Why do my posts taste so good to these boards? Must be the permanent cookie-flavored Everscent that pixie wizard cast on me....
ANYwhoo...I just got my hands on a Harrow Deck, from my FLGS, and I am going to try and use it in my Rise of the Runelords campaign. I noticed in Edge of Anarchy that each adventure in the Crimson Throne AP had an associated suit of cards associated with it. Has anyone come up with a similar association for the Rise of the Runelords adventures?
Since I am only three sessions into Burnt Offerings, I would like to have some stuff ready in case they PCs go to Madame Mvashti for guidance. One of the PCs and his NPC sister are Varisians, so I think they will do so. As the AP goes forward, I want to try and make the Harrow available as a resource for them. I might even let one of those characters acquire a deck of their own.
As always, all ideas and suggestions are welcome. Thanks in advance! :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
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I'm thinking about integrating the Harrow Deck into RotRL myself and so far I see three possiblities to to so:
General approach
Same as in CotCT: each adventure gets one of six abilities. There are several possibilities but I'd vote for:
Burnt Offerings: Str (let the fighters shine against those pesky goblins)
Skinsaw Murders: Cha (undeads, roleplaying interaction)
Hook Mountain: Dex (sneak,sneak, sneak into the Ogre Fortress)
Fortress of the Stone Giants: Int (knowledge checks in library)
Sins of the Saviors: Wis (lots of magic, lots of will saves(?) )
Xin-Shalast: Con (High-Altitude Action, Kharzoug spells)
Adventure-based approach
The description for EoA seems to indicate ability-related themes for each adventure. RotRL does not necessarily supports all of them, so you could basically chose to take what fits best even if that means to chose one ability more than one time. Suggestions:
Burnt Offerings: Cha
Skinsaw Murders: Cha
Hook Mountain: Dex or Str
Fortress of the Stone Giants: Int, Dex or Str
Sins of the Saviors: Wis, Dex, Con (save-boosting)
Xin-Shalast: Con
character-based/personalized approach
This is what I probably try to do. Instead of looking at what the adventure seems to suggest I look at what the SC may enjoy most.The party I run the adventures for consists of 2 barbarians, a bard, a cleric, a dragonfire adept and a wizard. Not much power-gaming involved, so I probably try to give them an extra boost for their strenghts rather then to help them overcoming their weaknesses. Meaning:
Burnt Offerings: Cha
Skinsaw Murders: Cha
Hook Mountain: Str
Fortress of the Stone Giants: Int or Str
Sins of the Saviors: Wis, Dex, Con (save-boosting)
Xin-Shalast: Con
The examples/suggestions are far away from being worked out as I haven't gone into the details of #4,5 and 6 so far. So you'll most probably will have to adapt them for your own needs.
regards, WQ
Have you considered how introducing the Harrow cards in the first AP will lessen their impact and "uniqueness" of them in the second AP?
Of course, if your not going to run the second AP, it makes no difference.
If you are, you may want to take the Harrow power out of the players hands and give it to the ancient Varisian women in Sandpoint (her name escapes me). She could give readings for a reasonable sum of coins, or favours, that give the bonus.
This way you can control the bonus and use the readings to foreshadow events, adding "fluff". It may also get the characters more excited about the harrow ability in the next AP.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Have you considered how introducing the Harrow cards in the first AP will lessen their impact and "uniqueness" of them in the second AP?
In all likelihood I'll be using the Harrow Deck in RotRL and I don't think it will lessen the impact of the cards in CotCT.
One of my players decided to play a Varisian fortune teller before the Harrow was announced. Now I'm not sure how I'm going to use the Harrow in RotRL. I doubt I'll use the Harrow in the same way it's used in CotCT but I think if my players grow accustomed to the cards they'll feel that the two arcs are connected even if the effects differ somewhat.
WormysQueue:
I like your suggestions under "General Approach" - this was what I was looking for ideas on, as I don't want to completely overshadow RotRL with the Harrow Deck (I just want to add some 'flavor'). Which leads me into...
All DMs are evil:
I haven't decided whether or not I would allow my party access to their own Harrow Deck. If I do, it will most likely be through the Varisian NPC in the party, so I can maintain more control of things (and keep the 'mystery' alive). :)
My main concern was for the 'connection' that Locke1520 alluded to. Madame Mvashti (the old fortuneteller in Sandpoint) is a perfect candidate to be a Harrower. I'm not 100% sure that I will run the Crimson Throne for the same group, but if I do I know they would wonder why she didn't have access to a deck, considering her status in the local Varisian community.
If I keep access to the deck strictly through Madame Mvashti, then that adds one more connection to Sandpoint for the PCs. I may just leave it at that, and see if the PCs seek her out.
Good points all around - keep 'em coming!
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
We're only a few sessions into my RotRL campaign. I think I am going to ditch Action Points and replace it with the Harrow Deck. I like the idea of using one stat per adventure as opposed to repeating stats. So I need to think some more about which stat should go where.
I like CON for 6.
Not sure if I like Dex for 3, not sure where else to put it.
STR seems to fit in both 3 and 4.
So in Burnt Offerings - if you decide to use Strength which encounters (or encounter sets do you think would be most appropriate for the 9 strength cards?
So far I've only decided on LE (the fiend) - the fight with Erylium...
Hmm... interesting! We didn't tackle the design of Runelords with the 6 ability scores as themes like we did with Crimson Throne, so it's thus tough to do a perfect match, but I DO love seeing the Harrow deck used with other adventures! YAY!
This is not a direct challenge to James, but a challenge to the community.
I have asked our Esteemed Editor-in-Chief if there will be support for Harrow in future AP's. He said, with good natured pragmatism, that it really depended on how much and how many people liked the Harrow Deck. And that included the sale of the Harrow Deck.
I love seeing it used with other Adventures too, and hope that people give it a chance so that it can be continued to be suppported beyond Crimson Throne.
OK - here goes and lets see if others agree or if they have better suggestions:
LG - The Paladin - Pre-bride Thistletop/Encounter with Gogmurt - bc despite him being an evil little goblin, he has been trying to do what was right for the goblins of Thistletop, including fighting the PC even thou he understands why they are there and that Rignugget is wrong in this case
NG - The Keep - Glassworks encounter w/goblins & Tsuto - bc the players need to keep centered and strong to deal with the horror of glass entombed peoples
CG - Encounter w/ Lyrie - Freedom from what chains you, granted she is a evil .... but she was freed from her obsession of joining the Pathfinders, even if she didn't want that
LN - The Forge - Encounter with Orik - the only true mercenary on the goblin side, a way for the PC to increase their own strength by adding him to the mix
N - The Bear - Fight w/ Korvus - Hero of Goblin tribe to mutated freak of Erylium, the only thing that has stayed constant is his strength
CN - The Uprising - Ripnugget - The man who has lost control of his power base bc he saw the path to more power
LE - The Fiend - Erylium - She is a fiend, easy 'noff
NE - The Beating - Nualia - The person who has been so destroyed by what happened that she had a mental break, almost the poster child of the card
CE - The Cyclone - Malfesnekor - Cause if my PC are dumb enough to tangle with him at third level he'll tear through them just like a cyclone
So any variant suggestions?
I decided to go with STR for Burnt Offerings. My players were getting ready to hit Thistletop by the time I got my Harrow Deck and there was a break in the action for a reading with Madame Mavashti. So all of the encounters are going to be from Thistletop.
I figured the "chosen bonus" should be +2 to STR rolls/skill checks and +1 to damage for the encounter. I need to figure out the following cards, limited to Thistletop encounters:
The Uprising: Birdcrunchers in the brambles?
The Big Sky: Tentamort?
The Beating: The fight in the throne room?
The Bear: Bruthazmus?
The Forge: Nualia?
The Keep: Malfeshnekor?
The players also have 3 Harrow pts. each from the spread. I was going to let them spend the points on STR rerolls, a damage bonus for an encounter, or a swim/climb/jump bonus for an encounter.
LN - The Forge - Encounter with Orik - the only true mercenary on the goblin side, a way for the PC to increase their own strength by adding him to the mix
I like the idea of Orik representing diversity of strength.
CN - The Uprising - Ripnugget - The man who has lost control of his power base bc he saw the path to more power
Not sure I follow you, but the throne room fight could be "an overwhelming groundswell"
NE - The Beating - Nualia - The person who has been so destroyed by what happened that she had a mental break, almost the poster child of the card
Nualia did get beat on from all sides. But I was thinking more about the PCs getting beat on.
CE - The Cyclone - Malfesnekor - Cause if my PC are dumb enough to tangle with him at third level he'll tear through them just like a cyclone
Cyclone is a good match for Malfeshnekor, but none of my PCs drew that card. I definately want to assign him to a card a player drew.
Wow - lots of new stuff here since the last time I peeked in - and we got a "YAY" from Doc Jacobs too! :)
I like chavamana's breakdown of encounters as well. I may yoink those and use them if my PCs do go and get a Harrow reading from Madame Mvashti. They are getting restless though - only gaming once every two weeks (and only for 3-4 hours at a time) has them feeling like things are going too slowly (I'm trying to run all the stuff needed to kill time between the Swallowtail Festival and the meeting with Shalelu). They are ready for another full-on fight, so this may have to wait...
I guess I'll just have to be very productive and focused tomorrow night if I want it all to happen - time to go get more Red Bull!! :P
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
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I used the General approach, based on what I felt was the nature of the enemies and the theme of the adventure.
Burnt Offerings: Dex (The bad guys strike out of nowhere, and suddenly Sandpoint is unbalanced by the struggle.)
Skinsaw Murders: Wis (The villains here don't want to be seen; it takes wisdom to unravel the mystery of the Skinsaw Murders.)
Hook Mountain: Con (Ogres so deformed, it's a wonder they're alive!)
Fortress of the Stone Giants: Str (Mokmurian seeks to crush Varisia with a brutal army of giants.)
Sins of the Saviors: Cha (Runeforge will reveal the evils in the PCs souls and test their personalities.)
Xin-Shalast: Int (None smarter than Karzoug!)
Obviously, there's no perfect match, but I think this is pretty good. I won't be using a magic Harrow deck anyways (I'll just be doing a straight-forward reading), so in the unlikely event I ever do run the second AP, it shouldn't decrease the coolness too much.
Creative Director
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I used the General approach, based on what I felt was the nature of the enemies and the theme of the adventure.
Burnt Offerings: Dex (The bad guys strike out of nowhere, and suddenly Sandpoint is unbalanced by the struggle.)
Skinsaw Murders: Wis (The villains here don't want to be seen; it takes wisdom to unravel the mystery of the Skinsaw Murders.)
Hook Mountain: Con (Ogres so deformed, it's a wonder they're alive!)
Fortress of the Stone Giants: Str (Mokmurian seeks to crush Varisia with a brutal army of giants.)
Sins of the Saviors: Cha (Runeforge will reveal the evils in the PCs souls and test their personalities.)
Xin-Shalast: Int (None smarter than Karzoug!)Obviously, there's no perfect match, but I think this is pretty good. I won't be using a magic Harrow deck anyways (I'll just be doing a straight-forward reading), so in the unlikely event I ever do run the second AP, it shouldn't decrease the coolness too much.
This looks like a pretty solid setup to me!
My principle game related concern regarding harrow decks & readings is that bad guys are as much 'forces with destinies' who ought to gain benefits as well.
I don't agree. There's nothing wrong with making the Harrow bonus exclusive to the PCs.
I can't imagine myself sitting alone and doing a Harrowing for a boss so I know how many harrow points he has. Seems kind of pointless unless you have a lot of free time.
I suppose you could give some kind of bonus points for bosses to use if you feel you need to balance things out. (Like you can do with Action Points). But to assume that Karzoug is going to demand a Harrow Deck so that he can play solitaire for an extra +2 is just silly. He burned 5 wishes on all his stats and has dozens of ioun stones embedded in his fracking flesh. This guy is already hard core to the max. He doesn't need harrow points!
Mokmurian or Xenesha or Lyrie don't need Harrow Points either. None of them are Varisian, so why would the bother to pick up the skill? How would they know that the deck can grant bonuses? Metagaming from the Players is bad enough, I'm not sure I want to let my NPCs metagame as well!
The thing that makes Harrow Points interesting is they way the bonuses tie into the theme of the adventure and the images discussed during the reading. It's an extra role playing hook for the players that adds some fun to the game. The bonuses are just gravy.
I think if you let the bad guys start spending harrow points, it just cheapens the whole thing. I roll behind a screen anyway, so if I need a re-roll for a boss for plot purposes, I just take it.
I had the impression that Varisia was a geographical area of some extent which would encompass the backgrounds of Mokmurian, Xanesha, and Lyrie...
You are confusing the geographical region of Varisia with the Human Culture of the "Varisian People". The Harrow Deck is not just a divination tool, it's a cultural icon of the Varisian people.
Mokmurian, and Xenesha aren't even human, and that is the main reason why I don't think they should use the Harrow Deck. If they want to divine something, they will use Giant Magic or Lamia Magic. Unless you let the NPCs "meta-game", they would have little or no reason to suspect that the Harrow Deck is any more or less effective than the divination methods they are used to.
I don't think Lyrie is Varisian, judging by her description. And Karzoug is old enough to pre-date the entire Varisian culture. I'm sure he would hold it in contempt. And I don't think he can take a deck of cards where he is right now anyway.
So I don't think any of those villains would use the Harrow Deck. I just don't think it matches their style. From a game balance perspective, if you want to give the major villains some bonus points for the big fight, that's fine. But I don't think the Harrow Deck is the way to do it.
I suppose Mammy Graul has some human blood, although I'm not sure what kind. It could be Varisian, but I'm not going to bother trying to look it up right now. So she might be a possible Harrow user. If the PCs were ever to get into conflict with some NPCs with Varisian blood, then maybe the Harrow could come up. But the most likely Varisians to get into conflict with are Sczarni, and many of the fortune tellers don't like them. Madame Mvashti spits on them. You can get away with that if you've mystic theurge levels.
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If you are perceiving harrow as being part of 'Varisian culture' (something which I think you are implying ought to be restricted to a subset of humans) does it follow that all PCs for Crimson Throne (or other paths) who are not from this race and cultural background could also be excluded from deriving any benefits from harrow readings?
I don't think so, it's just that as a non-varisian person you wouldn't normally do those readings yourself. If you stem from another culture you'd probably prefer divination methods developed in your home country.
Luckily it has been said before that Varisians are nearly everywhere to find on Golarion so if you want to include the Deck in other campaigns it shouldn't mean too much of a stretch to invent a varisian fortuneteller who does this for the PCs.
Hook Mountain needs Cha. Anything with Mammy Graul in it has to be about Charisma ;-P
If you are perceiving harrow as being part of 'Varisian culture' (something which I think you are implying ought to be restricted to a subset of humans) does it follow that all PCs for Crimson Throne (or other paths) who are not from this race and cultural background could also be excluded from deriving any benefits from harrow readings?
I'm not saying that non-Varisians can't benefit from a Harrowing, particularly if your talking about a party of PCs that has been "adopted" by a Varisian fortune teller.
What I'm saying is that normally, only Varisians actually perform Harrowings. So people from other cultures would need to go to a Varisisan to get a reading. How likely they are to do this and believe in the benefits would vary from person to person unless you are meta-gaming.
In my campaign, the only reason I would allow a non-Varisian to use the Harrow Deck is if it was a PC who wanted to learn the skill from a Varisian that was willing to teach them. I wouldn't bother to create any non-Varisian NPCs that use the Harrow deck. I just don't see a need to spread the use of the Harrow deck to every race and creature type in Golarion. Anyone can benefit, but only Varisians use the technique.
Most of the villains in RotRL are non-human, monsters, undead, or otherwise too twisted to have access to a Varisian fortune teller unless they kidnapped them. I don't care how much "destiny" they have. It's unlikely that any Varisian fortune tellers are going to step up and give a reading to any of the big bads in RotRL.