One thing that has always disappointed me was that only even numbered ability scores provided a jump in bonus (or penalty). They always seem as if an odd score is more a nuisance than a benefit. What if abilities provided bonus modifiers in the following way. Basically you would give each ability a "primary modifier" and a "secondary modifier" Strength for example might look like what follows:
Str Primary Secondary
12 +1 +0
13 +1 +1
14 +2 +1
15 +2 +2
16 +3 +2
17 +3 +3
18 +4 +3
etc.
In this example, a Strength of 14 would give a secondary bonus of +1 to hit and a primary bonus of +2 to damage.
Don't know if it would be too complex or no...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm in agreement, odd ability scores are fine.
1) in point buy they're an investment, especially that 15.
2) lots of feats have odd numbers as a trigger.
3) What is it with 'everything must give you something'? I mean, via, dead levels and now dead ability scores? It's like those elementary school contests where everyone gets a ribbon.
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3) What is it with 'everything must give you something'? I mean, via, dead levels and now dead ability scores? It's like those elementary school contests where everyone gets a ribbon.
In this case, he's taking something away from the even score and giving it to the odd, not adding another ability.
A 12 is normally +1 to attack and damage for strength. In his example, a 12 for strength would only provide a +1 to damage and no bonus to attack.
A 13 would provide a bonus to attack and damage.
That's actually a better system in some ways, but I don't think we should adopt it. Simply put, while it is better, it is more work in terms of backwards compatability and even just in discussing the game. Having the scores be consistent and providing their bonus 'across the board' is very easy. No worry about whether a 12 gives a bonus to a skill, or if you need a 13....
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3) What is it with 'everything must give you something'? I mean, via, dead levels and now dead ability scores? It's like those elementary school contests where everyone gets a ribbon.In this case, he's taking something away from the even score and giving it to the odd, not adding another ability.
A 12 is normally +1 to attack and damage for strength. In his example, a 12 for strength would only provide a +1 to damage and no bonus to attack.
A 13 would provide a bonus to attack and damage.
That's actually a better system in some ways, but I don't think we should adopt it. Simply put, while it is better, it is more work in terms of backwards compatability and even just in discussing the game. Having the scores be consistent and providing their bonus 'across the board' is very easy. No worry about whether a 12 gives a bonus to a skill, or if you need a 13....
Could be a fine house rule if someone wants, but it's probably a little too crunchy for the core rules.
It would require too much balancing and work to get this system in the game plus its over complicating an already complicated system.
Though I give it to you that its a good idea.
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I'm still seriously considering abandoning ability scores anyway and just using modifiers.
Odd ability scores being prerequisites for Feats is, IMO, a bug, not a feature. Does the Fighter *really* need to have a 13 Intelligence to pull back on his offense and fight better defensively via Expertise?
'Cause he's gonna be a *weaker* Fighter if he has to blow his point-buy on stuff like that, no wonder he has to fight defensively!
Who will be the one who has a week of vacation cancelled so he can assign primary and secondary to everything?
Will there be a poll, like the time when they were snowed in and let us vote who they're gonna eat? ;-P
I'd say it's way too much work for way too little gain, it really messes with backwards compatibility, and I also think that odd stats are fine as they are. They have the feats (minimum ability scores as prerequisites are always odd number, unless I missed something), and there's always the part about working towards a higher mod with the +1 you get every 4 levels.
The only thing I might change is the point buy cost table
Maybe something like this:
Score: Old Cost / New Cost
8: 0 / 0
9: 1 / 1
10: 2 / 2
11: 3 / 3
12: 4 / 4
13: 5 / 5
14: 6 / 7
15: 8 / 9
16: 10 / 11
17: 13 / 13
18: 16 / 16
I can see everyone's points of view. It was just a thought that was spawned from an idea I had for making a smoother increase in ability rather than a choppy one. As it stands now there isn't really any difference between a score of 14 or a score of 15 for instance, other than the fact that 15 gets you closer to a 16.
I could ramble on about my thoughts on this, but after reading the responses, I agree that this idea wouldn't add much to the game as a whole and doesn't address more important issues.
I may house rule it for myself however :).
I can see everyone's points of view. It was just a thought that was spawned from an idea I had for making a smoother increase in ability rather than a choppy one. As it stands now there isn't really any difference between a score of 14 or a score of 15 for instance, other than the fact that 15 gets you closer to a 16.
Odd stats had slightly more use in 3.0, with the d4+1 stat boost spells.
KaeYoss: I like the point-buy change - that's brilliant! Give an advantage to starting with a 13 :).
One thing that has always disappointed me was that only even numbered ability scores provided a jump in bonus (or penalty). They always seem as if an odd score is more a nuisance than a benefit. What if abilities provided bonus modifiers in the following way. Basically you would give each ability a "primary modifier" and a "secondary modifier" Strength for example might look like what follows:
Str Primary Secondary
12 +1 +0
13 +1 +1
14 +2 +1
15 +2 +2
16 +3 +2
17 +3 +3
18 +4 +3
etc.In this example, a Strength of 14 would give a secondary bonus of +1 to hit and a primary bonus of +2 to damage.
Don't know if it would be too complex or no...
Isn't this just a throw back to 2nd Edition?
Lets bring back percentile Strength (18/00 anyone?) ;)
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Odd stats have several places in the game:
Lets say you make your save vs. Cloudkill. Half of 1d4 is 3/4 times going to be 1. 15 CON goes to 14 CON. No loss of hitpoints, no reduction of saving throws. Bam.
Prerequisites.
Also, in standard competitions of straight up ability the person with the highest score wins. Arm wrestling: The guy with 17 str beats the guy with 16, regardless. In my group we use dexterity to determine who acts before who when initiative rolls tie (None of that simultaneous hassle. Turn based all the way!)
Also: Tome/Manual of X +1.
Stat mod items with odd modifiers would make everybody's lives easier.
Maybe having an odd in an ability score could just give a reroll once a day in a skill based on that score. That way nothing would have to change, but people with "oddies" would get something for it.
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Odd ability scores are a lot closer to the next bump than even scores. If you start the game with all even scores and get to increase one ability by one point at 4th level, you don't get much. But if you started with a couple of odd ability scores, as soon as you hit 4th level you get a new, higher bonus. So, in my book, they represent planning for the future.
Odd ability scores are a lot closer to the next bump than even scores. If you start the game with all even scores and get to increase one ability by one point at 4th level, you don't get much. But if you started with a couple of odd ability scores, as soon as you hit 4th level you get a new, higher bonus. So, in my book, they represent planning for the future.
But when you roll a set where every single stat is odd... well, that's when a Belt of Magnificence +1 starts sounding like a pretty good idea.
I have thought of doing this with ability scores many times myself. The simplest way I imagined being able to do it was letting the odd ability scores boost skill modifiers and the even ability scores boost everything else. So an 11 would give you +1 to all skills based on that ability, a 12 would give you +1 to anything else affected by that ability (hit points, saving throw, AC, attack bonus, save DC, bonus spells, etc.).
I would heartily enjoy seeing it included in future Pathfinder releases.