? I need that super-power! Think of the money I would save!yeah, It's called the superpower of reading what the hell they've put up on WotC's website in Countdown to The Realms! Our anger is based entirely off of what THEY have told us about the Realms! Don't make it sound like we're pulling information out of our ass!
And some people, such as me, feel that the changes make it a new setting with an old name purely for brand recognition. And that irks us. As new setting, it might have been fun, but it is not the Realms (obviously IMHO) and that will make much less fun for me play in.
And some people, such as me, feel that the changes make it a new setting with an old name purely for brand recognition. And that irks us. As new setting, it might have been fun, but it is not the Realms (obviously IMHO) and that will make much less fun for me play in.Which is also based off of a preview. I think the more important thing is going to be whether its fun to run adventures in Forgotten Realms than how different it looks.Whoa, you know it from not even seeing it? I need that super-power! Think of the money I would save!yeah, It's called the superpower of reading what the hell they've put up on WotC's website in Countdown to The Realms! Our anger is based entirely off of what THEY have told us about the Realms! Don't make it sound like we're pulling information out of our ass!
And I have no problem if you look at it and think, "Its not for me." The only thing that bothers me is when someone proclaims that its universally crap.
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Let me preface by saying: my opinion doesn't matter because I'm not going 4E (not because I think it's going to suck, but because my library is too huge to discard as obsolete. Rules are just rules, the game is the story). So anything I say is based entirely on the fluff, the rules be damned.
As far as I'm concerned, even through Ed says the Realms belongs to everybody, the Realms is his brain baby. As long as he's happy, I'd accept it. I know I wouldn't want some company messing up my campaign world just because they think some snot-nosed kid with $45 to spend is more likely to buy another book about the setting if they put it through the meat grinder.
So... I'm sure it's been mentioned, but there's a lot of emails and I'm not sure I saw it anywhere... what's Ed's opinion of the new Realms?
And some people, such as me, feel that the changes make it a new setting with an old name purely for brand recognition. And that irks us. As new setting, it might have been fun, but it is not the Realms (obviously IMHO) and that will make much less fun for me play in.
I can totally see this point of view. And, never really thought of it like that. I wonder why Eberron fans griped about the timeline advancement and won WotC over, while FR fans griped about the destruction of the realms and got nothing.
I bet it simply had to do with their release schedule. They had probably already written much of the new FR by the time these previews became public.
With that said, why not take the new "Realms" out for a test run and see if it's fun playing in a post-apocalyptic version of the setting you so dearly like. That doesn't have to be the be all end all. There's no one saying you can't go back, or convert 3rd, 2nd Edition fluff to 4th Edition, or for that matter continue playing the Realms in an old edition.
The thing is, who knows, you might like the new Realms if you gave it a shot. It might not be the Realms that you grew up loving, but it might just be fun.
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With that said, why not take the new "Realms" out for a test run and see if it's fun playing in a post-apocalyptic version of the setting
Not to be off topic, but the first time around, that's what I thought Dark Sun was at first glance... an apocalyptic future version of the Forgotten Realms.
Then again, that was... omg... fifteen years ago.
Heh... I'm old....
Thats my feeling about the whole thing. Sure, the setting changed. Things happened. That doesnt mean that its not going to be fun.
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And some people, such as me, feel that the changes make it a new setting with an old name purely for brand recognition. And that irks us. As new setting, it might have been fun, but it is not the Realms (obviously IMHO) and that will make much less fun for me play in.I can totally see this point of view. And, never really thought of it like that. I wonder why Eberron fans griped about the timeline advancement and won WotC over, while FR fans griped about the destruction of the realms and got nothing.
I bet it simply had to do with their release schedule. They had probably already written much of the new FR by the time these previews became public.
With that said, why not take the new "Realms" out for a test run and see if it's fun playing in a post-apocalyptic version of the setting you so dearly like. That doesn't have to be the be all end all. There's no one saying you can't go back, or convert 3rd, 2nd Edition fluff to 4th Edition, or for that matter continue playing the Realms in an old edition.
The thing is, who knows, you might like the new Realms if you gave it a shot. It might not be the Realms that you grew up loving, but it might just be fun.
Two reasons:
1) I'm not a big fan of post-apocalyptic. Not something I find immensely fun in the first place (Gamma World never held much attraction, for example), so post-apocalyptic Realms has two major strikes against it.2) No one local is running such a game and I'm not buying them myself and giving WotC money for killing something I liked. That's the reason I've also stopped buying new Realms novels. As a consumer I have precisely one way to tell companies I don't like what they're doing, so I'm doing it.
As a consumer I have precisely one way to tell companies I don't like what they're doing, so I'm doing it.
Well, I commend you for taking a stand as a consumer.
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Let me preface by saying: my opinion doesn't matter because I'm not going 4E (not because I think it's going to suck, but because my library is too huge to discard as obsolete. Rules are just rules, the game is the story). So anything I say is based entirely on the fluff, the rules be damned.
As far as I'm concerned, even through Ed says the Realms belongs to everybody, the Realms is his brain baby. As long as he's happy, I'd accept it. I know I wouldn't want some company messing up my campaign world just because they think some snot-nosed kid with $45 to spend is more likely to buy another book about the setting if they put it through the meat grinder.
So... I'm sure it's been mentioned, but there's a lot of emails and I'm not sure I saw it anywhere... what's Ed's opinion of the new Realms?
That's precisely why they are doing it. For whatever reason, they think teenagers will be more likely to try it if they put it through the meatgrinder. Of course, these same kids they are doing this for have no clue about or interest in the Realms or even D&D at all. Brilliant move, huh? It's obvious from Ed's posts at the candlekeep forums that he wasn't too happy about it. He was being very diplomatic about it because WotC is still paying him. He's basically sticking around to salvage what he can out of the mess they've made. I wish him luck, but I don't think there is much he can do besides saying at the end of the campaign guide that it was all a bad dream Elminster had.
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So why is it the FR then? No snark, honest curiousity.
The question was already answered above, but for those of you interested in reading the "official" answer:
"Years and years ago, as a voracious young reader and writer, I started spinning fantasy short stories set in my own world, mainly starring a fat, crafty, aging merchant called Mirt, in adventures up and down the Sword Coast.
By 1967, I knew it was called “the Forgotten Realms,” and why (we here in real-world Earth had “forgotten” how to reach it, though travel between the two worlds and many other fantasy settings had once been common)."
By the way quite an interesting interview, providing some insights on how Ed Greenwood personally feels about changes to his realms in general and 4e changes in specific.
Cheers,
Günther
That's precisely why they are doing it. For whatever reason, they think teenagers will be more likely to try it if they put it through the meatgrinder. Of course, these same kids they are doing this for have no clue about or interest in the Realms or even D&D at all. Brilliant move, huh? It's obvious from Ed's posts at the candlekeep forums that he wasn't too happy about it. He was being very diplomatic about it because WotC is still paying him. He's basically sticking around to salvage what he can out of the mess they've made. I wish him luck, but I don't think there is much he can do besides saying at the end of the campaign guide that it was all a bad dream Elminster had.
What about the people who arent teens (or are) and played FR before, know stuff about it, and are STILL looking forward to running there?
For that matter, what about the people who didnt like running in the Realms, but are now due to the new direction?
So why is it the FR then? No snark, honest curiousity.
The question was already answered above, but for those of you interested in reading the "official" answer:
"Years and years ago, as a voracious young reader and writer, I started spinning fantasy short stories set in my own world, mainly starring a fat, crafty, aging merchant called Mirt, in adventures up and down the Sword Coast.
By 1967, I knew it was called “the Forgotten Realms,” and why (we here in real-world Earth had “forgotten” how to reach it, though travel between the two worlds and many other fantasy settings had once been common)."
By the way quite an interesting interview, providing some insights on how Ed Greenwood personally feels about changes to his realms in general and 4e changes in specific.
Cheers,
Günther
Wow! Thanks man! Interesting. I remember hearing something about how Greyhawk's Oerth was one of many planets that had varying levels of magic. Earth of course, had very little. There was an Urth and an Aerth as well. Yrth was the crazy super magical world? Is that real too, or internet rumor?
Anyhoo, while the real answer is known, I admit I like the idea of being able to use the name within the Realms themselves. But I understand if you'd prefer the only definition to be Ed's.
Cheers! :)
Antioch, could you please be so kind and make somewhat less hesitant use of bold text?
It is convenient for highlighting text fragments but a real pain to your eyes if most of a posting is formatted that way.
Thanks!
I'll try italics and see how that goes. Sorry. :-(
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I'll try italics and see how that goes. Sorry. :-(
No offence taken - and in the meantime I realized that the bold text in your postings was supposed to be quoted text. ;-)
If you like to quote fragments of previous postings, just delete the unneeded parts, the reminder will stay (compare this posting).
Cheers,
Günther
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Anyhoo, while the real answer is known, I admit I like the idea of being able to use the name within the Realms themselves. But I understand if you'd prefer the only definition to be Ed's.
That was "funny" for me, too.
I started playing AD&D using the FR grey box. And yet I always assumed that "forgotten" referred to the vanished realms the remnants of which the Faerûn of my imagination was dotted with. Actually I considered "Lost Empires" the supplement overdue the longest time. ;-)Anyway, I just learned the truth from reading Ed's interview.
And by the way, whatever different opinions people here have: I am glad that people in these boards start talking about FR again! Most FR fans of old in these boards seemed to drop out of the message threads after cancellation of the magazines and announcement of Golarion.
I am undecided about 4e FR: I dislike what will be done to realms continuity, and yet I see the potential of attracting new players (and especially DMs) to the realms.
If Greyhawk had been more accessible at the time when I started playing D&D, I'd be a GH devotee by now. It just looked "cooler" and felt closer to my ideal of fantasy rpg. Unfortunately there was already too much material available for an easy start.
The time shift is a chance. I might not like it and I might decide to stay in the 3.5e time line, but the new setting definitely will bring new players to the realms - which might be interested in the long run to get to know the "old era", too.
Cheers,
Günther
As a question, how hard would it be to run 3E timeline FR utilizing 4E rules? I guess Druids, Bards, Barbarians, and Monks are missing, at least for now. Did any of those feature largely? I remember Harpers were Bards right?
Would it be possible to run it that way?
Cheers! :)
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As a question, how hard would it be to run 3E timeline FR utilizing 4E rules? I guess Druids, Bards, Barbarians, and Monks are missing, at least for now. Did any of those feature largely? I remember Harpers were Bards right?
Would it be possible to run it that way?
Cheers! :)
EDITED:
An interesting question:
What about the missing classes in the new 4e FRCS? Gods of nature won't be gone out of a sudden, will they?
Classes in question:
In regard to the Harpers: The Harpers alias "those who harp" largely recruit from bards, but not exclusively so (see some of the major harper npcs of the past). So this shouldn't pose much of a problem.
Druids could be replaced by priests to some extent - actually the shift to 3e already made similar changes necessary. By then 2e specialty priests were gone and some people deviced PrC to get some surrogate. See e.g. these semi-official PrCs (the authour is one of WotC's 3e FR authours).
Monks were absent during 2e, so they wouldn't be missed too much in the realms.
Some people elsewhere already declared to create the missing base classes on their own, so it shouldn't take long to have suitable alternatives.
And in 2009 WotC is anyway supposed to deliver new base classes in PHB II...
Cheers,
Günther
And I have no problem if you look at it and think, "Its not for me." The only thing that bothers me is when someone proclaims that its universally crap.
My reaction comes from being one of those saps that owns every FR book in creation. Every Drizzt book, every Cunningham, Every Greenwood, Kemp, Smedman, Denning, every Grubb. The Azure Bonds, The Wyvern's Spur, The Making of a Mage To Sembia, stopping at Realms of War. I have at last count around 150 Fr books dating back to the early 80's. I have almost every piece of FR setting stuff including BOTH original Undermountain Modules. Of this I have fifty detailed (On character sheets) NPC's based from these books. Blackstaff, Danillo Thane, Talbot Uskevren, Erivis Cale, Elminster, Dove Falconhand, Elaith Craulnober, Fyodor, and Fzoul Chembral. How many of these characters (Just to name a few) have been erased by a hundred year jump? This is my huge sticking point. One hundred years equals alot of dead npcs. Npc's that were the reason I bought a hundred plus books. No amount of 'Cool New setting' can fix this. And I'm pissed because this major 'shake up' was done to appease the people who hated FR and never played in it. I remember one of the designers saying that FR was "Too developed" and that it made it hard to DM because the history was time intensive. Of course it TOO F&%#ing developed! It's been milked as a cash cow for over twenty years! and this answer is a real slap in the face to someone like me who has submerged myself into this rich world with a deep history. My wife once told me that playing in Fr was like going home. It was deep, well developed and familiar. It feels like my home brewed world that I've been DMing for 20 years.
As a consumer I have precisely one way to tell companies I don't like what they're doing, so I'm doing it.Well, I commend you for taking a stand as a consumer.
I wrote a letter to wizards telling them why I was pissed and that I wasn't buying anymore of their product. I got the nicest form letter in response. I knew it would be a joke, but it helped ease my mind knowing that at the very least someone from WotC would know my name, why I was pissed and what they could do to fix it. Not that I think it will matter much.
With that said, why not take the new "Realms" out for a test run and see if it's fun playing in a post-apocalyptic version of the settingNot to be off topic, but the first time around, that's what I thought Dark Sun was at first glance... an apocalyptic future version of the Forgotten Realms.
Then again, that was... omg... fifteen years ago.
Heh... I'm old....
Dark Suns... Fifteen... That's not old. I am not! Am Not! Am Not! Am Not! Am Not!Am Not!Am Not! Am Not!Am Not! Am Not! Am Not! Am Not!Am Not!Am Not! Am Not!Am Not! Am Not! Am Not! Am Not!Am Not!Am Not! Am Not!
The sad thing is that despite the fau paux, these guys know the Realms, and have done a lot of work with the Realms. I still can't figure out why blowing the world up and turning it inside out was the best way to convert the Realms to 4E. Best for who? Certainly not the Realms fans that have a small library of Realms novels and sourcebooks. It just seems that everything about 4E and the Realms debacle is WotC telling us as customers what we should want instead of trying to make products that we actually want. I hope they get paid back for their arrogance tenfold.
I will not purchase FR 4Ed or any other WotC products in the near future. To me, My old FR campaigns will be hte main stream, while the "canon" FR 4Ed will likely be a parallel universe.
Next.
Okay, I guess I was being a little harsh. I get worked up when I think about what they are doing to the Realms. Let me put it this way. I hope that 4E FR sales are lackluster enough to make them regret their hubris. I really think that their egos have gotten out of control and something needs to happen to make them step back and realize that they are supposed to try to make products their fans want instead of trying to foist unwanted changes on them and expect us to like it because they are game designers and can do no wrong. They should respect and work with their fans, because we keep them employed by purchasing their products.You mean changes unwanted by you. Judging from a few of the posters in here, I'd say there are a few people who want the changes. What you're really saying is that you hope there aren't enough people who like the changes, so the 4E Realms will be unprofitable.
It seems you're in a no-win situation. If the new Realms sells well, the designers will be vindicated. If it doesn't sell well, they're not going to just change it back. They may stop publishing Realms products. Of course, they could always license it to a third party to publish. I mean, that worked wonders for Ravenloft and Dark Sun.
When all is said and done, I think you're going to find that the 4E changes aren't as bad as they sound. The most important, most iconic, areas of the Realms will still be there. What they've done is to cut out crap like Mulhorand (Egyptian mythology shoehorned into the setting) and some things that really irked a lot of fans like the ubiquitous Chosen of Mystra. Waterdeep, Cormyr, the Dalelands, Evermeet, and Thay are still around and relatively unchanged.
Nightmare, I absolutely respect your love of the Realms; I know you wouldn't be nearly as vocal and upset if you didn't love them. But as Ed has said himself, the Forgotten Realms is a shared world. The 4E designers made some changes that are going to ruffle some feathers because the...
I am personally tired of seeing a lot of people, most of which don't play or enjoy the Realms, sit there and tell us Realms fans to "deal with it" and "you don't know everything about 4E Realms, it could be good" and "it's still the same Realms, if not better, why are you crying about it?" and so on.
Me and many other Realms fans I know loved the setting the way it is. I LOVE the Earth-like cultures involved yet they're still Realms-flavored. I've always wanted a world rich in detail, history, and settings.
Getting rid of places like Mulhorands is BAD. Why? Well, I have to tell my players,"Sorry, no Egyptian-type or Viking-type setting for your characters...4E Realms destroyed it. It's all Medieval Acid Trip Land now...and enjoy those Spell Scars, now, too."
Bull.
They trashed YEARS of lore and history of the Realms all for a quick buck. Years of fans and loyal customers are broken hearted and angry. And we have a right to be.
It's NOT the same setting WE enjoyed. That's what you should do as a company, please your customers. Not base ideas on statistics for how to make more money quickly. Base designing game material for pleasing more customers so you will have them for a very long time and they can get others involved.
I already know EVERYTHING about 4E Realms simply by reading everything on 4E D&D and 4E Realms collected on ENWorld and other sites. So stop telling some of us we haven't seen it all. We have more than enough to make a proper judgment.
I am personally very vocal and angry about it because I've spent a lot of my life and time on D&D and the Realms and to watch it get shattered is depressing and painful. The minute D&D went corporate, the process of its eventual death and decay began to settle in. TSR wasn't about to kill off D&D with its lame business mistakes...WotC already killed it with these money-scheming changes.
For the designers and others to dare say it's the same Realms, we will love it, it's best for the Realms, etc. is downright condenscending to us real fans.
If this is what is happening to the Realms, I feel very sorry for the rest of you and your favorite settings. You think Dark Sun, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape will ever be the same when it comes time for their debut in 4E? Prepare to see epic catastrophes to each of those settings. WotC really wants to piss of their fans one schism at a time. (Oh, and their baby Eberron gets al the glory of being "untouched"...what a coincidence, damn setting was secretly always built from the ground up as a 4E carryover).
Heck, look at what they did to Lot5R d20...yeah, that went places alright *roll eyes*. Poor AEG had to retcon so much crap WotC screwed up with, I am surprised they didn't lost ALL their fan base.
To further make my point in this short rant, Ed Greenwood even stated this is BAD for the future of the Realms. It's a sad time for D&D and not just the Realms, but every other campaign setting too (except the favored child, Eberron, of course).
I will stay low when 4E releases and return 5 years from now, to these boards and others, and will get the last laugh when 4E either plummets or 4.5e/5e is released or being worked on. Cause all the 4E/WotC Blind-Faith Sheep Flock will be in our shoes whining about 5e and "ZOMG, WotC is an evil corporation, how could they do this!?" and then the 5e lovers will shun them, hate them, spit on them and force them to move away from forums like WotC's, ENWorld's, and even here at Paizo's to hide away in some dark forum corner, barred from ever saying anything bad about 5E.
Funny how life works in cycles.
Yay, Razz is back.
Okay, I guess I was being a little harsh. I get worked up when I think about what they are doing to the Realms. Let me put it this way. I hope that 4E FR sales are lackluster enough to make them regret their hubris. I really think that their egos have gotten out of control and something needs to happen to make them step back and realize that they are supposed to try to make products their fans want instead of trying to foist unwanted changes on them and expect us to like it because they are game designers and can do no wrong. They should respect and work with their fans, because we keep them employed by purchasing their products.You mean changes unwanted by you. Judging from a few of the posters in here, I'd say there are a few people who want the changes. What you're really saying is that you hope there aren't enough people who like the changes, so the 4E Realms will be unprofitable.
It seems you're in a no-win situation. If the new Realms sells well, the designers will be vindicated. If it doesn't sell well, they're not going to just change it back. They may stop publishing Realms products. Of course, they could always license it to a third party to publish. I mean, that worked wonders for Ravenloft and Dark Sun.
When all is said and done, I think you're going to find that the 4E changes aren't as bad as they sound. The most important, most iconic, areas of the Realms will still be there. What they've done is to cut out crap like Mulhorand (Egyptian mythology shoehorned into the setting) and some things that really irked a lot of fans like the ubiquitous Chosen of Mystra. Waterdeep, Cormyr, the Dalelands, Evermeet, and Thay are still around and relatively unchanged.
Nightmare, I absolutely respect your love of the Realms; I know you wouldn't be nearly as vocal and upset if you didn't love them. But as Ed has said himself, the Forgotten Realms is a shared world. The 4E designers made some changes that are going to ruffle some...
I guess at this point, all I can say is that I'm glad that you're part of the minority audience: I dont think D&D would have made the advancements that it has had Wizards listened to your particular brand of feedback and input.
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It seems you're in a no-win situation. If the new Realms sells well, the designers will be vindicated. If it doesn't sell well, they're not going to just change it back. They may stop publishing Realms products. Of course, they could always license it to a third party to publish. I mean, that worked wonders for Ravenloft and Dark Sun.
Dark Sun was licensed at some point ?
Where ?
Dark Sun was licensed at some point ?
Where ?
Well it never saw print but the athas.org stuff was given official go ahead. So they are darksun 3e and free. They done core rules ,few sorcebooks a monster manual and some adventuress. Its good stuff and keeps a very good feel to it.
I am personally tired of seeing a lot of people, most of which don't play or enjoy the Realms, sit there and tell us Realms fans to "deal with it" and "you don't know everything about 4E Realms, it could be good" and "it's still the same Realms, if not better, why are you crying about it?" and so on.
I am personally tired of people making baseless assumptions about other people and proclaiming their hatred for 4E while citing reasons that defy all reason and logic. I am tired of people creatively interpreting and selectively reading previews as an excuse for said hatred.
Me and many other Realms fans I know loved the setting the way it is.
Enough people didn’t like the Realms the way it is that WotC felt it necessary to make some changes.
They trashed YEARS of lore and history of the Realms all for a quick buck.
They trashed certain parts of the setting that never really fit anyway all in an effort to revitalize the Realms and keep it profitable.
It's NOT the same setting WE enjoyed. That's what you should do as a company, please your customers. Not base ideas on statistics for how to make more money quickly. Base designing game material for pleasing more customers so you will have them for a very long time and they can get others involved.
You are not necessarily representative of all Realms fans. WotC designed the changes specifically to please their customers that were complaining and to get others involved.
I already know EVERYTHING about 4E Realms simply by reading everything on 4E D&D and 4E Realms collected on ENWorld and other sites.
You, sir, have astonishingly more foresight than I.
I am personally very vocal and angry about anything having to do with 4th Edition, period
FTFY
The minute D&D went corporate, the process of its eventual death and decay began to settle in. TSR wasn't about to kill off D&D with its lame business mistakes...WotC already killed it with these money-scheming changes.
Fact: If WotC hadn’t bought out TSR, there wouldn’t be a D&D. TSR was $30 million in debt and bankrupt at the time.
For the designers and others to dare say it's the same Realms, we will love it, it's best for the Realms, etc. is downright condenscending to us real fans.
You’re statement is what’s really condescending. Implying that anyone who disagrees with you isn’t a real Realms fan is the definition of arrogance.
(Oh, and their baby Eberron gets al the glory of being "untouched"...what a coincidence, damn setting was secretly always built from the ground up as a 4E carryover).
Please remove the tinfoil hat; it’s not very becoming.
Heck, look at what they did to Lot5R d20...yeah, that went places alright *roll eyes*. Poor AEG had to retcon so much crap WotC screwed up with, I am surprised they didn't lost ALL their fan base.
I’m having a hard time finding where WotC was in any way involved in Lot5R D20 besides the D20 logo.
To further make my point in this short rant…
My dictionary disagrees with you about the definition of “short”.
Ed Greenwood even stated this is BAD for the future of the Realms.
That is a gross misrepresentation of what he said. In fact, he specifically advised Realms fans to adopt a wait-and-see attitude until they had the chance to make an informed decision.
I will stay low when 4E releases and return 5 years from now, to these boards and others, and will get the last laugh when 4E either plummets or 4.5e/5e is released or being worked on. Cause all the 4E/WotC Blind-Faith Sheep Flock will be in our shoes whining about 5e and "ZOMG, WotC is an evil corporation, how could they do this!?" and then the 5e lovers will shun them, hate them, spit on them and force them to move away from forums like WotC's, ENWorld's, and even here at Paizo's to hide away in some dark forum corner, barred from ever saying anything bad about 5E.
When you make insulting and inflammatory statements like this, you should expect to be shunned. “Freedom of Speech” does not mean “Freedom from Consequences”. When you bury your message under a mountain of insults and exaggerations, don’t expect anyone to listen to or respect what you have to say.
Funny how life works in cycles.
I absolutely agree. Every time WotC makes a change to D&D, every time WotC makes a change to M:tG, every time Blizzard makes a change to WoW, the doomsayers start coming out of the woodwork and declaring the death of the game. Every time, the changes turn out to be good for the game, and everyone goes back to enjoying it until the next major change is announced.
Razz, I sincerely hope that you don't hop off the merry-go-round this cycle, and that you’re still here with us for the next cataclysmic change to the game we love. Gamers are like family, and we need to stick together. But I also hope that you learn to voice your opinions without all the melodrama and BS.
I guess at this point, all I can say is that I'm glad that you're part of the minority audience: I dont think D&D would have made the advancements that it has had Wizards listened to your particular brand of feedback and input.
Whether or not I'm part of the minority remains to be seen.
Could you clarify exactly which advancements would be precluded by my "particular brand of feedback and input"?
Wahoo! I wondered where you'd gone, Razz, old chap! It seems you were merely stewing before venting; like a sausage pricked with a fork.
Sebastrd pretty much covered the bases there.
P.S. Oh and it's "I (and other Realms fans I know) are appalled" or "I know that I and other Realms fans are appalled" (depending on whether you're trying to convey that you and your friends are appalled or that you and all other Realms fans in the world are appalled.
There appears to be problems with the quotes. My statement was directed at Razz. Sebastrd, I actually agree with a lot of the stuff you said, its just the quote block got messed up.
That being said, a couple quotes above werent by me.
There appears to be problems with the quotes. My statement was directed at Razz. Sebastrd, I actually agree with a lot of the stuff you said, its just the quote block got messed up.
That being said, a couple quotes above werent by me.
No worries. I was having some problems, too. I had to retype my whole post earlier because it got eaten.
I'll have to keep that in mind for the longer rants, especially if I wanna respond to them on a point-by-point basis. :-)
Generally:
Getting back to the 4E rendition of the Forgotten Realms, part of the problem (besides suspension of disbelief and continuity issues) may be that as part of the switchover process, there seems to have been a predominance of 'bad guys' winning. The goddess Shar (evil) teams up with Cyric (evil) to assassinate Mystra (good) successfully wrecking the world with the spellplague in the process. (Even if that might not have been an intention.) Shar's favourites, the Shades, (evil) conquer Sembia (a nation of greedy- but probably mostly neutral- merchants). Szass Tam (an evil necromancer & lich) successfully consolidates Thay (an evil country but previously relatively ineffective owing to internal squabbles) under his control. One of the 'Triad' (good aligned deities of Justice) gets killed off in a storyline which seems to me like something out of a rather bizarre soap-opera. Elminster apparently goes insane, or at least suffers from some condition which reduces his ability to do anything. Several other nations go missing in action, most of them 'good' ones; there seem to be a short supply of disasters mashing nations off the map which were evil to start off with. Throw in the proliferation of 4E related material which emphasises links to mostly evil things (tieflings, warlocks) and the message of the 4E rendition of the Forgotten Realms seems to be 'this is a world where it's really dumb to be a white-hat'. There seem to be exceptions in the area R A Salvatore writes about (the peace treaty between the Silver Marches & the orcs for example) but the impression which I have been left with is that this is very much against the general trend of events in the changeover.Edit:
There has been some mention made by previous posters of 'Realms Shaking Events' having occured in the fiction lines on a regular basis, but very few of them left me with the perception of the bad-guys having come out on top.
In that respect, Charles, you're preaching to the choir. Although I think swinging the balance in the favor of evil does create a lot of great adventure opportunities, I’m not at all impressed by the current “evil is cool!” trend. In Races and Classes, Rob Heinsoo mentioned that the Celestial wasn’t going to see print for a while because, “making Good-associated creatures as exciting as their Evil-curious counterparts is a challenge.” I always thought being a paragon of good was exciting, but I guess I’m in the minority on that. I very much dislike the new flavors of Warlock and Tiefling, as they seem a lot more than just “Evil-curious” to me.
I haven’t read the play-by-play on the death of Mystra, yet, but I definitely am no fan of Cyric. Honestly, I look forward to the day when he and Kelemvor join Midnight, and the whole Time of Troubles trio becomes nothing more than a bad memory.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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There appears to be problems with the quotes. My statement was directed at Razz. Sebastrd, I actually agree with a lot of the stuff you said, its just the quote block got messed up.
That being said, a couple quotes above werent by me.No worries. I was having some problems, too. I had to retype my whole post earlier because it got eaten.
Another useful piece of information: Razz is irrational, unintelligible, and generally full of s!@#. He's really not worth responding to and has been banned from just about every other D&D board out there. My suspicion is that he did not properly clean the tinfoil when making his uber-foil hat and some sort of fungus got into his ear canal and found a new home in his brain. He's posted the drivel about how TSR respected D&D a number of times (which is hilarious on so many fronts it's hard to even take as cogent thought by a sentient being).
Anyway, Razz = Troll, and not a very smart one at that.