I'm not sure if many still read these forums, seeing the direction Paizo has chosen for now. But I figured if any still do, you might appreciate hearing about the 4E playtest I recently took part in. My regular 3.5 group couldn't meet (DM was busy) so we put our AoW campaign on hold to run a 4E playtest another player is going to be running at a con in a few weeks.
We started off by handing out the pregen characters from the DnDXP. They're posted at WotC's site and a few other places, but I'd figure everyone here is familiar with them.
I ended up playing Skamos, the Tiefling Wizard. I'm pretty 3E but I like to keep an open mind, and wanted to try and be critical and even-handed. I'm not sure how well I managed (I AM pretty pro-4E) but here are my experiences:
I liked the larger amount of HP, although it really didn't serve me that well (more on that in a bit). I had a few different affects I had trouble remembering at first, but I mostly chalk that up to being new to the system. Another player complained about remembering so many different things, but most of the group agreed the problem was only the newness, not an actual greater variety than 3E.
Combats seemed pretty fast paced (although again, things were slow since these were new chars and the rules have changed a bit) and we managed to get through two combats and a 'skill challenge' in maybe 210 minutes (3.5 hours) of play. Not too shabby for a group with little rules experience (besides the DM, I think I'm the only one who has extensively followed the release).
For those curious, the module we ran through was "Escape from Sembia". I believe it is part of the new Living FR, but am unsure. If you don't want to know any details from the module, I'd stop here.
We start off coming to a small town to deliver the MacGuffin to some guy
(didn't totally catch it). We notice our contact coming out of a shop when he gets knifed by a bandit and a group of mercenary town guards (I think we COULD have saved him, but not a single Perception check was in double digits ... DEFINITELY a sign of what was to come!)
Battle was joined, with the Ranger and Warlock sniping the bandit/guards from the bar's window (much to the bartenders chagrin) while the Fighter, Cleric, and Wizard (me) ventured out to meet them in the streets.
As the Wizard I had an at-will small AE that did fire, and Magic Missiles as a long range attack. I also had a few cantrips usable at-will. Between covering fire from the Ranger and Warlock and the Fighter mostly holding them at bay, the guards were wiped up pretty easily.
At one point the bandit and a guard cornered the Fighter and pulled a few strong attacks on her, but she was pretty tough (as a Fighter should be) and was cured to nearly max by the Cleric's healing ability.
After the fight, we were introduced to our first taste of the new 'skill challenge' system. Basically, hearing guards were being cut down in the market, the heat came down on us hard, meaning we had to flee the scene. We went around the table describing how we get away and the DM would ask us for skill checks. The Warlock and Fighter ended up being unable to do pretty much anything (their rolls were TERRIBLE!) and despite everyone being able to sneak away, we accumulated too many failures to win the encounter. Exactly what the negative was I'm not sure (I think it made our next encounter more difficult).
For the third encounter, having fled the town we were in, we came across a small band of hobgoblins camping in the woods. The Warlock wanted to know why we should even bother messing with these guys, but after the Wizard assured her that hobgoblins were akin to roaches, she agreed to wipe the camp out.
The Wizard and Ranger tried sneaking up on the hobgoblins but the Wizard made a noise and was heard. I tried out Sleep on the hobgoblins, and even though they had a special ability to shrug my Sleep off, a few remained affected, which prevented them from reaching me.
In the end though, it wasn't really enough and the Wizard, Ranger, and Cleric all fell to the hobgoblin's attacks. The Fighter was unconscious and the only one standing was the Warlock (we only had 5 players so no one ran the Paladin.)
Overall I had a lot of fun and the opinion of the group seemed pretty positive. We'll be revisiting the module again next Thursday (the AoW DM can't make it again, and there were two encounters left in the module when we ended it.) If there is any interest I'll post what happens next week.
Cheers! :)
Sounds great! The hobgoblin encounter made me laugh - "like roaches" :D
What was the composition of the hobgoblin band?
Wow! Looks like this forum still gets some traffic after all.
Sounds great! The hobgoblin encounter made me laugh - "like roaches" :D
I decided I would play Skamos as an arrogant, "speciest" jerk. The Ranger kept telling everyone he was a good guy, and there to help. I'd be in the background saying the opposite! :P (Also, my Wisdom of 9 led me to play pretty recklessly ... what threat can pitiful Hobgoblins pose to ME? Mwahaha! ... I do love the egomaniac.)
Thank David!
Any other comments about how the session went? ie feel, mechanics, pace etc?
Hmm. I really liked it. The combats seemed to move fast, and with practice I can definitely see it being a breeze to play. Some rule changes are for the better (no penalty for firing into melee, no ranged cover for friendlies). A few aren't really bad, just different.
As Charging was explained to us, for example, you don't need to move in a straight line anymore. Quite a change, but not absolutely a bad one. Combats are MUCH more fluid, with different characters/monsters moving all over the place both of their own volition and not. At the same time though, it's still pretty tactical with AoOs and such at full force. Of course, now they're called "Opportunity Attacks" and one complaint a few others had was the names of familiar concepts changing (the DM said the reason is because while similar, it IS different, and the name change helps you focus on that. I dunno personally.)
As for the feel, it felt VERY much like DnD to me. Wizards throwing Magic Missiles, Rangers peppering foes with arrows. Fighters whacking hobgoblins around (and getting whacked back!) I really dug the vibe I came away from. My wife was a little less sure, but still seemed excited (she ran the Cleric ... I haven't had much chance to really discuss it with her yet though.)
What was the composition of the hobgoblin band?
Three hobgoblin soldiers, two archers, and a warcaster. The Ranger got a really nice crit on his daily power at the very start and the warcaster went down before he could really ever do anything. The soldiers were very solid tanks, hitting hard with lots of armor, while the archers kept back and rained destruction on us from above.
Glad to hear you enjoyed it! Any chance you might be able to direct us to where you found Escape from Sembia? I'd been poking around ENWorld and couldn't seem to find it over there.
Also if you haven't tried it yet, I'll be giving "Raiders of Oakhurst" a try this evening, so I'll likely post how that goes. I'll be using a smaller than average party too, so it should be interesting.
Also if you haven't tried it yet, I'll be giving "Raiders of Oakhurst" a try this evening, so I'll likely post how that goes. I'll be using a smaller than average party too, so it should be interesting.
I'll be running RoO Sunday afternoon. I'll be sure to post a review as well. ;-)
Thanks for sharing!
David! Glad to see you still posting. I have found myself missing your posts lately.
The combats seemed to move fast, and with practice I
can definitely see it being a breeze to play.
I am not trying to pick a bone here... But are you saying that it is no more easy, or difficult, than to play a 3.5 combat "with practice?"
I will grant you that the rules may be simpler for some, even most, to pick up. But if practice is still needed, then there isn't much need to give it a shot if you are sufficiently practiced with 3.5.
Glad to hear you enjoyed it! Any chance you might be able to direct us to where you found Escape from Sembia? I'd been poking around ENWorld and couldn't seem to find it over there.
Also if you haven't tried it yet, I'll be giving "Raiders of Oakhurst" a try this evening, so I'll likely post how that goes. I'll be using a smaller than average party too, so it should be interesting.
As far as I know, the guy who ran it received it from WotC himself as an official "demo runner" or whatever they'd call it. I haven't seen Escape from Sembia anywhere, and I'm not sure if you can actually get it (at the RPGA site I think you will be able to download it after the books release, although I don't know much about the RPGA.)
Post it up here and I'll take a read. I like seeing others playtests! :)
David! Glad to see you still posting. I have found myself missing your posts lately.
I am not trying to pick a bone here... But are you saying that it is no more easy, or difficult, than to play a 3.5 combat "with practice?"
I will grant you that the rules may be simpler for some, even most, to pick up. But if practice is still needed, then there isn't much need to give it a shot if you are sufficiently practiced with 3.5.
Thanks Dis! Despite the lack of Paizo 4E, it looks like my daily schedule has remained pretty much the same. I still have plenty of time that in the old contentious days was devoted to knocking about on these boards, so I still find myself swinging by here when time permits ... it's just a lot quieter nowadays (I'd guess the Pathfinder playtest is sucking up most of the attention, and rightfully so!)
As for the quote you had, while it may be easier for the DM to run (it seems that way, but I haven't run 4E yet so don't know off hand) I don't think it is really any easier to run as a player than 3E.
My reference to breezes was trying to emphasize that the system felt like it moved pretty fast. We had some hang-ups with other players trying to figure out the rules/their characters, but rounds still ticked off at a faster pace than I'm used to in 3E. Having only had one taste I can't be sure that is an actual trend of just a blip that night, but I'm pretty optimistic (as always, I suppose!) It is also possible that the more fluid nature of combat (you really do move all over the place) lent itself to that feeling; I really enjoyed how movement factored more into the battle.
If theses trends hold up, I'll be pretty pleased!
Cheers! :)
It is also possible that the more fluid nature of combat (you really do move all over the place) lent itself to that feeling; I really enjoyed how movement factored more into the battle.
Hmmm.... That confirms a fear for many. Battlemaps are more important/required more.
Please keep sharing your thoughts on 4th Edition. I'll take your opinions over most others any day. (For the record, there are a couple of people whose opinions rank higher than you... But not many. :-) )
David! Glad to see you still posting. I have found myself missing your posts lately.
The combats seemed to move fast, and with practice I
can definitely see it being a breeze to play.I am not trying to pick a bone here... But are you saying that it is no more easy, or difficult, than to play a 3.5 combat "with practice?"
I will grant you that the rules may be simpler for some, even most, to pick up. But if practice is still needed, then there isn't much need to give it a shot if you are sufficiently practiced with 3.5.
I suspect that the difference in low level play will be very marginal. My guess is we'll notice the difference a lot more in high level play.
Really 3.X is kind of an anomaly in this regard. In 1st and 2nd it took longer when you got to high levels but not like what one finds in 3.X where combats seem to take a real order of magnitude longer at high levels when compared to low levels.
Hmmm.... That confirms a fear for many. Battlemaps are more important/required more.
Please keep sharing your thoughts on 4th Edition. I'll take your opinions over most others any day. (For the record, there are a couple of people whose opinions rank higher than you... But not many. :-) )
Me and my group has pretty much always used a battle map, even back in 2E days, so whether or not one is required isn't really a factor for us. Plus, one of our members is a huge fan of DnD Minis, so we have all the minis we'll ever need (and then some!)
I've never tried 3E without a battlemat, so I'm not sure how it would compare to trying 4E without a battlemat. My personal guess is that it wouldn't be much harder, but then I'd say using 3E without a battlemat is really hard, so I might not be the right guy to be judging the differences here.
I know you don't realy like ENWorld, so here is a snippet of a playtest report posted over there that deals precisely with this issue (and from the PoV of someone who has done 3E without the grid)
Sounds good to me. Except OD&D can be played without a board. My playtester said you can play 4e w/o a grid as well as you could in 3e. For that, I dunked him back underwater because you gotta bastardize 3e to run w/o a grid. I have done it, but I houseruled AOOs and all feats that affected AOOs. Once allowed to breathe air again, the playtester agreed. 4e is very focussed on 3D strategy for combat. No doubt. Tactical movement is deeply emphasized, chopping that out is doable, but WotC isn't joking. They want you to buy minis and their dungeon tiles. Not essential to play like Descent, but core to gameplay in a way at least equal to 3.x.
I thought I would pass along my experience from DnD Experience back in February/March. I wrote this up right after the weekend ended in the Yahoo Group my DnD group uses. In interests of full disclosure, most of the group is not interested in moving to 4e, primarily due to cost. I personally am more interested in it since this playtest than I was when WoTC first announced it. I've also removed the names of my DnD group's names.
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[Group members] and I participated in this year's DnD Experience gaming convention on Saturday. I also played the 4th edition version of DnD Miniatures, which is now called DDM 2.0. [Group members and] I played preview events from a new 4th edition RPGA campaign called Living Forgotten Realms. I had time to play one Delve event and I also wandered around the con to see the demo of the new DnD Digital Initiative character creator and online gaming table. What follows will be some of my impressions and experiences. I very much invite comments from the others as well.
After arriving at oh-dark hundred at the hotel in Crystal City, [Group member] and I found the mustering area for the morning Living Forgotten Realms (LFR) event, called Scalegloom Hall. The 5 hour adventure, written by Mike Mearls, was an increasingly more difficult series of combat events clearly intended to highlight the changes to the combat system. Mearls, in his blog on the Gleemax site, adds that he put in the boss creature (a 4th level black dragon with 280 hit points) to prove that 4th edition is every bit as lethal to player characters as 3rd edition (apparently that's a complaint that he's heard.) That was certainly true in our case.
In the party that participated in the Saturday morning event, I played a 1st level half-elf female warlock named Tira, while [Group Member] layed a male human cleric named Erais. I like the warlock player class and wanted to try it out. I put a zip file of pdfs of all the player classes on this web site. It's worth checking them out because you get a good idea of some of the changes underway. The first couple of events of the adventure were pretty straightforward combat event...kicking kobold butt. I think we were through the first 2 or 3 combats in a little more than an hour. The last 3 combats took the remainder of the little over 3 hours. The third combat encounter opened with the party coming into a large room with 4 sarcophagus placed in a square around a pit of some type of green slime. Along one wall were two platforms with a 10' double door in the middle. Four kobolds were arrayed along the top of the platforms. One of the kobolds was holding a green slimy ball attached to the ceiling with a long rope. It appeared that the ball was intended to be swung at skulls placed along the tops of the sarcophagus, but we never let it get that far. [Group member's] cleric, on his initiative, used his encounter power of "cause fear" to send the kobold holding the ball fleeing. The ball swung to another kobold, who immediately ate a number of ranged attacks, including an eldrich blast from my warlock. At that point, while a few more kobolds joined the fun, the rest of the combat was never in doubt.
The penultimate fight also went badly for the kobolds, but was a bit more interesting for us. This fight featured a wyrm priest (black dragon), his two beefy bodyguard kobolds, 4 elite kobold warriors with firepots, gluepots and stinkpots, and 4 cannon fodder spear carrying kobolds following around a large boulder that presented us with a bit of an 'Indiana Jones' moment as it rolled around the room we were in. The wyrm priest was foreshadowing, but we didn't recognize it at the time. Among his abilities was an acidic breath weapon that required a couple of healing surges from the paladin and the cleric to allow the paladin and the fighter to keep the pressure on the priest and his bodyguards. The rest of the part cleaned up the elite warriors and the boulder fanboys. My warlock was able, eventually, to contribute long range firepower to the priest fight, while the ranger, almost single-handedly, used his bow to take down the first line defenders. None of that really fully prepared us for the final room.
The final room contained a very difficult test, a 4th level black dragon with 280 hit points. It was a large creature who could, among other things, call darkness almost at will, and had an acidic breath weapon that did pretty significant initial and ongoing damage. The DM running this event made a couple of rule decisions that made things harder for us than I think the event intended. The dragon's darkness spell, as decided by the DM, was essentially a 'deeper darkness' spell that couldn't be dispelled by the wizard's at will light spell. That magical darkness made it exceptionally difficult for anybody to hit the dragon, and the high AC and other defences also contributed to us only bloodying (getting it to below half it's hit points) before it finally killed all of us (except for one character that fled the dungeon.) My warlock's shadow walk kept it alive for awhile as it moved about the room in concealment, but my poor rolls meant that I did very little damage to it before it killed me. The poor rolls also contributed to my inability to use my daily ability -- the 'Curse of the Dark Dream', which if it had gotten off, would have contributed 3d8+4 psychic damage, and allowed me to slide it 3 squares into a corner, to prevent it from moving. According to the blogs, parties that managed to critical strike on daily powers, and keep the creature flanked, usually did pretty well. As it was, almost the entire party got hit with the breathe weapon right at the start. We got behind the dragon, and never caught up.
[Group member] and I played some DnD miniatures (DDM). We never did get into the true 4th edition DDM prerelease event, but the DDM league play had 4th edition cards for the Desert of Desolation league, so we were able to get a taste of the impact of the new rules. In a nutshell, the new rules simplify most combat adjudication, without limiting the options for ways to solve combat problems. This was also true of the RPG versions of the rule, once you got used to the different names for similar concepts. One example is the handling of difficulty classes for rolls involving fortitude, will, and reflex. Most straight combats involved rolls against the target's AC. Spells, powers, and exploits usually involved rolls against fortitude, will, or reflex defenses. For example, the warlock's basic attack was her use of eldritch blast. Eldritch blast is an attack at +4 vs Reflex (rather than AC) that deals 1d10+4 damage. Combined with a warlock's curse, the warlock can dish out 1d10+4+1d6 damage as a standard action.
Critical strikes automatically confirm and do max damage. Typically the fortitude, will and reflex defenses are a few points lower than
AC. [Group member] took off after awhile playing DDM, and I packed up to look at the DnD Insider Digital Initiative demo of the new electronic character generator and online gaming table.
The DnD Insider Digital Initiative includes the digital versions of Dragon and Dungeon e-zines, and the tools. The people doing the demonstrations stressed that they were pre-alpha, and were intended to give folks an idea of where things were headed. I agree with [group member] that the 3d version of the online gaming table might not be really necessary, but by and large, the tools looked pretty good. When completed, and for subscribers, they are to include a full database of the DnD 4th edition rules. Non-subcribers will see a reference to the book and page on which a specific rule, feat, power, exploit, etc are discussed.
One really fun event was the Dungeon Delve. These are 30 minute full out "how far can you get" combat dungeoneering games that usually resulted in total party kills. They are a blast. Here at DnD Experience, the Delves were run using 4th edition rules, so they were another opportunity to test drive 4th edition. The Delves also used the same pregenerated characters as during the LFR events. The action is fast and furious, and you win tokens depending on how far into the dungeon you get. The party I was on, made up scratch from people standing in the line, didn't really do so well. We only got into the second room before time ran out. It was still fun, and I would have liked to have participated in more Delve events. I plan to use Delve events to fill in time available at GenCon this summer.
The final event of the evening was an LFR adventure called 'Escape from Sembia.' [Group members] and I took on the roles of fighter, paladin, and ranger, respectively. Bill the DM was from the Seattle area. Two of the other guys were local, while one was Pittsburgh, I believe. The party meshed well, and the DM was really good, so we had a great time. This adventure was more 'traditional' than the 'Scalegloom Hall' event, in that there were more opportunities to use abilities and skills to advance the story, in addition to the combat encounters. I believe there were 3 combat encounters, and one skills-based encounter, the results of which the DM used to provide the party with a small advantage during the final encounter. The first combat encounter required the party to intercede to protect a contact from being mugged. Once that group was defeated, the combat encounter flowed directly into a non-combat encounter were the DM asked us to describe how we planned to use the abilities of our characters to allow us to escape from the town's authorities. I used the ranger's fey step ability to teleport out of sight, and then used my stealth abilities to slink out of town. The halfling paladin was able to use his halfling feat ability to 'Get Lost in a Crowd' to mingle with bystanders. The dwarf fighter took advantage of the warlock's fiery attack on a brewer's wagon to escape, as did the rest of the party. While escaping through the mountains, a group of undead attacked the party. The cleric learned through outstanding religious recall, as did the warlock, that among the undead the party faced was a boneshard skeleton. Boneshard skeletons explode for burst damage when attacked. The fighter was able to use his 'Tide of Iron' ability to push the boneshard off the trail and down a cliff, where it exploded harmlessly. The DM mentioned that a previous party almost TPK'd with the boneshard, because they hadn't realized that it would explode, and it pretty much decimated the party, when it eventually did so. The final boss combat was a tough fight against a wizards and his bodyguards, including a shadar kai wielding a spiked chain who had the ability to shift 6 squares, and attack three PCs. He lasted long enough to get an arrow in the head from my ranger before he died. The party successfully escaped from Sembia! This event ended at about midnight, and though we all were tired, I think everybody had had a great time.
My take on 4th edition? It's still DnD. It's a fairly significant change from 3rd edition. The DMs, all of whom are NDA'd playtesters, said that they enjoyed the new rule set, and believe the new game will be much easier for them to prepare. The combats were more straightforward, with less overall dicerolling (so I think they came off a bit faster than 3rd edition.) The abilities, powers, and exploits are really interesting, and it's clear to me that a 1st level adventure is a perfectly fun and playable game. As we got more comfortable with the changes to the rules, and the abilities of our characters, the combats got faster. It's not a table top version of an online MMORPG, at least not to me. I think the DnD Insider electronic stuff will be interesting, and I'll likely subscribe, at least for awhile. I'm now really looking forward to playing Delves at GenCon, and I'll be interested to play more 4th edition events there too.
Thanks for the comments Wurm! I hope to be able to finish off Escape from Sembia this Thursday or next. It's interesting that you didn't seem to get into a fight with a pack of Hobgoblins like my group did. Maybe it is because you passed the skill challenge? (The Warlock and Fighter in my group had really, REALLY terrible rolls for everything they tried to do!)
Thanks for the comments Wurm! I hope to be able to finish off Escape from Sembia this Thursday or next. It's interesting that you didn't seem to get into a fight with a pack of Hobgoblins like my group did. Maybe it is because you passed the skill challenge? (The Warlock and Fighter in my group had really, REALLY terrible rolls for everything they tried to do!)
My warlock had terrible rolls in the Scalegloom Hall event. The only reason I lasted as long as I did was the Shadow Walk ability.
Were the hobgoblins the bodyguards for the wizard during the last combat? If so, then yes, we encountered them. The successful skill challenge allowed us to see them early and set up for them (I think.) Our DM may have gone off script too...