Also, the detail required to do a regular map isn't increased just because it's bigger. All that has to increase is the resolution so when they're printed bigger they don't look pixelated.
The problem I see with this, which may or may not be accurate, is that the cartographers are going see Paizo as just blowing up their maps and making it look as if the quality of the cartographer's work is dropping because those maps were made by them to look good at a page or half a page, but only passable blown up to battlemap size.
Paizo would be making them look worse as cartographers and making it look as if that is the standard quality of their work. I can easily imagine them demanding more pay, even if they are told not to do more work on it, just because Paizo is going to make them look bad. Or just not work for Paizo at all.
Also, the detail required to do a regular map isn't increased just because it's bigger. All that has to increase is the resolution so when they're printed bigger they don't look pixelated.The problem I see with this, which may or may not be accurate, is that the cartographers are going see Paizo as just blowing up their maps and making it look as if the quality of the cartographer's work is dropping because those maps were made by them to look good at a page or half a page, but only passable blown up to battlemap size.
Paizo would be making them look worse as cartographers and making it look as if that is the standard quality of their work. I can easily imagine them demanding more pay, even if they are told not to do more work on it, just because Paizo is going to make them look bad. Or just not work for Paizo at all.
I'll agree that if it looks bad more work may have to be put into it AND I did go on to explain that if more detail work needed to be done then people like Tintagel could make amazing looking battle maps. Have you seen what Tintagel is doing with the battle maps he makes?
I'll agree that if it looks bad more work may have to be put into it AND I did go on to explain that if more detail work needed to be done then people like Tintagel could make amazing looking battle maps. Have you seen what Tintagel is doing with the battle maps he makes?
Yes, but I'm think that any of the maps blown up to that size will definitely look less good, maybe not bad, but average and unexceptional compared to how the cartographer made them look like. I would expect every map would need that work to be done on it.
I have seen what Tintagel is doing and I think think it is very good, but that doesn't change the issues that I believe exist (things like: paying cartographer's less for more or the effects volume of work combined with the scheduling requirements on the quality of the work as well as the sanity of the cartographer).
|
Picking up on Vic and Steve in the post Vic linked, I think Paizo should consider the battle maps. I only purchase the map folios because it enhances the RP and there are no battle maps. This company is also actively looking at buy and selling D&D minis - not for the purposes (directly) of supporting the D&D mini game but for RP. (my opinion)
I would rather see map folio that Paizo replaced with battlemaps for pathfinder adventure paths. Hell I would even scrap the game master flip maps and map packs to get something directly related to campaign material.
Vic talking about disconnect before... on other point but doesnt make more sense to support a strong market like AP than creating another generic one like the gamemastery flipmats. I am not bagging the quality just the link. I would love map tiles or flipmaps to be directly relevant to adventures ... just like the woodland flipmat to Into the forest.
That would not cost paizo much extra (I guess) if they refocus their map products.
Just my 20c worth.
I would rather see map folio that Paizo replaced with battlemaps for pathfinder adventure paths. Hell I would even scrap the game master flip maps and map packs to get something directly related to campaign material.
Ahyup.
Or at least coordinate the GameMastery products with the APs. But I think battle maps for the APs are definitely called for.
|
|
I still think that licensing out to a 3rd party developer is the way to go. Paizo gets a cut, the developer assumes all risk. Heck, they are doing it with the 3D folding scenery.
I also think that the current maps are passable as is. Don't believe me? Here is a screenshot gallery of my 4E Rise of the Runelords game - just took a few shots of our last 2 sessions. Make sure you click on the little magnifying glass to zoom in. (top right)
That's the "poor" quality of maps that we have to suffer through - well I can suffer. Keep in mind that the Thistletop dungeon is at DOUBLE scale to fit our 4E combats into it, so the quality would normally be twice as good.
Battlemaps are not impossible. You could produce VERY basic ones in just hours (I know, I do it), and more artistic ones in days. License them out as 3rd party products and everyone wins.
Chief Technical Officer
|
James' breakdown assumes printing all of the battle maps and that makes a huge difference. Also, the detail required to do a regular map isn't increased just because it's bigger. All that has to increase is the resolution so when they're printed bigger they don't look pixelated.
No, James' breakdown was just for the added cartography costs.
...decided to figure out how much it would cost us to pay a cartographer to rebuild all of the maps in the adventure to a 1-inch per square scale. This doesn't even touch the logistics of how we'd print and ship...
And despite the fact that you keep suggesting it's as simple as "increasing the resolution," that's just not the case. Creating things that are meant to be viewed at a higher resolution requires you to spend more time on them to make sure they look good.
Do you seriously believe that it would take as long for a cartographer to complete a map that's intended to be displayed as a half-page as it would take that cartographer to complete a map that's intended to be displayed four times larger, or 10 or 20 times larger?
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
Paizo won't produce PDF battle maps for me to purchase and they won't allow fans to distribute battle maps.
I've said it several times in this thread: we *do* allow fans to distribute battle maps, so long as they're *new cartography*, and not just our existing maps blown up to the point where they don't look good.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
What about some sort of licensing thing? What if Paizo licensed the rights to make Battlemaps for their APs, with the condition that there are no stats or keys printed with the maps? Think about it: Will a good battlemap serve as an advertisement or deterrent to buying a module? The map alone is limited in use without the module. Let me and other mappers make these for a percentage of sales, and sell them on your store! Paizo gets a cut and the fans are happy. If the product doesn't sell, no real loss, right? What am I missing?
I said before: "Still, if you think you know (or are) a cartographer that's as good as Rob, and who can commit to providing a couple dozen square feet of finished 1"-scale maps from unfinished small-scale turnover documents each month, without expecting it to provide their sole source of income, by all means, let us know."
I'll extend that a bit: If you think you have a complete product strategy, come up with a business plan and pitch it to us. Tell us what you can do each month, how many copies you'd need to sell at a number of potential price points, how much of suggested retail you'd expect to take, and so on. If it meets our standards for quality and makes sense for our business needs, it might happen.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
Vic talking about disconnect before... on other point but doesnt make more sense to support a strong market like AP than creating another generic one like the gamemastery flipmats. I am not bagging the quality just the link. I would love map tiles or flipmaps to be directly relevant to adventures ... just like the woodland flipmat to Into the forest.
We have to be careful to make sure our Flip-Mats and Map Packs maintain generic appeal. If people feel like they're too specific, they won't sell as well.
Working the other way around though, our Pathfinder Society Scenarios are starting to make better use of some of those products.
|
|
Vic talking about disconnect before... on other point but doesnt make more sense to support a strong market like AP than creating another generic one like the gamemastery flipmats. I am not bagging the quality just the link. I would love map tiles or flipmaps to be directly relevant to adventures ... just like the woodland flipmat to Into the forest.We have to be careful to make sure our Flip-Mats and Map Packs maintain generic appeal. If people feel like they're too specific, they won't sell as well.
Working the other way around though, our Pathfinder Society Scenarios are starting to make better use of some of those products.
REALLY appreciate the lengths you take for this discussion Vic.
I saw in a related thread that there is some move to make use of the maps in the pathfinder society materials. I would point out atm that I have no pathfinder materials and I will be running the PF AP for sure! If you look at the player reviews for the map folios and some of the map packs there is a disconnect in what you are saying and what is being reported - mind you that is a limited amount.
I recently purchased most of the map packs and I hope to get time to integrate them into the RotRL campaign and beyond. The map folios appear to be coolly received. Generally I believe they are not as useful and are sugar for the Dm to use. I think you could sell the battle maps or tiles for the AP as generic because some of them are generic with some specific to the game. I think that is a reality and worth consideration.
There is a HUGE call and need for mini maps to support the PF AP which I know I would be grateful for (and I am greatful to the fan generated ones here). IF it is in the too hard basket why not endorse the fan produced stuff and then have its own special download section here - like webenhancements?
You guys run heaps of comps all the time why not stagger the battlemap production for the APs with successful apps getting their name in the stars with a $10 gift voucher (or not). If the uptake is poor no skin off anyones nose and things can continue as before. Minimal cost to Paizo with some outlay as prizes but more permentantly net space for the files.
Just some thoughts... and I am bias as I am busy IRL and I know if I could access/purchase battlemats/tiles for the minis it would save SO much time.
And despite the fact that you keep suggesting it's as simple as "increasing the resolution," that's just not the case. Creating things that are meant to be viewed at a higher resolution requires you to spend more time on them to make sure they look good.
Do you seriously believe that it would take as long for a cartographer to complete a map that's intended to be displayed as a half-page as it would take that cartographer to complete a map that's intended to be displayed four times larger, or 10 or 20 times larger?
Increasing the resolution does solve the problem for what a battle map is made for though. No more detail needs to be added, because if it is, it just gets in the way of trying to use the minis to play out the battle scenes. What the higher resolution (with the same detail) does is get rid of the pixelating problem that happens when you blow the standard size maps up when creating the battle maps.
So yes, I seriously believe it would take the same time.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
If you look at the player reviews for the map folios and some of the map packs there is a disconnect in what you are saying and what is being reported - mind you that is a limited amount.
To be clear, I was only talking about the Flip-Mats and Map Packs needing to be generically useful to be successful. The Map Folios are a completely different thing, and are very much not intended to be generic.
I think you could sell the battle maps or tiles for the AP as generic because some of them are generic with some specific to the game.
Some, yes. Others less so. But we also think that our bimonthly schedule for Map Packs and Flip-Mats is pretty much all that we can get the retail channel to accept. Even Wizards only releases a new Dungeon Tiles set every three or four months.
why not endorse the fan produced stuff and then have its own special download section here - like webenhancements?
We do intend to make it easier for folks to find such things, but we have no desire to endorse or host them, as that blurs the line a bit too much. (Now, if we officially licensed them out, that's another matter.)
Thanks for the response Vic.
Again I can not express the appreciation I have to be able to talk with a company about products I purchase.
I just hope I do not outlive my welcome. :)
I agree Masika in appreciating that you guys are willing to talk so openly about issues like this, especially when there's disagreements. So I'll finally take no for an answer.
For the foreseeable future, I will be making my own pixelated Pathfinder battle maps (or grabbing copies of the maps Tintagel or other people decide to redraw).
So yes, I seriously believe it would take the same time.Well, I no longer have any idea what to say to you on this topic, then. All I can say is that if you were right, we wouldn't even be having this discussion—we'd already be doing it.
Vic - there may be something you're not doing.
I play 100% of my games with Maptool. 100% of my AP purchases have been PDF — I recently subscribed for Legacy of Fire only because I get the PDFs with it. If I had to choose between hardcopy and PDF, I would choose PDF in a heartbeat.
Specifically, the map of Sandpoint is awesome and I love to use it, but the resolution looks terrible when I scale it to actual size. Now, I have a hunch that the PDF does not reproduce the art for that map at the same scale Mr. Lazzaretti mapped it — I could be wrong.
If a better resolution map of Sandpoint existed, I would pay for it. In fact, if you go ask Mr. Lazzaretti or you have a copy of whatever original file contains the map, and it is higher res, put it in the store right now and I will give you $5 for it. And I bet I'm not the only one.
Computers and RPGs are becoming rapidly more intertwined. The more Paizo can do to support digital desktops, the more avenues they'll have for the sale and use of the product.
|
|
I really don't see how this would be difficult for Paizo to capitalize on. Do the cartographers create the maps at the same size we see them in our PDFs or the printed material? I imagine they create them at a higher resolution/larger size, which is then scaled down for the PDF. All we're asking for is a PDF that includes those original larger files. :)
|
CEO
|
I really don't see how this would be difficult for Paizo to capitalize on. Do the cartographers create the maps at the same size we see them in our PDFs or the printed material? I imagine they create them at a higher resolution/larger size, which is then scaled down for the PDF. All we're asking for is a PDF that includes those original larger files. :)
Actually, from what I understand, the cartographers actually create the maps at the size we use them at. Perhaps a slight bit bigger, but not anywhere near large enough to upsize to battle map status. Artists do the same thing with artwork. When we ask for a quarter page, they paint a quarter page. That is why we can't take a smaller illo and make it larger.
On another topic, as somebody who actively GMs our APs, I would LOVE to have battle maps of the various rooms, chambers, etc. Seriously, if there is any way that I can get this done and have it make sense for Paizo's business, it WILL happen. But right now, I haven't been able to figure that out. Perhaps, if somebody takes the ball Vic threw out there about coming up with a business plan and pitching it to us, we might be able to get someone outside of Paizo to do it. I'll put my mind to seeing if we can figure this out. But it isn't as easy as upsizing the artwork we already have. Trust me, I've asked. :)
-Lisa
Actually, from what I understand, the cartographers actually create the maps at the size we use them at. Perhaps a slight bit bigger, but not anywhere near large enough to upsize to battle map status.
On another topic, as somebody who actively GMs our APs, I would LOVE to have battle maps of the various rooms, chambers, etc. Seriously, if there is any way that I can get this done and have it make sense for Paizo's business, it WILL happen. But right now, I haven't been able to figure that out. Perhaps, if somebody takes the ball Vic threw out there about coming up with a business plan and pitching it to us, we might be able to get someone outside of Paizo to do it. I'll put my mind to seeing if we can figure this out. But it isn't as easy as upsizing the artwork we already have. Trust me, I've asked. :)
-Lisa
I agree Lisa, full color battle maps are the way to go. I have been running Rise of the Rune Lords and have been using full color battle maps from the very beginning. After decades of gaming with battle maps and vis-a-vis markers, my players were very impressed.
I have been using both community created maps as well as "blowing up" the PDF's to 1" per square when I print them. The resolution on the blow-ups isn't great, but it's still much more immersive than a plain brown battle mat.
We only play once a month, so I have a bit of an advatage in that a long span of time has passed since the AP came out, giving the community more time to create new stuff.
I'm going to have to take a serious look into the business plan idea posted by Vic. One of my gaming buddies knows CAD and was also an RPG Superstar-08 Top 32. And I've always liked maps... :)
I really don't see how this would be difficult for Paizo to capitalize on. Do the cartographers create the maps at the same size we see them in our PDFs or the printed material? I imagine they create them at a higher resolution/larger size, which is then scaled down for the PDF. All we're asking for is a PDF that includes those original larger files. :)
My wild quess is that they create them to actual size their going to be printed with a resolution of 300dpi at most. And that's not enough to print them professionally in high quality battlemaps (that would require a resolution of what, maybe 2000dpi to blow them up?). While 300dpi maps would undoubtly satisfy many customers, I understand fully that a company wouldn't want to sell battlemap pdf's which aren't actually in good enough resolution. I mean we're talking about very drastic change in size of the map. And as I mentioned before, I don't think cartographers would be very happy if someone sold maps that they designed to look good in half page, as battlemaps.
/wild quessing
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
Actually, from what I understand, the cartographers actually create the maps at the size we use them at.
Yes, they're pretty much designed at the size you see them. Working artists (including cartographers) generally can't afford to put time into adding a level of detail that won't be seen; they work to the finished size so that they can move on to the next map as soon as possible.
Now, the version you get in the PDF does include image compression to bring the file size down; the uncompressed versions would look a *little bit* better scaled up, but they can't look a lot better. The detail just isn't there.
|
|
I'm going to have to take a serious look into the business plan idea posted by Vic. One of my gaming buddies knows CAD and was also an RPG Superstar-08 Top 32. And I've always liked maps... :)
If you are serious, Michael, email me: rivera.ga (at) gmail.com
I'd love to put our heads and efforts together with some other artists I know.|
|
I would also like to echo the appreciation that has been expressed for Vic, and now Lisa! Not many companies would have their technical director and CEO patiently explaining some of the finer points of their business with the community. I value your imput and time and hope that this conversation had been as beneficial to Paizo as it has been to us.
So ummm let me get this straight no one is posting maps here????? at all?
|
|
So ummm let me get this straight no one is posting maps here????? at all?
Sure we are. You can grab all of the ones I have done on my RotR 4E project site:
Educated Gamer - Rise of the Runelords Project Site
If you would rather browse the maps visually, you can also get them at my gallery site:
Educated Gamer Gallery
Just click on the first section: Map Sets
Then scroll down and look for the RotR. I have some for Burnt Offerings and Skinsaw Murders.
Also, this thread has more community created content - including some battlemaps.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/runelords/forumCreatedStuffMayContainSupplements
|
I would like to further echo thanks to Vic, Lisa and anyone that I forgot to mention for thier willingness to answer our questions and explain their answers to us in a professional manner. Not many companies would do that. Yes there is a demand for such things but businesses don't run on faith...they need to make money to thrive. Yes Battle maps for every place where battles might happen would be nice but it is understandable why it's not a viable option "right now". All in all I like Paizo's work!