Okay, besides normal inflation, D&D books seem to have a much steeper price tag than ever before. There also seems to be a much greater amount of "must have" material coming out at a more rapid pace.
For example: Wizard's latest announced release, Draconomicon I, has a hefty price tag of $39.95. And their product output seems to have increased, to the point that any 4e fanatic is going to be hard pressed to keep up.
Even Paizo plans to have output for it's Pathfinder lines that I just don't have the time (or probably the money) to fully indulge.
With the output and price tags, I miss the days of buying 3 core books, a supplement every once in a while, an occasional settings book, and purchasing Dragon and Dungeon. Average monthly charge: $20 and I have more than I can use. For example: even at 1 AP a year, I still wouldn't be about to keep up playing-wise.
Now between Pathfinder and Chronicles and the monthly installments from Wizards, it feels more like, average monthly charge: at least $60 and I have way too much stuff I probably will never get around to reading. One could easily fill a shelf full of D&D books of "must have" material in less than 6 month. Now there are 2 APs a year and no way to keep up playing-wise, and I can barely keep up with my reading.
My concern is this (besides my checkbook): After a few months, gamers are going to get wise, realize they have too much being offered them, and decide that they need to stop spending money on RPG stuff they don't possibly have time to read. The companies will continue to produce output due to past trends, and suddenly the spending will stop and there will be a surplus of D&D resources and companies will go out of business.
Paizo, I don't know about anyone else, but I personally prefer less output so I can at least keep up.
Does anybody else feel the same way? Speak up even if you totally disagree because I'm interested in what other players think of what to me seems like an overwhelming amount of RPG material coming out and what appears to be a increasing trend of oversaturating the market.
This is exactly the reason why I am not purchasing 4th edition. Sure there are plenty of other reasons but you just hit on the most important. Any other complaints I have about 4th edition could be overlooked had I not spent a large sum of money on 3.5 material. Now that I have that much 3.5 material, I need to use it. As you have said, and I have said myself, I have more than I can use in a lifetime. I haven't read or used a fraction of what I own.
Upon the announcement of 4th edition, I stopped buying D&D stuff. Being a ongoing D&D consumer, I thought NOT buying things would just kill me, but so far it isn't. I'm enjoying the extra money floating around, I use less ink on the printer since I'm not doing maps anymore, all in all, I'm happier. The only thing I'm really missing is Greyhawk as opposed to the game itself.
The other challenge was to come up with something to spend my time on. I always have had the creative outlet and I wouldn't know what to do if I suddenly didn't have one. The option I decided to go with was to write my own game, based on the comic book Legion of Super-Heroes. Just having an outlet I was more passionate about means more to me than buying books month after month that I wouldn't get around to using, and as of 4th edition are no longer the most up-to-date version anyway.
So, all in all, I'm doing better.
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I personally find that the Pathfinder materials are coming out at exactly the right rate for me; I have doubts as to converting to 4e at all, but with the high quality of the Pathfinder line I can afford to keep up with it regardless of the edition. To be honest, given my current lack of a gaming group, I have all the time in the world to deal with conversions for when I do have one - and I'd rather have this lovely detailed world the Paizo folks are building for us than the Fractured Realms (no longer Forgotten, they merely endure catastrophes on a nigh-weekly basis to make way for each new supplement - and yet that bloody drow keeps surviving it all...); I like the idea behind Eberron, but I sincerely wonder how long it'll take them to break all the promises they made about things not being revealed; and I only just acquired a fair bit of Greyhawk material to keep me occupied, since the World of Greyhawk has been given little more than lip service all the way through 3.5, unless you care to join the RPGA's Living Greyhawk.
And yes, the cost of the official supplements have been jacked up just a bit to the absurd, even considering inflation and an economic downturn. $30 for a book that's thinner than two issues of Dragon, contains fair chunks of reprinted rules crunch, and is probably about 1/3 pretty pictures? What the heck kind of joke is that?
EDIT: Actually, the thing that ticks me off about the reprinting is that they aren't consistent about it. In one book, they reprint tons of crunch with no changes. In another, they 'clarify' the crunch and add some to the wordcount. In another, the reprint nothing and just make annotations to suggest you should have these *other* books to help make sense of it. It'd be nice if they stick to either reprinting or the appended notes.
Money is one of the reasons I am not switching.
Has anyone noticed the price of the Star Wars saga rule book compared to its size? The book is marked $39.95 and is 9.25" x 9.25" square. I know the color images and licensing factor into that, but that price and book size bother me.
I honestly would not be surprised if 4e used the same size format.
While I do share your sentiments about over-inflated prices and over-produced supplements, I would like to point out that there's nothing that requires you to "keep up" with everything that WotC puts out. Honestly I can't imagine how anyone could buy nearly everything that WotC puts out and actually use more than half of it, unless we're talking about a millionaire with no career or other significant hobby. For the rest of us poor shlubs, "keeping up" is just an excersize in futility.
And also, no matter how many 4e supplements that WotC slaps the "core" label onto, it doesn't change the fact that the original three books are the only ones necessary to play and the only ones that you can count on using in any given 4e d&d game.
TS
I decided to just give my gaming dollars to a great company like Paizo, and stick with 3.5. If they make the change, I'll probably buy the fluffier books about Golarion, because that is one awesome world they are building.
If 4e is like Saga, then while certainly different I can probably wing GM'ing 3.5 PCs vs a 4e adventure with some mods here and there if they are too cool to pass on.
I have tentative permission from the wife to add Gamemastery to my Planet Stories and Pathfinder subscriptions as my birthday present...we're sitting down to eliminate a few comics from my box first, but after that I'll be rocking each month with a nice package from Paizo! Those 3 shipped together should set me back, what? like 30-40 bucks a month after the edge discount? That's not too bad for some solid entertaining reading + future gaming hours of fun.
In perspective, if we went to the movies twice a month, we'd pay that much after tickets, popcorn, soda etc.... while certainly fun, 2 adventure books and a novel are well worth the investment.
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I decided to just give my gaming dollars to a great company like Paizo, and stick with 3.5. If they make the change, I'll probably buy the fluffier books about Golarion, because that is one awesome world they are building.
If 4e is like Saga, then while certainly different I can probably wing GM'ing 3.5 PCs vs a 4e adventure with some mods here and there if they are too cool to pass on.
I have tentative permission from the wife to add Gamemastery to my Planet Stories and Pathfinder subscriptions as my birthday present...we're sitting down to eliminate a few comics from my box first, but after that I'll be rocking each month with a nice package from Paizo! Those 3 shipped together should set me back, what? like 30-40 bucks a month after the edge discount? That's not too bad for some solid entertaining reading + future gaming hours of fun.
In perspective, if we went to the movies twice a month, we'd pay that much after tickets, popcorn, soda etc.... while certainly fun, 2 adventure books and a novel are well worth the investment.
Amen.
Honestly, that is also the main reason why I will be holding off on buying the 3 core 4.0 book. I have invested a small fortune in my 3.x collection and I am in a minor finacial crunch right now. I might get the 3 core books next tax year after seeing how 4.x turns out. If / when Paizo converts, then I might think about upping the buying time. However, I agree with everyone on having more than enough for my needs.
P.S. - I will still continue to buy my Paizo fix, er, items because of the quality and detail that they provide. Plus, I like the people and would like to help keep them employed. No matter what, my Paizo stash is well worth the price!
Does anybody else feel the same way?
I do agree, but I'm not worried. I feel that Paizo is a quality company putting out a quality product. So I'm buying their stuff. Wizards can do what it wants, AFAIC. I'm enjoy the greatly discounted prices on Ebay. I've sent an average of $10 per book (including shipping) and I have just about all the books I want. I'm holding out for the others to drop even further in price.
The option I decided to go with was to write my own game, based on the comic book Legion of Super-Heroes. Just having an outlet I was more passionate about means more to me than buying books month after month that I wouldn't get around to using, and as of 4th edition are no longer the most up-to-date version anyway.
That is an excellent way to go. When I stopped GMing, I started freelancing. I gotta say, I love it. My creative output has increased 10 fold, I spend my freebrain time thinking about how I can make something new and innovative or a different take on something, and a deadline is a wonderful motivator for producing product (at least for me anyways). It doesn't get better then that.
Okay, besides normal inflation, D&D books seem to have a much steeper price tag than ever before. There also seems to be a much greater amount of "must have" material coming out at a more rapid pace.
For example: Wizard's latest announced release, Draconomicon I, has a hefty price tag of $39.95. And their product output seems to have increased, to the point that any 4e fanatic is going to be hard pressed to keep up.
Even Paizo plans to have output for it's Pathfinder lines that I just don't have the time (or probably the money) to fully indulge.
With the output and price tags, I miss the days of buying 3 core books, a supplement every once in a while, an occasional settings book, and purchasing Dragon and Dungeon. Average monthly charge: $20 and I have more than I can use. For example: even at 1 AP a year, I still wouldn't be about to keep up playing-wise.
Now between Pathfinder and Chronicles and the monthly installments from Wizards, it feels more like, average monthly charge: at least $60 and I have way too much stuff I probably will never get around to reading. One could easily fill a shelf full of D&D books of "must have" material in less than 6 month. Now there are 2 APs a year and no way to keep up playing-wise, and I can barely keep up with my reading.
My concern is this (besides my checkbook): After a few months, gamers are going to get wise, realize they have too much being offered them, and decide that they need to stop spending money on RPG stuff they don't possibly have time to read. The companies will continue to produce output due to past trends, and suddenly the spending will stop and there will be a surplus of D&D resources and companies will go out of business.
Paizo, I don't know about anyone else, but I personally prefer less output so I can at least keep up.
Does anybody else feel the same way? Speak up even if you totally disagree because I'm interested in what other players think of what to me seems like an overwhelming amount of RPG material coming out and what...
This is a great observation. I think this is also another reason why Paizo should stick with producing 3.5 material. 4.0 will suck up alot of dollars and players will ultimatel have to decide between purchasing setting content or rule book. The manner in which WoTC is producing rule books (i.e. incomplete books so that people will have to purchase the PHBII to get druids and gnomes or the MMII to get frost giants) almost forces consumers to spend their money on rulebooks rather then setting books.
If Paizo continues to support 3.5 they have less competition. Less competition for peers producing 3.5 (wimps like Goodman Games have already abandoned ship) and less overall competition for rules books.
Paizo I hope your listening because this dynamic will seriously effect the market. I just can't see many people purchasing 4.0 Game Mastery and Pathfinder books until they've spent on the core rule books and supplements. It could a year before the market settles to a point where people carve out a bit of their disposable income set aside for gaming to purchase your products.
Don't forget that there is a recession looming and WoTC may have bungled the release of 4.0 when people will be tight for cash.
Wow, 3.5 is sounding better and better. I'm not going to have to burn a hole in my wallet and I can still enjoy monthly installments of Pathfinder and Game Mastery if only Paizo will stay with 3.5. If not, I can save my money and put my kids through college. Not a bad deal.
I always giggle when people complain about the cost of D&D. Let's say that, in any given month, there's a $40 book you want, and maybe you get a $10 booster pack of minis too.
Now consider the cost of, say, Warmachine/Hordes. This is a game which I've wanted to play for some time, but I just can't seem to get around to paying $60 for three Iron Fang Uhlans.
And then remember that one of the great drawing points of Warmachine is how much cheaper it is than 40k.
And don't get me started on video gaming.
This is exactly the reason why I am not purchasing 4th edition.
You can get the core rule books on Amazon for $23 each, with free shipping. That's pretty cheap actually. A lot cheaper than any of my 3.5 books.
And also, no matter how many 4e supplements that WotC slaps the "core" label onto, it doesn't change the fact that the original three books are the only ones necessary to play and the only ones that you can count on using in any given 4e d&d game.
It's true that ultimately one only needs 3 core books and a bunch of imagination. The challenge comes when one of your players comes in with the Martial Powers book and suddenly is using powers and mechanics you know nothing about. You could say, "Use only the 3 core," but then you have a whiny player on your hands that just spent 30 bucks on a book you're telling him he can't use (sorry to sound so derotagory, I love my players).
It's not as big a challenge as I'm making it sound, but it is there like an annoying fly.
Without going into details, I have made the personal choice to go 4e (I don't really want this to become an anti or pro thread), but I guess I'm just going to be more cautionary with my purchases. I'll probably buy only GSL supported material from WotC and probably be more on and off with my Paizo spending (regardless of which edition they choose). I think their quality is great, but I'll probably just get what I really really want. I really really want the next AP and the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting book. As for the rest, it's a wait and see.
I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather companies slow down and give us some time to keep up (because I would like to keep up) rather than letting us feel we never will keep up unless we have big bank accounts and a lot of leisure time on our hands.
It's true that ultimately one only needs 3 core books and a bunch of imagination. The challenge comes when one of your players comes in with the Martial Powers book and suddenly is using powers and mechanics you know nothing about. You could say, "Use only the 3 core," but then you have a whiny player on your hands that just spent 30 bucks on a book you're telling him he can't use (sorry to sound so derotagory, I love my players).
It's not as big a challenge as I'm making it sound, but it is there like an annoying fly.
The same thing could happen with 3.5 lol. You have a player using the Tome of Battle: the Book of Nine Swords, playing a warblade and tearing s#@t up etc.
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Does anybody else feel the same way? Speak up even if you totally disagree because I'm interested in what other players think of what to me seems like an overwhelming amount of RPG material coming out and what...
Not really. As several folks pointed out, everything outside of the core books is optional. WotC, or any company for that matter, is not holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy their books. (As for whiny players who have to play PCs using the latest shiny, I'd demand they give me the book to review and, if I approve, they MUST bring that book to the game if I need to reference it. Otherwise, no go, and additional protest will immmediately cost a level drain. Or they buy me a copy of the book.)
Unlike what seems like a lot of folks here, the prices doesn't bother me as my income -- and generous use of coupons and gift certs -- can easily handle it. I'm also not bothered by purchases that I "may" never use: I'm an avid reader and have enough hard-covered books, comic books, manga, DVDs, and video games to last dozens of lifetimes.
But, again, you DON'T have to have EVERY book/module/supplement to play DnD of any addition. Imagination, in addition to the players, pencils and paper, dice, and the core rules (and maybe a couple of pizzas), are all that are needed.
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... but then you have a whiny player on your hands that just spent 30 bucks on a book you're telling him he can't use ...I've encountered that as a DM and told that they either buy me a copy of the book or bring it with them at every game. If they forgot, then forgot about using the optional rule. And whining will cost in levels.
The books have gotten a fair bit more expensive but they also tend to be better quality as well. More hard bounds and the artwork is really very nice. I suspect that WotC feels that their customer base would rather pay more for a quality looking and feeling product then get soft bounds with black and white art cheaper. There is also the fact that WotC is sort of competing with illegal PDFs. One way to do that is to make a really good product - something that is significantly superior then an illigally printed version of a PDF since they can't compete with illegal PDFs on price.
I've wondered about this myself but from a slightly different perspective. I was wondering if the start up costs today for a youngster are more than they were for me some 25 years ago.
If I remember correctly I made 3 bucks an hour at my first job (minimum wage) and I think the AD & D Hardcovers were 12 to 15 dollars.
Today of course minimum wage for a young'un is about 7 bucks an hour (?)and the books sell for 35 dollars (4th Ed PH). And of course the quality of the books now is far superior to that of the old ones (here I refer to the paper quality and interior color artwork, not the quality of the actual content).
So really I don't think the game is any more expensive today than it was back when I was young.
As for a multitude of supplements I don't think it's any different now than when TSR was releasing the Handbook (I think that's what it was called) series - one for each class, so you pretty much either had to buy none of them or all of them.
I remember lamenting the fact that I couldn't afford all the D & D stuff I wanted back then. It seemed like TSR (at least for 2nd Edition) was releasing more stuff each month than WoTC has.
Even with editon changes and 35 dollar hardcover books I still think D & D is an affordable hobby.
I do however sympathize with not wanting to "toss out" one's library of 3rd edition stuff. I got back into the hobby about 2 years ago and have dropped about 5 grand on it since and it pains me to think of making that obsolete.
I think if WoTC would spent the last few years putting out quality adventures each month instead of the more expensive rules supplements the resistance to 4th edition would be far less. The thought of converting adventures to a new edition doesn't bother me, but converting a rules supplement - No Thanks!
Sure, the quality of production has risen and matches the price tag, but I've reached a point in my gaming when I simply don't want to buy any more books- I want to keep my money.
I'll keep Pathfinder, and I'll get the Elder Evils book and PHB2, but apart from that, I'm pretty much knackered. Done shopping- now I want to play with what I have.
It's weird, but I'm kinda philosophical about it all- maybe I'll go to the new D&D when I start playing with my kids (assuming it's still around).
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Just get's expensive once you start buying up all the new books. It's funny what we find ourselves buying once we actually have money ain't it? ;p
I remember scrounging up my allowance enough to buy a new Palladium book back when I was in high school. I tell ya though, we paid I think $15 for Ninja's and Superspies, and $20 on Heroes Unlimited. We rode those damn books for all they were worth heh.
I think D&D is really expensive only if:
A) You have to get them all. (Books & supplements)
B) You want the right miniature for every encounter
I'm enjoy the greatly discounted prices on Ebay. I've sent an average of $10 per book (including shipping) and I have just about all the books I want. I'm holding out for the others to drop even further in price.
Amen to that. AFAIC, the one good thing about 4E is all the price drops and fire-sales on 3.5 supplements! I'm going to go on EBAY and finish my collection of 3.5 after the 4E release date!
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Amen to that. AFAIC, the one good thing about 4E is all the price drops and fire-sales on 3.5 supplements! I'm going to go on EBAY and finish my collection of 3.5 after the 4E release date!
I'm enjoy the greatly discounted prices on Ebay. I've sent an average of $10 per book (including shipping) and I have just about all the books I want. I'm holding out for the others to drop even further in price.
I hear ya, but you don't have to wait until after 4th editions release to get great prices on 3.5.
I now have all three limited leather editions of the core on my bookshelf, something I thought i'd never do, and I just completed my 3.5 collection this week. Thank you 4E for making those damn forgotten realms books finally affordable. ;)So if you really want 4E stuff, wait until 4.5. ;P Shouldn't take long.
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I am quite looking forward to the release of 4.0 for exactly the reason the OP cited, I won't have to buy any more damn expensive books. I agree that it is relatively inexpensive compared to other hobbies but it does seem to add up quite quickly. I have had many an $80 month buying RP stuff. Minis, mags(alsa, no more), books, dice, terrain,etc. Add a string of months together like that and my wife begins to look at me in an less and less approving way.
I will, most likely, not switch to 4.0 and sit on my large pile of 3.5 materials for the rest of my days. There are plenty of adventures to still be run and characters to still develop. I feel pretty well set. I will also keep subscribing to Pathfinder unless they make the switch, at which point, I will have to seriously reconsider my commitment.
One other tidbit that floats around my brain, there are vast amounts of other games that I long to play. Scion looks wonderful (3 books total), Agon (1 book), Spirit of the Century, the list goes on and on. I think limiting my large collection to only 1 edition of each game is pretty damn reasonable. Especially when I sneek a gander at the 20 or so 3.5 books on my shelf. (Thinking to myself......twenty times $30 is how much?!?!).
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8
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The books have gotten a fair bit more expensive but they also tend to be better quality as well. More hard bounds and the artwork is really very nice. I suspect that WotC feels that their customer base would rather pay more for a quality looking and feeling product then get soft bounds with black and white art cheaper. There is also the fact that WotC is sort of competing with illegal PDFs. One way to do that is to make a really good product - something that is significantly superior then an illigally printed version of a PDF since they can't compete with illegal PDFs on price.
Art is subjective, personally I think half of the art in WOTC books are crap, give me 2nd Edition painted print artwork any day. That was good fantasy art.
Sure hardbound books are nice and durable, but when the stuff in between become less (fewer pages) and the writing is terrible (fluff, crunch <heres looking at Bo9S>) filled with grammar errors and typos, transposed lines etc, I much prefer the (still only about) $20 softback books like put out by Palladium, or the nice pretty Pathfinder volumes here.
The cost of the books is one of the major reasons I don't use anything other than the core three books. If they stripped the artwork out of the books and included more rules and options then they might be worth $35 or $40 a book, otherwise, I won't pay more than $20/$25 for them. Personally, I think there is way too much art in the books and they could be improved by stripping most of it out.