I would gladly apologize if someone could show me exactly what I wrote that would warrant an apology.To be fair, you are absolutely right -- he makes quite a few good points.
Just once, I'd like to see an apology for his behavior and/or comments:
Well first you'd have to apologize for being a proponent of 4e, then you'd have to apologize for backing it up with logical arguments. ;)
Seriously though, there are people on both sides who argue based on logic, and there are people who argue based on passion. Neither is necessarily a wrong basis in a forum of free discussion as opposed to a classic debate, but put passion guy vs. logic guy and there will never be anything approaching understanding, IMO.
I've lurked on these boards for years. I appreciate CWM's presence here and his contribution to discussions. Regardless of the basis for people's arguments, as long as we keep them civil, I think the Paizo boards benefit. Eventually, things will settle down. Eventually...
Actually, I'm curious, has anyone started a poll on whether they would change over to 4th Edi? Forget all the rants and raves and go straight for the numbers. It might give Paizo some help in decision making, instead of who is most passionate about the issue. Like start a thread where you have a vote, and any rants go behind a spoiler. Like
** spoiler omitted **Just a thought if we are trying to help Paizo make a decision.
There are two I know of. The first one is from a while back and generally asks what people expect to do. The other one asks how your opinion changed after the recent info from - waht was it? D&D Experience - came out.
I'm sure some helpful soul who has the links handy will provide them.
In both cases, the majority (I talk about more than 50%) stated that they'd stick with 3e, with the second largest option being those who will use whatever Pathfinder will be in.
It would suggest that Paizo will be better adviced to keep 3e, but of course, I can't tell you how representative those numbers are (they were about 500 people on each poll if I recall correctly) and whether that's the only concern for Paizo (surely, if 4e will happen to stink or they'll be unable to use it with Golarion without massive changes, they'd stick to 3e even if more people voted for 4e).
WoTC ASSUMES that the loyal supporters of the game (all of us who are in our 30's who have stuck with d&d for the past 10+ years, 20+ in many cases) will stick with the game no matter what, and more often than not, they‘ve been correct. They've counted on that in the past, and been well rewarded for it.
I agree, but there are problems with that:
There's always been people that stayed behind when D&D moved on to a new edition. There are still people out there who play first edition D&D, and that's in its 4th decade now. And with the added options the SRD/OGL and third party publishers allow, the crowd will very likely than before.
Plus, this time around, they change the flavour in addition to the rules, and intentionally make old stuff invalid. That will make more people stick to the old version. If a game without THAC0 will make people feel that it's not D&D any more, try a game without the great wheel, without druids and all the stuff that's been left out.
Also, everyone will only take so much manure from a company. I've been hearing/reading about people fed up with wizards for years now, and recently, the numbers have skyrocketed. I think, this time they went too far, and will lose a lot of people over it.
And I somehow don't think that they'll get enough new people in to make up for it.
It is my opinion that WoTC assumes that the 30's crowd will continue to stay with the hobby, even if we are less than pleased with what directions they (WoTC) choose to take the game in.
I agree with that opinion, and with that assumption. wizards' big problem is that they don't have to buy anything wizards sells to stick with the hobby.
I think that a happy medium is readily reachable. Alas, WoTC, it seems, does not.
Thinks not, or cares not? I can't completely discount the latter, because I personally don't think it would be hard to find a very workable compromise.
I have a wonderful Toyata Carolla. I’m sure next year’s 2009 model will be superior to my current model. But I’m satisfied with what I’ve got, and I don’t see the rationale for trading in my perfectly good Carolla for a newer one, just because “it’s new” or because “Toyata says I should.”
It's an apt analogy. It also fits their marketing strategy (and this analogy isn't my idea, I've read it on those very boards I think):
They basically tell us that the old Corolla sucked. It was ugly, not very secure, prone to breakdowns, and not very comfortable at all.
And just when you think about how you could buy a car from a company that freely admits that it selled shoddy deathtraps of cars, they tell you how much better the new one is, how it is secure now, and pretty, and comfortable.
At that moment, you should think long and hard whether you want to trust a company that sold shoddy cars, either intentionally or because it was the best they could do.
And I'm not even saying that wizards is incompetent or willingly sold us bad D&D. I'm saying that they make it sound as if they did.
Such a case of bad marketing is a big turnoff for me.
Furthermore, WoTC would be well advised to curtail the endless Splatbooks that water down the quality of the overall game to the point where a new edition needs to be considered (which is part of the reason why we are where we are). This may cost WotC some money in the short run, but would keep more players in for the long haul.
Well, when you think about it, it's actually a pretty neat thing they've got going:
They sell a new edition, making money off the core books. Then they keep pounding out splat books, making more money - and incidentally bloating the edition. Before long, people complain that the edition is too bloated now, with all those splat books.
So they sell a new edition....
And there might not even be anything evil about it. They sell what people buy. If people didn't buy it, they wouldn't sell it.
So, in a way, we have ourselves to blame for the shortening lifespans of D&D editions.
I'm not trying to push 4E or saying everyone should switch; I just think that many (including me at times) have got rather heated about this. As you say however, it is everyone's right to say what they feel. I enjoy 3.5, and will probably keep with it for certain playstyles, but I will buy 4E and give it a go. I don't like some of what I have read about it but will reserve full judgement for when I see the whole ruleset in context.
Kae Yoss, you and I are in complete agreement Sir. I enjoyed your comments. Regards.
I am sorry if it comes of as disrespectful but I will not hold people's hands if they are unwilling to take the time to actually read and understand any of my posts.
It's nice to see that you did not intend to be disrespectful. That's not much of an apology, though, because you just blame everything on other people, but then that is what we have come to expect from you. I do read your posts carefully and this may surprise you (even though I've said it before): it's not someone else's fault if you express yourself poorly.
Reply: blah, blah, blah...
I get it. You have condescended, called people irrational, but it was all someone else's fault, ok, ok! I'm sure you didn't intend to make insensible arguments about 3.5, either. Fine.
Keep up the bickering, it speaks for itself. Go read your OP on this thread, man.
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Keep up the bickering, it speaks for itself. Go read your OP on this thread, man.
Yes. The point of that original post was to say - quit sniping at people and talk to each other. If you don't get what someone writes then ask a question before going into attack mode. If you see someone go into attack mode then ask them to stop - or better yet - make sure what you think you are reading actually is an attack.
In another thread I said that I didn't think OGL alternate rules have been all that great and I was called a liar.
How does that make any sense? Instead of asking me what I meant the poster took a clearly subjective statement and tried to call me untruthful.
The bickering does need to subside if any meaningful discussion is to take place. But I cannot sit on the sideline while you take pot shots at me rather than the substance of my posts.
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Yes. The point of that original post was to say - quit sniping at people and talk to each other. If you don't get what someone writes then ask a question before going into attack mode. If you see someone go into attack mode then ask them to stop - or better yet - make sure what you think you are reading actually is an attack.
Heh... and this is something you do well, too - change the meaning of what you've previously written later on in the thread.
If what you state above is what you truly meant to say with your original post, then you did it poorly. To me (and obviously to many other people) it said "These are the 4e forums... only talk nicely about 4e!". And, of course, I expect that, if you even address my post, you will say it's my fault for not understanding you and carefully asking you exactly what you mean. Horsepucky. If you say it, we assume you have intentionally said it and shouldn't be expected to come back with "are you really saying x? or is it y? or z? or something that we can't possibly understand since we're so much scum on your shoe?"
Gimme a break.. .you know exactly what you were saying, and so do we. Don't backpedal on it now - either own up to it and stand up for it, or say (gasp!) you were wrong for suggesting it.
In another thread...
Don't care! Have a look at this thread and what's come of it instead of deflecting and showing how hard done by you are.
The bickering does need to subside if any meaningful discussion is to take place.
That's true. From everyone, though.
But I cannot sit on the sideline while you take pot shots at me rather than the substance of my posts.
And nobody should be expected to - although it seems strange that you have to face this so often... maybe that's something you should consider.
All of that said, prior to this thread cropping up I thought that you'd definitely tempered your writing to these boards to the point where I could actually read your posts again. I appreciate your (generally) logical approach to things, even with a 4e slant (and we all have our particular slant when we post, so that's to be expected). But you need to take responsibility for what you say and how you say it (or you'll be called on it... as we've seen).
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Gimme a break.. .you know exactly what you were saying, and so do we. Don't backpedal on it now - either own up to it and stand up for it, or say (gasp!) you were wrong for suggesting it.
Here is the original post - again:
4E is on its way. You may play it, or you might not. You may love it, or you might hate it.
But it is coming, and at some point this forum needs to shift from debate to discuss.
I don't see anyone complaining about 3.5 over in the d20/OGL forum. I see a bunch of folk talking about the game they love to play.
This place (the 4E forum) needs to shift to that kind of dynamic at some point.
So when can we accept that 4E is what it is (like it or not) and those that want to play it deserve a space where they can talk about it freely without the sniping and rancor.
... and here is the one line summary that you see as backpedaling:
The point of that original post was to say - quit sniping at people and talk to each other.
I see no contradiction. I also do not see how I am telling people not to say anything bad about 4E. I said that the dynamic here needs to be like it is on the 3.5 board. People do disagree there. People do bring up the things they dislike there. Here is the catch - no one there tries to convince anyone that they should not be playing 3.5.
Here, on the other hand, its all about disruption - the haters try very hard to get people to stop talking about 4E by calling the game and anyone that might play it by any of a dozen derogatory epithets.
So please don't tell me that I am trying to back pedal on anything. Look at that post and my summary and explain to me how they are in any way shape or form different statements.
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And nobody should be expected to - although it seems strange that you have to face this so often... maybe that's something you should consider.
All of that said, prior to this thread cropping up I thought that you'd definitely tempered your writing to these boards to the point where I could actually read your posts again. I appreciate your (generally) logical approach to things, even with a 4e slant (and we all have our particular slant when we post, so that's to be expected). But you need to take responsibility for what you say and how you say it (or you'll be called on it... as we've seen).
I will tell you exactly why I face ad hominem attacks so often - I have the audacity to come to a 4E forum and state that 4E might be worth playing. When some folks try to talk me out of it, or worse - throw insults - I do not back down.
My opinion is not popular here and I will not be bullied into silence. I am no deluded fanboy of WotC. I would just as soon play WFRP rather than 4E. I just happen to believe that the discussion of 4E should be about its relative merits and even its drawbacks, but it should no longer be about 4E as a game for idiots.
I hold strong opinions, and I express myself bluntly at times, but I challenge you to go through my posts and show me where I belittled any individual or group of people.
I take full responsibility for every word I write, but I will not take responsibility for the few people that can't stand a logical and reasoned stance on why 4E is not as bad as they would like it to be.
I like you, Crosswiredmind.
But it is coming, and at some point this forum needs to shift from debate to discuss.
No, it doesn't. And it coming or not doesn't have to do with it.
I don't see anyone complaining about 3.5 over in the d20/OGL forum.
I guess they 3e-haters are all busy bad-mouthing it on the wizards 4e boards or something - you get big brownie points for that over there it seems.
This place (the 4E forum) needs to shift to that kind of dynamic at some point.
Since we're all busy reiterating things: This is not 4e-lovers central. Those who don't like it are as welcome as those who don't. The place where people are banned when they don't buy into the local gospel isn't here. You have churches for that, or wizards boards.
Here is the catch - no one there tries to convince anyone that they should not be playing 3.5.
No one's holding a gun to your head. No one tries to tell you not to play 4e. I can't remember anyone saying anything like that.
I seem to remember people saying that everyone should play 4e. Of course, I could misremember.
the haters try very hard to get people to stop talking about 4E by calling the game and anyone that might play it by any of a dozen derogatory epithets.
I must read more. I haven't seen any insult against 4e players.
There might have been some individual insults - on both sides - but nothing generalised.
Really, can you show me any quote (with link please) where anyone insulted 4e fans wholesale?
I understand that if you want a whole edition fanbase being insulted, the wizards boards are a good place to go: Apparently, 3e-fans are insulted all the time there, by rabid 4e fanboys (and if you think I'm being insulting to 4e fans now, get real: If you rabidly insult people because of their game, you're a rabid fanboy).
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I must read more. I haven't seen any insult against 4e players.
There might have been some individual insults - on both sides - but nothing generalised.Really, can you show me any quote (with link please) where anyone insulted 4e fans wholesale?
On this thread Razz says "4E is great for kids and really lazy Tabletop Gamers, and me and my friends will have a blast with it when we're wasted".
On this thread Donovan Vig wrote "It is exactly the dumbed down, made for ADHD racked 13-year old WoW addicts game I have been expecting for months now".
There are two that I remember off the top of my head, and I am sure there are more of them.
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Yeah, but that's Razz. We don't claim him. He's the guy that said something so moronic I don't even want to repeat it and get moron juice all over myself. I'm not trying to be snarky or make stuff up. I just refuse to repeat what he said because it was uncouth.
He he "moron juice". That's a good one Heathy. Can I borrow it sometime?
Yeah, but that's Razz. We don't claim him. He's the guy that said something so moronic I don't even want to repeat it and get moron juice all over myself. I'm not trying to be snarky or make stuff up. I just refuse to repeat what he said because it was uncouth.
It was vulgar and foolish.
I reckon I didn't know enough about CWM to open my mouth, so I've shut up.. But Razz? Razz has dug himself a nice deep pit. I wouldn't try to chase him off, that's not my place, but it's going to be a while before he can rebuild any credibility.
Answer to the OP's subject question: Not anytime soon. ;)
On this thread Razz says "4E is great for kids and really lazy Tabletop Gamers, and me and my friends will have a blast with it when we're wasted".
On this thread Donovan Vig wrote "It is exactly the dumbed down, made for ADHD racked 13-year old WoW addicts game I have been expecting for months now".
There are two that I remember off the top of my head, and I am sure there are more of them.
Technically those are statements about the game and not about all the people that could want to play it. If a game is designed to appeal to "ADHD racked 13-year old WoW addicts", that doesn't mean that people who would not qualify for any aspect of that description couldn't also find appeal in it.
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Technically those are statements about the game and not about all the people that could want to play it. If a game is designed to appeal to "ADHD racked 13-year old WoW addicts", that doesn't mean that people who would not qualify for any aspect of that description couldn't also find appeal in it.On this thread Razz says "4E is great for kids and really lazy Tabletop Gamers, and me and my friends will have a blast with it when we're wasted".
On this thread Donovan Vig wrote "It is exactly the dumbed down, made for ADHD racked 13-year old WoW addicts game I have been expecting for months now".
There are two that I remember off the top of my head, and I am sure there are more of them.
That is a stretch - those statements were guilt by association. They were clearly meant to say "if you play 4E you are ..."
That is a stretch - those statements were guilt by association. They were clearly meant to say "if you play 4E you are ..."Technically those are statements about the game and not about all the people that could want to play it. If a game is designed to appeal to "ADHD racked 13-year old WoW addicts", that doesn't mean that people who would not qualify for any aspect of that description couldn't also find appeal in it.On this thread Razz says "4E is great for kids and really lazy Tabletop Gamers, and me and my friends will have a blast with it when we're wasted".
On this thread Donovan Vig wrote "It is exactly the dumbed down, made for ADHD racked 13-year old WoW addicts game I have been expecting for months now".
There are two that I remember off the top of my head, and I am sure there are more of them.
I didn't read the original posts, but those two lines alone don't imply guilt by association. Those criticisms aim directly at the target market itself, and at Wizards. That said, I haven't seen the other text that surrounds those statements.
That is a stretch - those statements were guilt by association. They were clearly meant to say "if you play 4E you are ..."Technically those are statements about the game and not about all the people that could want to play it. If a game is designed to appeal to "ADHD racked 13-year old WoW addicts", that doesn't mean that people who would not qualify for any aspect of that description couldn't also find appeal in it.On this thread Razz says "4E is great for kids and really lazy Tabletop Gamers, and me and my friends will have a blast with it when we're wasted".
On this thread Donovan Vig wrote "It is exactly the dumbed down, made for ADHD racked 13-year old WoW addicts game I have been expecting for months now".
There are two that I remember off the top of my head, and I am sure there are more of them.
I didn't read the original posts, but those two lines alone don't imply guilt by association. Those criticisms aim directly at the target market itself, and at Wizards. That said, I haven't seen the other text that surrounds those statements.
I'd disagree Jade. Tell someone the OS they use is made for ADHD wracked 13 year olds. Tell someone the tv shows they watch are made for kids, and only entertaining to you when wasted. I bet they'd assume that you imply THEY are ADHD wracked 13 year olds/kids/wasted.
I've seen this in a few threads here too, but (except maybe in Razz's case) most posters have apologized when called on it directly. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen though.
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I think the point is swiftly approaching when that has to stop so people can discuss the game from a common agreement that it is worth playing.
It's statements like this that make people go crazy. What if some gamers really don't think it's worth playing? Why do they have to agree that it IS worth playing? I plan on trying out 4th, but I understand that some folks won't even give it a whirl. It doesn't make me feel bad either, to each his own. It's ok to have disagreements.
*I think things have mellowed out a bit on the personal attack side and that is great. These boards are fun when the vorpal posts aren't flying around. I hope everyone(you too CWM) is having a good day!
I'd disagree Jade. Tell someone the OS they use is made for ADHD wracked 13 year olds. Tell someone the tv shows they watch are made for kids, and only entertaining to you when wasted. I bet they'd assume that you imply THEY are ADHD wracked 13 year olds/kids/wasted.I've seen this in a few threads here too, but (except maybe in Razz's case) most posters have apologized when called on it directly. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen though.
Fair enough, DM (what a perfect set of initials).
I don't think the implication that people who play a stupid game (for lack of a better description) are stupid themselves is actually being made, but strong language easily clouds the semantics of intended meaning and all to easily causes certain points to accidentally strike your audience on a personal level. It's all too easy to think you're the one being talked about.
I was going to bring up that very same example about TV shows, but couldn't find the exact wording. Some people say that some of the shows and movies I like, and I like a wide range, from cinema verite to the occassional farce, were made for stupid people. I can't completely disagree. Some of those movies I enjoy were CLEARLY made for the teenybopper LCD (I'm not saying teenagers are the LCD!) but that doesn't mean that I can't enjoy them or that I'm being lumped in and as CWM said, guilty by association. Many of you Paizo posters make excuses for the worst sci-fi/fantasy shows, but I don't think you're dumb, or inferior. I just think we'd have a tough time picking shows to watch at my house.
I think vitriol for the major change 4e represents should have run its course by now, because people should realize there isn't anything they can do to change the situation other than patronize the companies that keep 3.5 alive and well, or give a new system like True 20 or D20 a try. Once the hyperbole and bitterness abates, we can all get back to peaceful debate, like our religion and politics discussions. ;)
Fair enough, DM (what a perfect set of initials).
...[a lot of good stuff]
My wife (and my group) always use my name against me in forcing me to DM! Bah I say, bah! :P
But yes, I agree with what you've said (and it was said very well, I may add!) They may not mean to lump all of the pro-4E side with the dunderheads they think 4E is designed for (and, again, most have said as much when called on it) but it is easily read into their words.
Like you said, a lot of the vitriol has died down over here since when I originally came here around January. I think some of it is poster burn-out, and every now and then we seem to get some strong flare ups. But I think we're slowly slouching our way to an agreeable discussion over here. Just don't tell Razz! :P
Cheers! :)
Damn this whole freedom of speech thing! Why can't it always be GOOD stuff, you know, that you WANT to hear? That makes you feel all fuzzy inside? lol. I can't stop laughing!
Really though, Are anti 4E sentiments and criticism unwelcome here? I'll admit I've engaged in a bit of heated dickery on occasion, But I don't feel that my opinion should be discarded automatically because of this.
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It's statements like this that make people go crazy. What if some gamers really don't think it's worth playing? Why do they have to agree that it IS worth playing? I plan on trying out 4th, but I understand that some folks won't even give it a whirl. It doesn't make me feel bad either, to each his own. It's ok to have disagreements.
I think the point is swiftly approaching when that has to stop so people can discuss the game from a common agreement that it is worth playing.
I think its great to have disagreements. I love talking about both the pros and cons of 4E.
I am not a big fan of RIFTS but I don't go on to boards dedicated to it and simply complain about it when I have no intention of ever playing it.
If someone dislikes 4E so much that they have no intention of ever playing it, then why should they even bother posting in a place where 4E is the very subject of the boards.
I understand that 4E has not yet arrived but we do have a lot of information about it. Over the next few months we will learn more and more leading up to the games release. At some point this place needs to be the forum for those that play it and not for those that never intend to.
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Damn this whole freedom of speech thing! Why can't it always be GOOD stuff, you know, that you WANT to hear? That makes you feel all fuzzy inside? lol. I can't stop laughing!
Really though, Are anti 4E sentiments and criticism unwelcome here? I'll admit I've engaged in a bit of heated dickery on occasion, But I don't feel that my opinion should be discarded automatically because of this.
I am not calling for everything to be warm and fuzzy. The thing about freedom of speech is that you can say what you want but do not be surprised when someone reacts to your post with a stiff spine and a deep resolve to call you on the insulting nature of your post.
Having freedom of speech does not mean you can say what you want without consequence.
Yes. The point of that original post was to say - quit sniping at people and talk to each other. If you don't get what someone writes then ask a question before going into attack mode. If you see someone go into attack mode then ask them to stop - or better yet - make sure what you think you are reading actually is an attack.
Fair enough. You're still stirring it up, though, aren't you?
In another thread I said that I didn't think OGL alternate rules have been all that great and I was called a liar.
You called them broken on the thread where you and I danced. You never said "I think..."
How does that make any sense? Instead of asking me what I meant the poster took a clearly subjective statement and tried to call me untruthful.
Lot's of people has misconstrued what you have said, and you have been very explicit lately, good job. People will continue to get upset, though, because it is an emotional issue for them. People are emotional.
The bickering does need to subside if any meaningful discussion is to take place. But I cannot sit on the sideline while you take pot shots at me rather than the substance of my posts.
This martyr cloak doesn't fit you. You are clearly not sitting on the sidelines. You came in shooting and have vehemently, and occasionally mindlessly defended everything you say. Often you are right, but what pisses some of us off is that you don't admit when you are wrong. Instead you shift the focus of your words, tell us you didn't mean what we read, and blame the misunderstanding on us. It's like talking to a politician. (Yes, US, meaning all my bro's and sisters here on the boards.)
There has been a great disruption on these boards that began when the magazines were canceled. The announcement of 4E fanned it into an inferno and a lot of the homeless have come here to Paizo. There is no reason to sit there and bleat at them so pointedly about how they are wrong and you are right except for the satisfaction of your own ego, CWM. When will the rancor cease? When people have a sense of resolution and when you stop poking at them, the answer is simple. THEY are not the ONLY ones bickering, brother, can't you see it?
People are doing all kinds of stuff on these boards aside from quarreling over 4E. How about you?
I think its great to have disagreements. I love talking about both the pros and cons of 4E.I am not a big fan of RIFTS but I don't go on to boards dedicated to it and simply complain about it when I have no intention of ever playing it.
If someone dislikes 4E so much that they have no intention of ever playing it, then why should they even bother posting in a place where 4E is the very subject of the boards.
I understand that 4E has not yet arrived but we do have a lot of information about it. Over the next few months we will learn more and more leading up to the games release. At some point this place needs to be the forum for those that play it and not for those that never intend to.
I think the debate on Paizo's 4E board will probably die down when the larger debate over 4E dies down. As people pick up and have questions about 4E, they'll come here. Likewise, folks who stick with 3.5 will probably focus on their 3.5 games and gravitate toward boards that focus on 3.5.
For my part I know I'm learning to be more selective about which threads I jump into, simply because for the most part there same arguments keep circulating on both sides, and emotions are running high. I also look forward to more discussion about the actual merits of the game and less about how/why it is being produced, but I'd say it will be at least several months after release before that transition starts in earnest.
Having freedom of speech does not mean you can say what you want without consequence.
Exactly why you should take responsibility when you FAIL to make yourself understood.
There has been a great disruption on these boards that began when the magazines were canceled. The announcement of 4E fanned it into an inferno and a lot of the homeless have come here to Paizo.
I have to threadjack and say that the only good thing for me out of the whole cancellation of the mags and the whole 4e furor was to turn me on to these boards. There is always a silver lining in any stormcloud. No matter what transpires in the next year vis a vis 4e, I think we can all agree that we are a group of intelligent, prickly, weird, opinionated people and we all love this game we call D&D.
[/theadjack]
Damn this whole freedom of speech thing! Why can't it always be GOOD stuff, you know, that you WANT to hear? That makes you feel all fuzzy inside? lol. I can't stop laughing!
Really though, Are anti 4E sentiments and criticism unwelcome here? I'll admit I've engaged in a bit of heated dickery on occasion, But I don't feel that my opinion should be discarded automatically because of this.
I don't think anyone is advocating censorship; Rather CWM was asking when things will naturally transition to more dicussion about 4E and less about what people think about its marketing and creation. CWM is of course welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.
In any case, even if censorship were involved, the "whole freedom of speech thing" would be irrelevant. Paizo's is under no obligation to serve as anyone's microphone.
I have to threadjack and say that the only good thing for me out of the whole cancellation of the mags and the whole 4e furor was to turn me on to these boards. There is always a silver lining in any stormcloud. No matter what transpires in the next year vis a vis 4e, I think we can all agree that we are a group of intelligent, prickly, weird, opinionated people and we all love this game we call D&D.
[/theadjack]
Good point. I was a subscriber to Dungeon long before the Paizo spin-off, but it was the killing of the mags and the advent of Pathfinder that realy got me looking at the website, and largely 4E that got me to de-lurk.
Though that is a silver lining on a big, ugly cloud. Dungeon and Dragon deserved better.
How is *that* for a threadjack? :P
Thought that is a silver lining on a big, ugly cloud. Dungeon and Dragon deserved better.
Amen my friend. Have the Dragons back to issue 45 and the Dungeons from day one (minus a few here and there from a traumatic experience with an ex wife) The mags definately deserved better. And even if DDI turns out to be great, I will always miss getting those 2 mags in the mail :'(
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This martyr cloak doesn't fit you. You are clearly not sitting on the sidelines. You came in shooting and have vehemently, and occasionally mindlessly defended everything you say. Often you are right, but what pisses some of us off is that you don't admit when you are wrong. Instead you shift the focus of your words, tell us you didn't mean what we read, and blame the misunderstanding on us. It's like talking to a politician. (Yes, US, meaning all my bro's and sisters here on the boards.)
I am no martyr - I stand up and swing back. I would like you to show me a single instance where I have been wrong and not owned up. I am not talking about my opinion - show me one example where I have been wrong.
And quite frankly our first exchange here was a great example of how you reacted to what you think I said rather than what I actually said. You got really pissed off because you thought I was claiming that you could not tell stories using a rules heavy RPG when I was clearly trying to explain that some RPGs are purely narrative and some use mechanics along with narration. I was not wrong and you did clearly misunderstand me.
There has been a great disruption on these boards that began when the magazines were canceled. The announcement of 4E fanned it into an inferno and a lot of the homeless have come here to Paizo. There is no reason to sit there and bleat at them so pointedly about how they are wrong and you are right except for the satisfaction of your own ego, CWM. When will the rancor cease? When people have a sense of resolution and when you stop poking at them, the answer is simple. THEY are not the ONLY ones bickering, brother, can't you see it?
People are doing all kinds of stuff on these boards aside from quarreling over 4E. How about you?
I came here after the mags were cancelled. I saw that Paizo had a 4E forum so I took a peek and walked into a poop storm. So when I started posting it was clear that most people had no interest in 4E and the level of gross misrepresentation and misinformation was astounding. When I started pointing that out I was called all kinds of things.
One guy decided to call me a schnauzer because I couldn't find any serious miniatures of dwarven women with beards. I never said anything to him other than - I can't find any can you please show me where I can can see one? The dude totally went off on me. The thread was capped and Lisa posted her sticky note at the top of the forum.
Seriously - go look at any of my posts and tell me what I have written that is so truly horrible or utterly false to warrant the kind of treatment some here have given me.
And notice that in every "bash CWM" thread there are always folks who support what I say and how I say it.
Again, I dared to be positive and optimistic about 4E. I post from a point of rationality and not blind devotion - apparently a sane person that looks forward to 4E is apparently a threat to some folks here.
I just don't get it.
So there has been some very good discussion here, but there is one of CWM's points that I haven't really seen answered yet (other than with cries of "Freedom of Speech!"). That is, why is it that people are here bashing 4E at all? If you have already made up your mind and won't play it, then why not spend your time working on things for the game you DO enjoy (presumably 3.5 in most cases, though assuradly not all)?
I am honestly not infering in any way that you take your opinions elsewhere or that you don't have the right to voice them, but I am seriously at a loss to understand why you would spend your time on something you DON'T like rather than something that you do.
In the same vein, why does it really feel that people can't have a discussion with it breaking down into pro vs. anti camps even if that is not what the thread is about (which is not the case for this particular thread, but I have seen many others devolve this way).
Sean Mahoney
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Hello all, I very rarely post but I wanted to say a few things on the subject. First I recall back when 2e was switching over a lot of people were upset like now. They were making unbelievable changes to the game that many people felt would destroy the playability. Many swore never to change to the new system. Some still haven't, but the majority of the market went with the flow. I think that here thought we have more of a shift then 2e to 3e we have a breaking of the universe and a remolding into something new and different not just a mere reworking of mechanics and introduction of new nifty toys. I have been trying to remain optimistic about 4e although skeptical. I remember the previous schism and figured to stay clear, but after seeing the stuff from D&D Experience I now feel justified in throwing a few shekels into the pot. It is a big deviation from the game we call D&D. I cannot be happy about what I am seeing WotC do to my beloved game. that being said I wish those who like it the best of times. One day after 25 some odd years of gaming I hope they have enjoyed it enough to feel as passionate about the game they call
D&D as I do about mine. Now why post to this forum my answer is this I want to let the Paizo powers that be know how I feel since I am a subscriber and I know they read and comment regularly. I have never seen a company with such access to their executives. I also am willing to debate/discuss 4e even though I may be against changing and not like what I see does not mean I do not care about the direction it is taking especially when my chosen setting Pathfinder has yet to decide weather
to make the transition or not.
CWM,
You ask me to show you where you were wrong, then cite a place where you were and accuse me of misunderstanding you. There's no point in giving you evidence (power attack thread) when will just deny it. I read those posts dozens of time and it's obvious you backtracked.
People take pot shots at you because you admittedly stepped into the line of fire, in fact when I first saw your posts you were shooting at 3.5.
Since then insensible attacks have continued, and even worsened. Your crusade is not working, although people who agree with you seem content that someone is standing up to the ignorance and that's cool. I don't shoot at 4E other than make a few jokes and occasionally reply to nonsense about it. Personally, just like you, I'm looking forward to seeing what it holds, but I don't step into people's line of fire because I don't want to quarrel.
You do not deserve any of the treatment you have received. But when you argue with someone in a rage what do you expect?
I learned on message boards long ago debate stops with you. If you really want a thread to go away, you have to be willing to let a subject lie, no matter how strongly you feel about it. No snarky responses, no “you’re wrong because,” no responses to obvious jabs. Just because you don’t post doesn’t mean you have “lost” an argument, since when it comes down to it, it isn’t a competition. For a thread to die, you have to be the bigger person, which pretty much runs contrary to the whole message board concept, as no one will ever know about it.
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I wanted to post this separate so as not to get one thing muddled with the other. CWM I have read this whole post from its inception and It would seem that for all your accusations towards others who do not agree with your viewpoints you seem to share some traits. you call others trolls and flamers. You say the residents are known as a bunch of cranky grognards.
I am not personally offended by this most grognards probably feel the same way. The term may have a different connotation to you than me, but I will happily join the grognard clan. I have yet to see a post in this thread from you about one pro or con on 4e so far it has only been to fan the fire or throw a few swings back at some attack here or there. I think that there are plenty of people here willing to discuss 4e. You just will have to accept that some people are going to be very emotional about their game because to many of us it is more than a game it is a part of who we are.
That is, why is it that people are here bashing 4E at all?
Because they are pissed off.
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CWM,
You ask me to show you where you were wrong, then cite a place where you were and accuse me of misunderstanding you. There's no point in giving you evidence when you give it yourself then deny it.
What did you site? The post where I said that OGL games (as in alternate rules) have not been all that great?
Yeah - that is what I think.
Am I missing something?
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I am honestly not infering in any way that you take your opinions elsewhere or that you don't have the right to voice them, but I am seriously at a loss to understand why you would spend your time on something you DON'T like rather than something that you do.
In the same vein, why does it really feel that people can't have a discussion with it breaking down into pro vs. anti camps even if that is not what the thread is about (which is not the case for this particular thread, but I have seen many others devolve this way).
Sean Mahoney
Maybe we're all hepped up on goofballs and whacko.