The Vatican has just added 7 new deadly sins to the list: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336330,00.html
This opens up so many new questions:
How are the Runelords going to take this?
When will we see the Pathfinder AP on the coming of the Runelord of pedophilia? (drug trafficing would also make a good AP)
Does this answer the abortion debate?
How will James and Eric take to the news?
Im tingling with anticipation...
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Linkified:
According to Pope B:
The new deadly sins include polluting, genetic engineering, being obscenely rich, drug dealing, abortion, pedophilia and causing social injustice.
This seems completely unneccesary: pollution can be classified as sloth or greed, obscene wealth is ALREADY part of greed, drug dealing is also greed as well as gluttony, pedophilia is lust, and "social injustice" is pretty broad. The part about abortion isn't very new, and genetic engineering makes sense, since the church is pretty finicky about "messing with God's plan", a part of the abortion debacle.
As for how it affects Golarion... it doesn't. The Sinlords were established well before this, and they do what THEY want to.
Creative Director
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If anyone still remembers these new seven sins a dozen or so centuries from now, when they've had about the same amount of time to suffuse and become part of the shared world culture and religion and movie stars... THEN I'll consider revising the runelords. Until then, I'll be treating this news story as I treat most strange news stories, with passing interest and a shake of the head before heading back to work.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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If anyone still remembers these new seven sins a dozen or so centuries from now, when they've had about the same amount of time to suffuse and become part of the shared world culture and religion and movie stars... THEN I'll consider revising the runelords. Until then, I'll be treating this news story as I treat most strange news stories, with passing interest and a shake of the head before heading back to work.
Well, I'll give you that "allowing genetic manipulations which alter DNA or compromise embryos" doesn't quite have the impact that "wrath" or "gluttony" does. These new sins just don't roll off the tongue. What these sins need is a press agent. Someone who can dress them down a bit, make them more memorable.
We've been chatting about this very subject.
Pretty much every news article I've seen on this topic shows a total lack of understanding of Catholic theology, and not much interest in researching it.
The "Seven Deadly Sins" are actually regarded as *categories* of sin, not as an exhaustive list. Every sin can, in theory, be traced back to one or more of those seven basic character flaws.
A "mortal sin" is a sin so severe that, if the sinner does not repent and seek forgiveness, his soul will go to Hell at death.
The "deadly sins" are not in and of themselves "mortal sins." You will not go to Hell because you swore at the TV set when your football team lost (wrath), or made a third trip to the taco bar (gluttony), or imagined what Seoni might look like without any clothes on...er, ahem (lust).
At least I hope not, or I'm in big trouble.
If anyone still remembers these new seven sins a dozen or so centuries from now, when they've had about the same amount of time to suffuse and become part of the shared world culture and religion and movie stars... THEN I'll consider revising the runelords. Until then, I'll be treating this news story as I treat most strange news stories, with passing interest and a shake of the head before heading back to work.
He's admitted it! He will live for many centuries!
Or at least work for many centuries.
[paraphrase] I WILL LIVE 4EVAH!!!! [/paraphrase]He's admitted it! He will live for many centuries!
Or at least work for many centuries.
11th-level caster? [X]
Craft Wondrous Item? [X]Willing to give up soul for eternal life and power? [ ]
As an aside to Dr Jacobs' iminent journey to lichdom, will we be seeing a Rise of the Pollution Runelord due to Sandpoint's Junker's Edge because of this papal mandate? Are the goblins who steal from the garbage piles actually divine emissaries working on the side of good? Are my PCs going to the Nine Hells because they've got obscenely phat stacks of loot? I NEED TO KNOW!
Tremble all ye mortals at the Rise of Pig-Pen the Runelord of Polution!
Those sins stink.
And make no sense. If you lust after a child, will you go to hell twice? If lust is already a deadly sin, what to call paedophilia?
I think he put that part about rich people in because he has a grudge against Bill Gates. Just because he got a couple of Blue Screens, Billy must go to hell.
If anyone still remembers these new seven sins a dozen or so centuries from now, when they've had about the same amount of time to suffuse and become part of the shared world culture and religion and movie stars... THEN I'll consider revising the runelords. Until then, I'll be treating this news story as I treat most strange news stories, with passing interest and a shake of the head before heading back to work.
I'll remind you.
I don't want to think about a Runelord of Abortion, though. Just weird. And Paedophilia?
Genetic Engineering is a deadly sin. HA! So every farmer that inbreeds their animals or purposely cross-pollinates their trees is going to hell. Nice!
Genetic Engineering is a deadly sin. HA!
IIRC, Most corn is GE. Be careful what you eat! :)
--Ray.|
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Genetic Engineering is a deadly sin. HA! So every farmer that inbreeds their animals or purposely cross-pollinates their trees is going to hell. Nice!
And "when there is no more room in hell the dead will walk the Earth" *sighs* Guess we'd better all start stocking up for zombie apocalpyse, thanks to the Vatican it'll be here a lot sooner than expected now!
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Genetic Engineering is a deadly sin. HA! So every farmer that inbreeds their animals or purposely cross-pollinates their trees is going to hell. Nice!And "when there is no more room in hell the dead will walk the Earth" *sighs* Guess we'd better all start stocking up for zombie apocalpyse, thanks to the Vatican it'll be here a lot sooner than expected now!
*begins stockpiling ammo and food*
I knowed this day wood come, I bin tellin' folks fer years!
That's so bizarre. How did I not hear about this a year ago?
So is the Vatican about to retroactively excommunicate Gregor Mendel, one of their own, who did all those "debatable" things with the pea plants?
With the rest of the list, it includes some of the sins that were originally in the seven deadly sins but were dropped in favor of other ones. For example, "Luxuria" used be on the list, but was replaced by "Lust."
Personally, I would have just smushed Envy and Greed into one and made room for Luxury in the original line up.
Pedophilia is pretty easily covered by Lust. Pollution can be split by Sloth and Greed.
Abortion? Well, play Solomon and put it somewhere between Lust and Sloth. But if you do that, you better put not using condoms on Sloth too.
Of course, the argument can also be made to put Luxury under Gluttony and have done with it.
No reason to retweak the seven at this date.
Press agents? They already have them, or at least I think I remember them all being the villains on Captain Planet.
And frankly, Dr Blight was smoking hot. I <3 her. Or perhaps just Meg Ryan voicing an evil geneticist. Or both.
Ooo, thread necromancy!
Anyway, I claim this as proof that religion was created by man, not God. :P
Perhaps religion was created by mankind's unconscious mind. It seems instinctual, and there has always been the belief in gods, even nine thousand years ago when Mesopotamia came together as the first (known) human civilization.
Genetic Engineering is a deadly sin. HA! So every farmer that inbreeds their animals or purposely cross-pollinates their trees is going to hell. Nice!
Yeah. I wonder if Gregor Mendel stays in heaven, or if the pope's decision is retroactive? Hopefully the grandfather clause prevails.
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I think he put that part about rich people in because he has a grudge against Bill Gates. Just because he got a couple of Blue Screens, Billy must go to hell.
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No, Kae, he's not going to hell for the Blue Screens, he's going to hell for Windows Vista, and Windows XP, and Windows 2000, and Windows 98, and THEN he's going to hell for the Blue Screen and the Red Ring.
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No, Kae, he's not going to hell for the Blue Screens, he's going to hell for Windows Vista, and Windows XP, and Windows 2000, and Windows 98, and THEN he's going to hell for the Blue Screen and the Red Ring.I think he put that part about rich people in because he has a grudge against Bill Gates. Just because he got a couple of Blue Screens, Billy must go to hell.
[
And Clippy! Mustn't forget he's responsible for Clippy.
These new sins seem so off for me. Partly the reason why the origonal 7 deadly sins were considered dealy because they were also common sins, or sins from which others can be derived from.
While just about everyone might fall to greed or envy in their lives, I'm fairly certain quite a few of us are able to get by without trafficing drugs or touching small children.
And quite frankly those would be the silliest runelords I've ever seen.
Runelord: "Hi, I have supernatural abilities that let me touch children."
Adventuring Party: "Erm..we're adults...what exactly can you do to us?"
Runelord: "I don't know...I'm thinking...hey that halfing kinda looks..."
*ensure horrifying boss fight*
Runelord: "Behold my ability to be blind stinking rich!"
*Party slays the runelord*
DM: "Way to break the wealth-by-level guides".
Runelord: "You shall now face the wrath of the runelord of abortions!"
Adventuring Party: "What do you do exactly?"
Runelord: "Erm....kill off any living creature I produce?"
Adventuring Party: "So not only do you not really have any offensive powers, you won't have much in the way of minions either?"
Runelord: "...."
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Noo, seriously guys, they aren't new 7 deadly sins, whoever wrote the story mislabeled them, they are now officially mortal sins, meaning if you do them and do not repent you go to hell.
Here is the breakdown:
Venial: A little white lie, or something
Mortal: Killing a baby.
The 7 deadly Sins are classifications of Venial and Mortal Sins, like the topics in JEOPARDY! Under "Greed" there are both venial and mortal sins, so now, according to the Pope, Amassing great wealth is a mortal sin, falling under the category of "Greed".
Comprende?
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Noo, seriously guys, they aren't new 7 deadly sins, whoever wrote the story mislabeled them, they are now officially mortal sins, meaning if you do them and do not repent you go to hell.
Here is the breakdown:
Venial: A little white lie, or something
Mortal: Killing a baby.
The 7 deadly Sins are classifications of Venial and Mortal Sins, like the topics in JEOPARDY! Under "Greed" there are both venial and mortal sins, so now, according to the Pope, Amassing great wealth is a mortal sin, falling under the category of "Greed".
Comprende?
Comprende. Although given the wealth of the Catholic Church, it does strike me as a little hypocritical that he can complain about other people's wealth. Alternatively, the Pope's going to Hell for breaking his own mortal sin which would be deliciously ironic. ;-)
don't want to think about a Runelord of Abortion, though.
Say Hello to my .
I don't think any of those are sins.You don't think pedophilia is a sin? I mean I can see the rest of them not being considered sins, but really, you don't think pedophilia is a sin really? Well unless this is just you saying that you don't believe in sin as a concept.
Let's play the game, shall we? We're talking about [u]sin[/u], not crime. It's a crime to drive faster than the marked speed limit. It's not a sin. Why? Basically because there's a lack of biblical scripture dictating you limit your speed.
From there one has to ask what the bible says about sex with children. One also has to ask what the bible has to say about what defines a child. How old, basically.
While the Catholic faith gives the reigning Pope great latitude to tell them what God things about things, that still leaves a lot of other people without answers.
What I'm saying is that while it's a crime (and a terrible one), and while it probably should be a sin, it likely isn't. Simply put, back in the days when gods were regularly talking to prophets and dictating their wishes, they strangely didn't have the foresight to anticipate our future needs. Despite being all-knowing, they didn't dictate very clearly. "Downloading copyrighted MP3 files off the Internet is naughty and you'll go to Hell for it. Yeah, okay Moses, I get it... you don't know what that means. Sure. Just write it down. Right. No word for Internet in Aramaic. Fine. I'll show you how to make some neat scribbles that will make sense to someone some day."
Fact is we're without divine guidance these days and we have to look to our own selves to govern our behaviour. Hence crime versus sin.
I'm not done. Tell me this. If a pedo died a week before the Pope expanded the sins list, did he go to Hell? If so, then what's the value in the list when it's evidently fallible and incomplete? Next, why did it take until 2008 for God to let the Pope know His wishes on the matter? Was He on the fence for thousands of years and has finally made His decision? What I'm saying in this paragraph - and it's an uncomfortable thought - is that the concept of sin is effectively rendered meaningless. Conduct yourself with decency and conform to social norms. That's it. If God can't cope with that, He'll need to be a little less... absent and capricious.
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I don't think any of those are sins.You don't think pedophilia is a sin? I mean I can see the rest of them not being considered sins, but really, you don't think pedophilia is a sin really? Well unless this is just you saying that you don't believe in sin as a concept.
Let's play the game, shall we? We're talking about [u]sin[/u], not crime. It's a crime to drive faster than the marked speed limit. It's not a sin. Why? Basically because there's a lack of biblical scripture dictating you limit your speed.
From there one has to ask what the bible says about sex with children. One also has to ask what the bible has to say about what defines a child. How old, basically.
Well there is the fact that any sex out of wedlock is a sin. So unless you've got parents marrying off their kids (which does happen in some rare instances but not the vast majority of the time) you have it as a sin there.
Then also isn't there a line in scripture that basically says, if you say it I'll uphold it? (I think it was quoted in the movie Dogma, not sure if it's real or not)
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Then also isn't there a line in scripture that basically says, if you say it I'll uphold it? (I think it was quoted in the movie Dogma, not sure if it's real or not)
There is a scripture where Jesus tells Peter that on this rock (Peter) I will build my church and what ever Peter and his successors bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven and whatever they loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven. Catholics believe that the Pope is the successor to Peter and all the power that Christ and God gave Peter is bestowed on the Pope when he is ordained.
Quietly backs out of the thread.
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I don't think any of those are sins.You don't think pedophilia is a sin? I mean I can see the rest of them not being considered sins, but really, you don't think pedophilia is a sin really? Well unless this is just you saying that you don't believe in sin as a concept.
I don't believe being attracted to people under age X is any more of a sin than being attracted to people over age X.
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I don't believe being attracted to people under age X is any more of a sin than being attracted to people over age X.
The statement above is true.
Who is to say what what is sin? Perspective differs individually so any number of opinions can be produced.
Religious beliefs may affect those of that faith or like-minded people but should not be applied to any other mass collective; it is not truly representative.
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I don't believe being attracted to people under age X is any more of a sin than being attracted to people over age X.I don't think any of those are sins.You don't think pedophilia is a sin? I mean I can see the rest of them not being considered sins, but really, you don't think pedophilia is a sin really? Well unless this is just you saying that you don't believe in sin as a concept.
The age of consent has changed considerably over the last 100 years...actually the fact that women have to give their consent has changed over the last 100 years as well...
girls would be married off before they were teenagers in the past...it's a perspective thing, I knew a guy in the Navy who had a 14 year old wife, because she had parental consent for her to be married...(he was 17 when he entered the Navy)
If I'm not mistaken Jews consider their children adults at 13? That's what Bat mitzvah (sp?) and Bar Mitzvah (sp?) are about correct?
The original story from Fox News really contorted itself to make this look like something that it was not. This was from a discussion that Pope Benedict had with the bishops about how there is a lack of a sense of sin when doing things that are "modern," that were not thought of in previous ages.
The sins that were called out aren't "new," but they are sins that many Catholics do not consider to be sins, which the Vatican does.
The Seven Deadly sins have never been a dogmatic part of the church that delineated what was and wasn't a mortal sin. They were a popular shorthand of their day used as a spiritual teaching tool. It was no more Church canon than Dante's Inferno or Paradise Lost.
Pope Benedict isn't "creating" new sins, so much as elaborating that, according to the Church, these things are considered sins.
Fox News excerpted the original article, which also was not originally in English, and put their own spin on it, trying to make it look like the Pope is creating Church doctrine when he was discussing the modern condition.
I respect that many of you don't agree with the Church on this, nor do you agree to their authority, and that you have other beliefs. I'm actually glad to hear dissenting opinions on matters like this, to know what other people are thinking. On the other hand, there is a line between disagreeing with something, and even having reasons for it, and actively denigrating it. I would respectfully ask that you try to keep in mind that for some people, this relates to their own personal beliefs.
Okay, I'm going to address the elephant in the room...that is the Runelord of Social Injustice. We all know half-orcs get paid less for doing the same work as a human, and the vertically challenged (dwarves) are forced to live in the underground ghettos. Halflings constantly complain about being called what their name implies: That they are half a thing. I see this as something the PCs (or the Politically Correct) will have to stop once and for all.
PS. I understand that the article misrepresents the issue, but it's still fun to think about in regards to Golarion history. Not meant to offend.
No, Kae, he's not going to hell for the Blue Screens, he's going to hell for Windows Vista, and Windows XP, and Windows 2000, and Windows 98, and THEN he's going to hell for the Blue Screen and the Red Ring.
Nah. Vista's not that bad (once you turn off UAC), XP is actually quite good, and I liked 2000, too.
Of the old 16 bit systems, 98 was the best.
If he goes to hell for any Windows, he goes to hell for Win 95 (especially Win 95a) and Millenium.
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Okay, I'm going to address the elephant in the room...that is the Runelord of Social Injustice. We all know half-orcs get paid less for doing the same work as a human, and the vertically challenged (dwarves) are forced to live in the underground ghettos. Halflings constantly complain about being called what their name implies: That they are half a thing. I see this as something the PCs (or the Politically Correct) will have to stop once and for all.
PS. I understand that the article misrepresents the issue, but it's still fun to think about in regards to Golarion history. Not meant to offend.
Bah! Dwarves are NOT vertically challenged. We are the PERFECT height. Those other races are vertically excessive and THAT should be a mortal sin.
As to who defines excessively rich? I would say the excessively rich get to define it, as they are the only ones to have achieved it.
These new sins seem so off for me. Partly the reason why the origonal 7 deadly sins were considered dealy because they were also common sins, or sins from which others can be derived from.
I'm sure there's a good 3e/4e analogy in there.
While just about everyone might fall to greed or envy in their lives, I'm fairly certain quite a few of us are able to get by without trafficing drugs or touching small children.
I agree totally with the small children thing, but with the way things are these days, it's hard to get by *without* trafficking drugs. And weapons. And, of course, smut. Illegal fruit, too. There's big money in that. And do you know how much money there is in peddling meat to spouses who pretend to be vegetarians?
Runelord: "Hi, I have supernatural abilities that let me touch children."
Adventuring Party: "Erm..we're adults...what exactly can you do to us?"
Runelord: "I don't know...I'm thinking...hey that halfing kinda looks..."
*ensure horrifying boss fight*
Well, there was a runelord whose power was *not* doing anything. And one who didn't really do anything, either, but complains that others have more nice things then himself.
Runelord: "Behold my ability to be blind stinking rich!"
That was Karzoug. He did that by turning people who pissed him off into gold.
Runelord: "You shall now face the wrath of the runelord of abortions!"
Adventuring Party: "What do you do exactly?"
"I got them to change the laws. Abortion is now possible up to 1000 years after nativity. Consider yourselves aborted, you rugrats"