You Wayne Raynolds-bashers never know what they want: First, everything is too muscular, then, they're not muscular enough.Heh.
It's a minor quibble from a representational standpoint, when all's said. It's not like I refuse to buy RPG products because the artwork isn't "realistic," after all!
I wasn't really serious. Just struck me as funny, after the endless hours of listening to my friend raving madly at Wayne "The Adversary" Raynolds, ranting about oversized muscles with foam coming from his mouth ("This Hound Archon's stats say he has strength 15, but his picture says he has strength 25 or more! This is Madness"), someone comes along and comments on one of Wayne's creations being not muscular enough.
It's all true except maybe the foam, and he might not have raved quite as madly. He still has a bone to pick with WAR. He doesn't refuse to buy anything with his art in it (I suspect he might seek them out to have something to complain about ;-)).
So it's all in good fun!
Creative Director
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I wasn't really serious. Just struck me as funny, after the endless hours of listening to my friend raving madly at Wayne "The Adversary" Raynolds, ranting about oversized muscles with foam coming from his mouth ("This Hound Archon's stats say he has strength 15, but his picture says he has strength 25 or more! This is Madness"), someone comes along and comments on one of Wayne's creations being not muscular enough.
You should point out to your friend that Huge vipers have the Run feat just to see what happens.
Or that the roper is a magical beast.
Or that the derro, a "half human, half dwarf," is a monstrous humanoid, and as such can't be a lich.
Or that a 60-foot-long sperm whale has less Hit Dice than a 12 foot long dire tiger.
Good times!
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So it would be bad roleplaying to let her use it when she wasn't raging?Because you're looking at numbers and not roleplay.
From a roleplaying standpoint, she's no longer "dragging" the sword around anymore. The added strength lets her off set the added weight of the sword and wield it like she's meant to in the eyes of those around here.
No, it's be bad roleplaying to play like she's carrying around a pillow.
Maybe the problem with the huge sword (vs. flying dragons) has less to do with a lack of "realism" than it does with a significant part of the audience being SICK AND TIRED OF EVERY SINGLE SWORD BEING SEVENTEEN TIMES MORE MASSIVE THAN THE LAST ONE. Yes, I know all caps are rude, but come on. It's not so much just the "unrealism"; it's the unending repetetiveness that gets to me, and I suspect there would be just as much griping if every piece of art had a more violent fireball than the last piece ("fire is 'kewl!' More fire next month!").
Roman soldiers used short swords because they were extremely efficient killing swords. Yes, I know, bigger swords are supposed to be "kewl" (in my mind, the opposite of "cool"), but they've been about played out, and the "arms race" of "Ooh... this month's is so much BIGGER than last month's!" is getting a bit tired, and, if I might be so bold, is starting to smack more than a bit of overcompensation for something else. (Yes, I noticed the seemingly inadequate lengths of Valeros' blades... but did anyone look at how wide they were?)
When does it all end? Next cover, will we have someone dragging a blade that's the length of a football field, because a Large bastard sword is no longer big enough? Honestly, one giant sword every six months or so would be a neat change, and would go over pretty well. But requiring every sword to be "super ginormous" is just getting silly.
Obviously my comments don't speak for the publishers. If swords that will soon be the size of the Sears Tower sell more magazines (er, "books"), then have at it. But let's take a minute to look at why there's really the backlash that there is.
So it would be bad roleplaying to let her use it when she wasn't raging?
No, that's what the -2 penalty is for.
If it bothers you that much, think of it as power attacking for 2, since a large Bastard sword(2d8), on average, does 2 more damage than a medium greatsword(2d6).
Is it a sub-optimal weapon choice? Heck yes. Is it a flavorful weapon choice? Heck yes.
Fluff > crunch
Roman soldiers used short swords because they were extremely efficient killing swords.
That, and they didn't have the metallurgy technology to make longer swords.
Seems giants are the same situation, seeing as how the barbarian's sword isn't any longer than a medium bastard sword, just four times as wide.
That, and they didn't have the metallurgy technology to make longer swords. Seems giants are the same situation, seeing as how the barbarian's sword isn't any longer than a medium bastard sword, just four times as wide.
True enough, but see the quote about Valeros. Just because it's "thicker" instead of "longer" doesn't change the main point that overly-massive swords are getting to be a drag (pun intended there).
Also: see here; the longer swords of the post-Roman dark ages were at a time of declining metallurgical ability.
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Honestly, one giant sword every six months or so would be a neat change, and would go over pretty well. But requiring every sword to be "super ginormous" is just getting silly.
If you consider Valeros to have giant swords... then we had two giant sword wielders so far. Considering that this is the 9th iconic... that's eight months between each other.
That, and they didn't have the metallurgy technology to make longer swords.
No. Romans could have made longsword if they wanted. Heck, the Egyptians made the Kopesh from bronze, and it was the size of a longsword. The Romans used short swords because they were the best fit for their needs.
Longswords are swung in a chopping motion, and the length of the blade hits the target. Metal armor, particularly chainmail, is best at absorbing that kind of blow, since it distributes the force. That's not so say that a longsword couldn't kill you, it's just that it might not be optimal.
A short sword, like the Roman Gladius, is used in a thrusting or stabbing motion, striking with the point. This made it quite good at punching through chainmail armor to get at the soft organs within. Against plate armor, it wasn't any better than the longsword, but it also wasn't too much worse. But the people the Romans called 'barbarians' made extensive use of chainmail. So the legions were equipped appropriately.
(As an aside, that's why short swords are listed as piercing weapons.)
There were also other benefits, like the fact that Roman legions fought in Phalanxes, were thrusting room to the front was free, but you might cut your buddy's arm or head off whipping a big sword around. The short sword was efficient for them.
The 'barbarians' on the other hand, didn't fight in ranks, and had to deal with a legionnare's steel breastplate, so they loaded up on big, heavy weapons like the claymore (greatsword) and warhammer, because these weapons were most efficient for them.
I apologize for the dump of useless knowledge, but I'm a bit of a military history geek.
[If you consider Valeros to have giant swords... then we had two giant sword wielders so far. Considering that this is the 9th iconic... that's eight months between each other.
I'm not talking just iconics here. Look at some of the other art, since Pathfinder #1. WAR is a good enough artist, but he does have just a bit of a fetish.
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[If you consider Valeros to have giant swords... then we had two giant sword wielders so far. Considering that this is the 9th iconic... that's eight months between each other.I'm not talking just iconics here. Look at some of the other art, since Pathfinder #1. WAR is a good enough artist, but he does have just a bit of a fetish.
If you're talking about Nualia and whatshisface, they both used bastard swords, which are sized correctly, even though Nualia's looks funky as all hell.
If you're talking about Nualia and whatshisface, they both used bastard swords, which are sized correctly, even though Nualia's looks funky as all hell.
Properly speaking, a historical bastard sword blade is no wider than that of a longsword, and often even somewhat more slender; the bastard sword just had a longer handle so you could get better leverage on 2-handed swings. Check out Otic (or whatever his name was) as an example of a WAR sword, and then look in a museum at the historical ones.
Aside: I was recently in the Royal Ontario Museum, looking at a bunch of historical hand-and-a-half swords, and was amazed at how small they looked (even the Zweihanders)... that's when it hit me how much we've been WAR-icized in our thinking as to what's 'normal.' And that's what's getting me about the progressive size creep.
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If you're talking about Nualia and whatshisface, they both used bastard swords, which are sized correctly, even though Nualia's looks funky as all hell.Properly speaking, a historical bastard sword blade is no wider than that of a longsword, and often even somewhat more slender; the bastard sword just had a longer handle so you could get better leverage on 2-handed swings. Check out Otic (or whatever his name was), as an example of a WAR sword, and then look in a museum at the historical ones.
That's true, though I think that's really just artistic interpretation. Besides, WAR didn't paint the inside pictures.
That's true, though I think that's really just artistic interpretation. Besides, WAR didn't paint the inside pictures.
Right you are; I should definitely stop using his initials, as convenient as they are, when it's really the whole fantasy art world that seems involved in this ever-progressively-larger artisitic interpretation. I just had a massive reality shock in the museum, went back and looked at a bunch of the art in the last few years, and shook my head in disgust. Then this one popped up, and I went off like Vesuvius. Sorry.
I'm just amazed at how huge swords now look "normal" to most of us, prompting the artists to make ever-more-absurdly large ones to make an impression.
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That's true, though I think that's really just artistic interpretation. Besides, WAR didn't paint the inside pictures.Right you are; I should definitely stop using his initials, as convenient as they are, when it's really the whole fantasy art world that seems involved in this ever-progressively-larger artisitic interpretation. I just had a massive reality shock in the museum, went back and looked at a bunch of the art in the last few years, and shook my head in disgust. Then this one popped up, and I went off like Vesuvius. Sorry.
It's okay. I don't disagree about the issue of weapons being exagerrated, I just disagree about WAR taking the hit for it, considering he's only come onto the scene since, what, Eberron, four years ago?
Yeah, WAR gets just part of the blame, not all of it by a long shot. After all, he needs to keep up with his competitors.
But still, it's amazing how large the swords in illustrations we now consider "normal-sized" really are.
I thought the 4th Edition forum was where all the QQ, misplaced nerd-angst and flame-wars were located?
Cool artwork on the barbarian by the way. Better than I could do.
You should point out to your friend that Huge vipers have the Run feat just to see what happens.Or that the roper is a magical beast.
Or that the derro, a "half human, half dwarf," is a monstrous humanoid, and as such can't be a lich.
Or that a 60-foot-long sperm whale has less Hit Dice than a 12 foot long dire tiger.
Good times!
I think he wouldn't mind those too much. Normally, he's just a regul... what am I saying? He's the guy who managed to cut himself on my Katana. That sword isn't real. It's for decoration. It's not just not sharpened, it has a round blade. Still, he managed to cut himself.
Let's say his view about D&D and inconsistencies are usually more relaxed. He just seems to have a grudge against WAR. One of the weird things in life, I guess.
Still, your list is a good one. Gotta keep it handy.
I thought the 4th Edition forum was where all the QQ, misplaced nerd-angst and flame-wars were located?
It's moderated now, so people have to migrate to the other forums, which aren't ;-)
Obviously my comments don't speak for the publishers. If swords that will soon be the size of the Sears Tower sell more magazines (er, "books"), then have at it. But let's take a minute to look at why there's really the backlash that there is.
Have you seen the swords from Spires? They're bigger than their wielders - and their wielders are gargantuan rune giants! :P
Which just tells me that Pathfinder 6 wins.
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I thought the 4th Edition forum was where all the QQ, misplaced nerd-angst and flame-wars were located?
There are two things that people will always bicker about: 4ed, and WAR. (At the very beginning of Pathfinder's run, there was a HUGE thread about the artwork for the iconics. I believe two of the major arguements were about the "slim waisted ladies" and Val's "doe eyes", or some crap like that. Oh, and Shalelu's ears, though everyone agreed with that one.)
Have you seen the swords from Spires? They're bigger than their wielders - and their wielders are gargantuan rune giants!
Yawn. In the art for the third AP, all swords will be bigger than the PLANET, so that the characters can chop Golarion in HALF!
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Have you seen the swords from Spires? They're bigger than their wielders - and their wielders are gargantuan rune giants!Yawn. In the art for the third AP, all swords will be bigger than the PLANET, so that the characters can chop Golarion in HALF!
They gotta: Erik Mona's going to have the BBEG end up being Unicron.
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Agreed with what? A lot of people liked her ears and a lot of people didn't. :PThe point is, poor Shalelu was the butt of many jokes for her mile long ears. I thought they were cute, meself, but they WERE weird.
You need to watch the original Record of Lodoss War to gain a finer appreciation for long eared elves.
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Monkey Grip, Improved Monkey Grip [new feat], Greater Monkey Grip [new feat], Superior Monkey Grip [new feat].
Medium 200-pound character can now have a bastard sword 1 step larger than Colossal that weighs over 80 tons.
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You need to watch the original Record of Lodoss War to gain a finer appreciation for long eared elves.Agreed with what? A lot of people liked her ears and a lot of people didn't. :PThe point is, poor Shalelu was the butt of many jokes for her mile long ears. I thought they were cute, meself, but they WERE weird.
I have, and I enjoyed it. I'm just saying that Shalelu was on the extreme end of the spectrum.
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I have, and I enjoyed it. I'm just saying that Shalelu was on the extreme end of the spectrum.I don't think her ears are any bigger then Deedlet or Pirotess's ears.
Compared to Meri's?
EDIT: Plus, that argument doesn't exactly help when people try to denounce Pathfinder on the fact that it "caters to all the manga-heads".
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*shrugs*
Maybe as they grow older they grow longer.. or maybe there are different elven subraces they'll touch on soon enough that have pink skin and short ears. :P
I don't care about the denouncers, let them denounce. If Paizo worries about that crowd then they'll go down the same route WOTC has and thinks they need to destroy everything in a campaign setting for a quick restart in hope of getting those people to like it.
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To the "AGH! BIG UNREALISTIC SWORD!" people I have this to say:
Fantasy materials. Mithral swords are as strong as but much lighter than steel ones. That may not be the case here, but I've had characters that wielded unrealistically big weapons based on that justification in my game a few time. The Heirarchy of Myrtain uses square-tipped adamantine-cored mithral bastard swords, for instance.
To the "AGH! BIG UNREALISTIC SWORD!" people I have this to say:
Fantasy materials. Mithral swords are as strong as but much lighter than steel ones. That may not be the case here, but I've had characters that wielded unrealistically big weapons based on that justification in my game a few time. The Heirarchy of Myrtain uses square-tipped adamantine-cored mithral bastard swords, for instance.
Why would you put the adamantine on the inside?
To the "AGH! BIG UNREALISTIC SWORD!" people I have this to say:
But what do you say to the "AGH! YET ANOTHER BIG SWORD, unrealistic or not" people? The issue for me isn't so much the total lack of realism (leverage for very long, very wide, light objects can be an issue, and wind deflection would be a huge problem, but never mind that) -- the REAL issue is the relentless arms race, requiring swords to be bigger and bigger every month to maintain the same level of "kewl" for the people who like them -- much like heroin users need bigger and bigger doses, I guess.
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Why would you put the adamantine on the inside?To the "AGH! BIG UNREALISTIC SWORD!" people I have this to say:
Fantasy materials. Mithral swords are as strong as but much lighter than steel ones. That may not be the case here, but I've had characters that wielded unrealistically big weapons based on that justification in my game a few time. The Heirarchy of Myrtain uses square-tipped adamantine-cored mithral bastard swords, for instance.
Because it's REALLY tough to get enough to make a whole weapon out of... It's more of a "sandwich" forging process; there's a slim layer of adamantine surrounded by lighter mithral. When the blade is sharpened, the adamantine forms the very leading edge of the cutting surface. It's enough to work as an adamantine sword, but doesn't require as much of the incredibly rare, expensive stuff to make as a full adamantine sword, and it's lighter and much better balanced, too. Plus silver swords with black edges look cool.
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To the "AGH! BIG UNREALISTIC SWORD!" people I have this to say:But what do you say to the "AGH! YET ANOTHER BIG SWORD, unrealistic or not" people? The issue for me isn't so much the total lack of realism (leverage for very long, very wide, light objects can be an issue, and wind deflection would be a huge problem, but never mind that) -- the REAL issue is the relentless arms race, requiring swords to be bigger and bigger every month to maintain the same level of "kewl" for the people who like them -- much like heroin users need bigger and bigger doses, I guess.
The "huge sword" look is just one form of "cool looking". I mix a few into my games, but most of the combatants will use fairly normally-proportioned bladed weapons, albeit with a bit more decoration than a historical weapon. There's a lot more weapons that look like Seoni's sword than the Barbarian Iconic's in my game, but both types ARE there. Now I know what you're thinking: "That's all well and good for YOUR game, but what about the gradual decay of taste in the gaming community as a whole, huh? What about THAT, mister smartypants?!"
All joking aside, you really just need to make "real" swords cool. I think one of the ways to do this in play is to have the people who are REALLY skilled combatants (that super-elite mercenary company, the clergy of the war god, whatever) use just plain ol' longswords, and I do mean plain. No ornamentation at all, not even a particularly polished finish. Just a well-forged, razor-sharp hunk of cold steel. Have them scoff at oversized or over-decorated weapons as "toys" or "frippery" unsuitable for combat. In essence take the same attitude traditionalist .45cal Colt 1911 marksmen (you don't have to be a gun nut to find this out. Read like 2 shooting mags and you'll get the idea.) take towards those who use anything else. If you REALLy want to hammer the point home, have the aforementioned bad-asses use NON-MAGICAL longswords and STILL win.
In my homebrew setting (which I SWEAR I am not claiming as the be-all and end-all of game settings, it's just useful for making points), one of the most lethal groups of mercenaries money can buy use, to a man, a longsword and a small steel shield. (And I do mean lethal; it's a gestalt game so they're warblade 10//rogue 1/fighter 4/tactical soldier 5) No exotic weapons at all. Their backup weapons are a dagger and a shortsword. They butcher virtually anyone put on the field against them thanks to sheer skill and sound tactics.
Heck you think that is big. Check the ridiculously huge sword the mithral mage is using:
Mithral Mage
Heck you think that is big. Check the ridiculously huge sword the mithral mage is using:
Mithral Mage** spoiler omitted **
He's riding on it. So it must be a shield. And he must be an elf. Stands to reason.
I think one of the ways to do this in play is to have the people who are REALLY skilled combatants (that super-elite mercenary company, the clergy of the war god, whatever) use just plain ol' longswords, and I do mean plain. No ornamentation at all, not even a particularly polished finish. Just a well-forged, razor-sharp hunk of cold steel. Have them scoff at oversized or over-decorated weapons as "toys" or "frippery" unsuitable for combat.
We're already there! Our campaign boasts the Tellindar School, whose practitioners use studded leather armor, vambraces, and a plain, slightly slim, normal-length longsword. Through a synergistic meld of feats, they tend to clean the floor with the Super-Monkey-Grip-Power-Attackers, given roughly equal levels of experience.
He's riding on it. So it must be a shield. And he must be an elf. Stands to reason.
Why must it be a shield? I think there was a character on a Dark Stalkers game that could ride his sword.
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He's riding on it. So it must be a shield. And he must be an elf. Stands to reason.Why must it be a shield? I think there was a character on a Dark Stalkers game that could ride his sword.
Donovan? I don't think so... I know that a character from Guilty Gear, Milia Rage, can ride her hair, though...
Donovan? I don't think so... I know that a character from Guilty Gear, Milia Rage, can ride her hair, though...He's riding on it. So it must be a shield. And he must be an elf. Stands to reason.Why must it be a shield? I think there was a character on a Dark Stalkers game that could ride his sword.
Yeah, Donovan, that's who it was.
Check out this video, it definitely looks like he rides it a couple of times around 1:00
Sword Riding
0:25 also is good, look at the left guy.
Oh, you faked me out. I was getting all psyched up for a Donovan video.
"Superman or Green Lantern ain't got... nothin' on me!"
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I shall always call her Snoja, Mammoth Lady BBn. As for her sword, I wonder why it has the two straps one-third up from the crossguard if she does not have a sheath for it. I also am not a fan of the double weapons. I was willing to go along with the double sword, but the dire flail and especially the gnomish murder/suicide tool killed it for me.
As for the coming gnome druid, I look forward to the chance to get some use out of that unseelie druid variant from Dragon. And vindication for Yodas "Size matters not."
For the mysterious 12th, I'd like a Shelynite Mystic Theurge with a glaive, since only the iconic villains use polearms, apparently.
I was willing to go along with the double sword, but the dire flail and especially the gnomish murder/suicide tool killed it for me.
I stepped back and looked at where the idea of a flail came from, and then looked to see if any real world weapon like the idea of the dire flail ever came about and it occured to me, that there is. The three section staff. That is how I describe dire flails in my game.
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I personally like that Barbarian character a lot. I like the big sword, and I like the original concept of how she found it and why she's using the weapon.
It's true that it's difficult to imagine a normal human being (even a very strong one) using such a big weapon. However, the way I interpret it is that there are warriors in these fantasy worlds who are able to fight giants that are 20 feet tall and beat the crap out of them. That also seems very unrealistic in real-world terms.
But personally, I don't give a damn. If realism were so important, I wouldn't be playing D&D and video games in the first place. :D
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I think one of the ways to do this in play is to have the people who are REALLY skilled combatants (that super-elite mercenary company, the clergy of the war god, whatever) use just plain ol' longswords, and I do mean plain. No ornamentation at all, not even a particularly polished finish. Just a well-forged, razor-sharp hunk of cold steel. Have them scoff at oversized or over-decorated weapons as "toys" or "frippery" unsuitable for combat.We're already there! Our campaign boasts the Tellindar School, whose practitioners use studded leather armor, vambraces, and a plain, slightly slim, normal-length longsword. Through a synergistic meld of feats, they tend to clean the floor with the Super-Monkey-Grip-Power-Attackers, given roughly equal levels of experience.
Excellent! Every campaign should have a group like that. Mercenaries from Arag, usually devout followers of Goridon, prime god of war, fill that role in my game. Incidentally, Arag is a rocky, mountainous nation where the locals do very little but raise sheep and train to fight. There's not much else TO do, and mercenary revenues are an important part of their economy.