I will soon be running the thieves guild from there is no honor. I am concerened about the idea of the PCs switchig sides. I was considering removing the option from the game just to make it easier on me. but I also want the game to be compelling and fun. I know that there is at least one person in my group who would probably join them and at least one who wouldnt. so it will cause an interestig discussion while they decide.
my concern is that, if they turn won't that make my job way more comlicated? I know they give a side bar in each issue, but how much could that contain? aren't there any points where the adventure needs a serious rewrite to be playable with the PCs going rogue?
I'm also concerned about motives, whats to stop them from taking over the whole guild and ignoring the AP in favor of takig control of Sasserine? (that thought only occurs to me because if I were a player in this campaign that is what I would do)
is the only motivation greed? or is there a dire threat to the fabric of the universe?
Actually, it doesn't make that much of a difference, the main thing is the fact that the Players have less reason to rush to Lavina's aid during the Bullywug Gambit. If you wish, however, you can modify the adventure to make the Bullywugs attack the Lotus Dragons, as this was the last known position of Vanthus.
After that, you're pretty much home free, with the exception of Tides of Dread.
Hi Someonelse,
The sidebars in the various STAP adventures are actually pretty good about giving insight on running a 'rogue' party vs. the standard 'hero' type. The fact that there really isn't much tweaking to be done is why they're so brief.
To actually give you some help here, it mainly depends on how the party would go about taking over the Lotus Dragons. You make it sound like they will try to kill Rowyn Kellani and stage a full-blown coup in the guild. Is that true, or do you think they would be willing to form an alliance with her? She is a smart, savvy and forward-thinking woman who has grand designs for Sasserine, both in the 'now' and going forward. You could have her see the writing on the wall and cede nominal control of the guild to the PCs, while maintaining her influence as a discreet noble patron. (This also allows her to set up the PCs as patsies just in case things go bad - she has no more direct control of things, and much better contacts in the city than the PCs will). She really is more valuable to the party alive than dead, and you should try to impress that point on the PCs. That would allow you to use the suggestions in each adventure 'as written', and make your life as DM simpler...
If, however, they want to be the big bosses themselves from the start, that is still workable. There's a LOT of work involved with taking over the Lotus Dragons, not the least of which being the other upstart thieves who smell an opportunity to snuff them out before the PCs can establish themselves (as well as a vengeful Heldrath Kellani). The events in Bullywug Gambit could be changed around slightly to involve a rival thieves' guild who got wind of the change in management with the Lotus Dragons, and decided to make a move on Sasserine's underworld. They make some shady deals with the wonderful folk of Scuttlecove, who only ask that they arrange for the delivery of a single piece of contraband into the city as payment... :)
This would give you a way to pull them into the greater Sasserine region in a believable manner, and sets the PCs up to have reason to care about things outside their city (as any successful guild has to do if it wants to survive). They eliminate some rivals, uncover some really disturbing stuff, and then hopefully get wind about the Farshore colony expedition in Sea Wyvern's Wake. The opportunity to not only cement their hold in Sasserine but to get in on the ground level in the colony (with all of its exotic trade goods just waiting to be exported) should get them fired up enough to continue through the AP - and invested enough to want to protect their newfound enterprise from outside threats like the Savage Tide.
Apologies for being so long-winded, but I hope there are at least a few ideas in here to ease your mind and help out! :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
thank you for the long winded response, thats the best kind.
I'm a little more open to the idea now, though I do still hope they stay good guys.
thank you for the long winded response, thats the best kind.
I'm a little more open to the idea now, though I do still hope they stay good guys.
Glad I could help. If it makes you feel any better, I went the totally opposite direction with Rowyn and actually had her try to reform herself, due to the way she and the party leader interacted in TINH. It involved a massive rewrite (which may still be in the Paizo board archives) but was ultimately more rewarding than just killing/imprisoning her (lots of roleplaying drama and angst - good times!)
Your Friendly Neigborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
Just out of curiosity, has anyone with an evil party still used Lavinia as the patron? You could make her evil and turn the Vanthus thing into power play or sibling rivalry rather than the sexual overtones.
...SPOILERS EVERYWHERE....
I'd actually avoid it in this AP. The problem with the PCs going rogue is that the AP, as written, is a story about a brother and sister and their interactions. If the PCs go rogue then they completely drift away from that main story line. You can still try and sort of string them along with various other incentives but it gets harder and harder to justify the PCs performing the basically heroic activities that seem to crop up all over the place in the AP.
The sidebars only go for so long, the point in the AP where the adventurers are invading the Abyss itself in part to save Lavina (yet again) from the unwanted attentions of her brother (who has come back from the dead - yet again) the sidebars have basically stopped and they've been pretty stretched even before this.
The problem really is that the idea of a tight story driven AP (which Savage Tide is more then the first two) kind of clashes with the concept of the PCs having freedom to choose their allegiance.
In the end the AP is about Lavina, sure there are demon lords, artifacts, and a plot to destroy the world, but these are really just so much background clutter to the story of Lavina. If you let the group join the Thieves Guild your stuck with nothing but the background noise upon which to build a campaign.
You've also let your players wander into territory where their motivations have become very material driven. Getting from this point to the Isle of Dread becomes more difficult. Why do they want to leave their thieves guild behind? Now run through the missions after this point.
Furthermore, when they do, your faced with adventure after adventure where the logical response out of your players role playing hard men motivated by greed is 'you want me to go wear and do what ... forget it my character would never do that.
I think James had an interesting idea with the option too have PCs change sides but I don't think it pans out in the kind of tight story driven AP thats been designed here. In the end Lavina has a much more interesting story to tell and your players want to be mixed up in her story. I'd never give them the option to change sides - at first blush Rowyn and the Thieves guild might seem cool but its ultimately a shallow story compared to what Lavina's story has to offer your campaign. I'd not bother with tempting the PCs.
I dunno...it could still work but the above poster is right--you'd need to re-write the story somewhat. Perhaps it might become about rivalry between lovers, or former lovers rather. If the pcs end up siding with Rowyn Kellani that makes the general storyline still work. In that case entirely replace the Lavinia plotline with the Rowyn one.
Something else: it might simply be played as a bit of corruption--Lavinia is in an awkward position financially and socially in a way, and she might reluctantly back the pcs as patrons still even if they head the Lotus Dragons.
Something else: it might simply be played as a bit of corruption--Lavinia is in an awkward position financially and socially in a way, and she might reluctantly back the pcs as patrons still even if they head the Lotus Dragons.
But why do they keep saving her? I mean what she offers them has long ago pretty much dwindled.
Now don't get me wrong. Fantasy Thieves Guild is a cool campaign idea. I just don't think it works well here. Adventure Paths are very pre-defined things (aka story before). All the major plot points are already decided and your players are pretty much just along for the scenery. What you get in exchange for this highly constrained style of gaming is a tight and interesting story.
For a Thieves Guild I'd think a campaign done with more immediate design would be much better (aka story now). Let the PCs take over the Lotus Dragons and the DMs job is to know Sasserine backwards and forwards so that whatever the PCs do he can go with the flow. If they want to set up a protection racket down at the docks he can role play dock workers and small time thugs, if they want to rob the nobles he knows who they are and what their defenses are like. Let the players decide what the story is going to be about session to session while the DM reacts to their motivations.
This obviously involves a ton of prep before the first session since you need to design Sasserine in enough depth that you can handle anything (within reason) the players throw at you smoothly). However it pays off with very little prep needed later on since your not making up stories to entertain your players - their making up the story to entertain you. You'll probably still find your self statting up the odd Beholder who wants to muscle in on the PCs guild but these have become little more then idle doodling in a mainly player driven campaign.
In an AP you pretty much take the decision making out of your players hands and hog it all for yourself. What your players should get in exchange for giving you all this power is a really good story. Now I suppose one could weave something pretty good out of Rowyn and corruption but I don't think the AP really supports this story very. Thus my feeling is you should go with the best supported and most interesting story. You owe it to your players to give them the best story possible from the material you have to work with, thats the role you accepted when they agreed to let you tell them a story - which is what APs really are more so, even, then most traditional campaigns where the DM may decide the next adventure but he's often doing so with some thought about what his players would like to do because the next adventure is not set pre-ordained. With an AP the next adventure is set in stone the odd side trek notwithstanding.
My party went evil and the adventure works. You need to impart three things to make the adventure successful.
1. You need to find a replacement for the Lavinnia motivation and understand that this may be different throughout the adventure. I used greed to motivate them to the Isle of Dread. It may take some rewriting, but not much. If the party hates Vanthus (see #3), the kidnapped individual is almost secondary.
2. Play up the events of Scuttlecove with the savage pirates. Even evil characters don't want to see hell on earth (well, at least someone else's version of hell). When the time comes to give a broader motivation, they will have a good foundation.
3. Make them hate Vanthus as much as possible. If Parrot Island and Scuttlecove aren't enough, have him kill an animal companion, a familiar, or just have him send assassins periodically after the party for messing up his plans with the Lotus Dragons. (Even if the party joins them, he can't be happy that he was thrown out because of their actions). Evil parties don't like to be messed with and their motivation to kill those that cross them can't be underplayed.
Hope this helps.
Jeff
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My group is having it both ways. Some of the original PCs are going to sail to Farshore: the other players will make PCs to use for that leg of the campaign. Another party's worth of original and new PCs are going to stay in Sasserine and establish a thieves' guild to fill the Lotus Dragons vacuum and try to seize the Islaran vacancy on the Dawn Council via an Emil Draktus-type maneuver. We'll run the Sasserine thieves' guild games when we don't have a quorum for the main STAP, when someone else wants to DM, etc. We're all very excited about both stories and I'm glad not to have to choose between 'em.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone with an evil party still used Lavinia as the patron? You could make her evil and turn the Vanthus thing into power play or sibling rivalry rather than the sexual overtones.
I will probably wind up doing that considering the state of my party. And that I want to make the Lotus dragons/Lavina thing more interesting.