You are relying quite heavily on massive exaggeration to make your arguments. He is not in fact all-knowing, unstoppable and all-powerful. He is a high-level wizard with a very powerful template. He cannot be everywhere at once, and frankly, he doesn't necessarily *care* about the challenges your party is facing.If your party is low-level, Elminster most likely neither knows or cares about what you're doing. If you're high-level, even if he does know about you, he probably figures the problem is in good hands and attends to his own affairs.
Okay, maybe he can't be everywhere at once, but you said it yourself- he's pretty damn powerful. Maybe he can't be everywhere at once, but I'm sure he could be in more than one place at once, doing good. Any why wouldn't he ally with characters in working towards a common goal, regardless of level.
There's a saying, "All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." And there's the Realms in a nutshell. Dozens of 'good' characters who are personally powerful enough to destroy evil countries single-handedly, but choosing to do nothing.False. There's not a single character in the Realms with that level of power. And you are ignoring the fact that there are many high-powered villains and evil organizations as well. Show me anywhere in Realms literature where Elminster has the opportunity to destroy the Zhentarim and chooses not to do so. Or where The Simbul has the power to destroy the Red Wizards but lets them go.
Forget the history, we have his stats and his list of spells! It would take time and effort on his part, certainly, and he'd definetly benefit from allies, but he could seriously hamper the Zhentarim by his lonesome, and greviously wound them with a few of his buddies helping out. It's not impossible- so why don't they?
Do I *want* them running around fixing everything? Heck no. But if they have the power to do so, and *choose to sit around* and do nothing when the Realms has slaving nations and evil cities and whatnot, then they are accomplices. They've got an alignment that compels them to do something, and the power to do anything, and they don't use that power, and they don't follow that alignment, *so why the heck do they have them?* They're just way overwritten.
See above.And a game will obviously suck if the PC's spend their time standing around and waiting for the Big Guns to show up and bail them out. Stop worrying so much about f***ing Elminster. Elminster isn't here. So let's go kill that damned dragon.
Then later, they can send El a nasty letter about how immoral he is for not teleporting in and having their adventure for them. "Enclosed, please find all the ee-pees we earned and all the gold we captured. It's no fun to succeed when we know you could have done this job instead of us."
If they want to watch other people being heroic, they should rent a movie.
It seems like you're complaining because the high-powered NPC's *could* function as dei ex machina, and then complaining because they *don't*..
Well, if Set isn't complaining about it, then I am. What exactly are these ridiculously powerful NPCs doing, sitting around on their bums, urging others (read: much lower level PCs) to fight and die in their stead? I'm not saying that they should rule the world(although the Manshoon wars were fun), but I am agreeing with Set in that they should act in accordance with their alignment- not perpetrate a cold war.
Set wrote:
I know there are 'kill Elminster!' types out there, but I was perfectly happy with him being an 8th level Diviner who could offer some useful 'sage advice' from time to time, but wouldn't be teleporting around, wiping out armies or curb-stomping demon-lords.
You're talking about how he acts in his own novels...because they're his stories, not your PCs'. The novels are not the game. Elminster kicks butt in stories where he's the hero. Your PC's should kick butt in adventures where they are the heroes.
In this much, I agree with you. The PCs should always be the stars. But once again, what can the PCs do that such powerful NPCs cannot? All I'm asking for is for one or two of these guys to die fighting each other- perhaps making room for other powerful NPCs- or create a realm all their own- one of the reasons why I loved Power of Faerun was because it actually answered this quandery.
I wonder what Ed Greenwood thinks of all this :/
I wonder what Ed Greenwood thinks of all this :/
Wise Words from Ed, Regarding 4e FR
From Candlekeep.
Also, he talks about it a little in his interview in Kobold Quarterly.
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I wonder what Ed Greenwood thinks of all this :/
I was quite impressed with Ed's responses, right up until I found he he was paid a crapload of money to write 50,000 words for the new FRCG (or whatever it'll be called).
He portrays it as trying to continue to influence the direction of the Realms... unfortunately I expect it's more of a business decision at this point and that while he might be able to speak up in development meetings he can't do much more than hold on and hope that he doesn't get thrown overboard. I can't fault him for it, but I can still feel some amount of disappointment that it happened.
Not that it matters... as soon as he sold it to TSR they changed it. He's been dealing with "his" Realms and "published" Realms for a couple of decades now. Before, though, you always could still use the information he was able to provide and understand that it came about from a rich history of his actually creating and playing in that world. Now he's basically just another freelancer who has his marching orders from WotC and whose name will, they hope, fool people into thinking that the new Realms actually has a shred of its former brilliance. Ed's name on the book is like putting the Forgotten Realms logo on the new setting... hoping that name recognition will pull people in despite the fact that it's really not the same thing.
In case you couldn't guess, this is where any of my home campaigns set in the Realms begin to seriously diverge from the "published" Realms.
In case you couldn't guess, this is where any of my home campaigns set in the Realms begin to seriously diverge from the "published" Realms.
Yeah, I blew up Evermeet in mine...;)
In case you couldn't guess, this is where any of my home campaigns set in the Realms begin to seriously diverge from the "published" Realms.Yeah, I blew up Evermeet in mine...;)
I flooded the Anauroch, and it became the inland Sea of Anauro.
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In case you couldn't guess, this is where any of my home campaigns set in the Realms begin to seriously diverge from the "published" Realms.
Yeah, I blew up Evermeet in mine...;)
Now that sounds like fun.
The last campaign I ran involved Silverymoon - where one could find Drizz't hanging from the walls by his wrists so children could pelt him with rotten fruit and vegetables all day.
I hate Drizz't like some people seem to hate Elminster (who I think is a harmless NPC :) ).
Now that sounds like fun.
It was. The Four Sons (and daughter) of Vyshaar did indeed return to extract their vengeance.
Okay, maybe he can't be everywhere at once, but you said it yourself- he's pretty damn powerful. Maybe he can't be everywhere at once, but I'm sure he could be in more than one place at once, doing good.
What spell allows him to do that?
The whole "being in many places at once" bit didn't work out very well when Manshoon did it.
Any why wouldn't he ally with characters in working towards a common goal, regardless of level.
Because when he does, he gets accused of being a deus ex machina and undercutting the PCs' chance to be heroic.
In the novels, he does ally with characters, from 1st level ones (that Spellfire chick) right on up to the Seven Sisters and Khelben.
Forget the history, we have his stats and his list of spells! It would take time and effort on his part, certainly, and he'd definetly benefit from allies, but he could seriously hamper the Zhentarim by his lonesome, and greviously wound them with a few of his buddies helping out. It's not impossible- so why don't they?
He has hampered and grievously wounded them, with the help of allies. You don't see the Zhentarim ruling Faerun...or even the nearby Dalelands...despite many decades of trying.
It seems like you're complaining because the high-powered NPC's *could* function as dei ex machina, and then complaining because they *don't*..
Well, if Set isn't complaining about it, then I am. What exactly are these ridiculously powerful NPCs doing, sitting around on their bums, urging others (read: much lower level PCs) to fight and die in their stead? I'm not saying that they should rule the world(although the Manshoon wars were fun), but I am agreeing with Set in that they should act in accordance with their alignment- not perpetrate a cold war.
Okay, new rule. No characters are allowed in any game setting who are higher level than the PC's. Because if there are higher level characters, then by definition they should be the ones taking care of all the problems.
Are you really arguing that, or are you just messing with me?
In this much, I agree with you. The PCs should always be the stars.
The PCs should always be the stars of their own adventures. Even if they fail spectacularly.
But they don't have a gods-given right to always be the stars of every single thing that goes on in the game world.
But once again, what can the PCs do that such powerful NPCs cannot?
If the PCs want to be able to do things that the powerful NPCs cannot, then they have to earn that level of power. A good DM will, in time, give the PCs the opportunity to do so. But as I've said several times, the default setting of the game is *not* "the PCs are the greatest and most awesome characters in the world."
If it helps, think of the powerful good NPCs as adversaries too...not to be killed or defeated (unless your PCs are evil)...but to be surpassed.
If you don't like that Elminster is so powerful, get more powerful than him.
All I'm asking for is for one or two of these guys to die fighting each other- perhaps making room for other powerful NPCs-
Khelben and Azoun. There you go. Didn't die fighting each other, but died.
But why would "other powerful NPCs" be any better than the ones they're replacing, if the problem is too many powerful NPCs?
But really, we're just arguing philosophies here. 4e Realms will apparently give you what you wished for, except, oops, Elminster is still around (he's product identity), and Drizzt is still around (his books sell).
If they just go ahead and add "Save Game" and "God Mode" features, nobody ever has to lose and everyone should be happy. (But apparently that will have to wait for 4.5)
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I believe that what's happend to the 4E realms is a prime example of trying to get fluff to match the rules when it should be the other way round.
To me it looks like they designed the new cosmology to be generic as possible but diddent check to see how well it would work with the Forgotten realms so when its come round to getting the two to match up they have had to do a hatchet job on the setting.
Funny thing is i wasent that big a fan of the previous edition realms but it was far better than this souless abomination
One of the things bugging me is that WotC has shown no effort or desire to respect anything or anyone predating 4/e (despite suggestions to the contrary).
I know it's a business, and they can do what they want. It's more a question of what kind of people the designers are, not what kind of business-people they are. By making this another version of D&D (as opposed to a new game), there's a moral obligation to respect where the game has come from.
The more I think about it, the more I think FR is the most upsetting casualty of 4/e (and I'm not even an FR fan).
I think they'd have ditched dragons if they saw profit in it.
I think they'd have ditched dragons if they saw profit in it.
Well, there are a couple of metallics that would certainly agree with you (brass and bronze if I'm not mistaken)... ... ...
Cheers,
Colin
Sorry for the problems with format, I'm going to try to answer these while giving credit to who said what without it getting TOO confusing...
I said:
Okay, maybe he can't be everywhere at once, but you said it yourself- he's pretty damn powerful. Maybe he can't be everywhere at once, but I'm sure he could be in more than one place at once, doing good.
You said:
What spell allows him to do that?
The whole "being in many places at once" bit didn't work out very well when Manshoon did it.
My response:
You answered your own question. Yeah, it didn't work very well when Manshoon did it, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume Elminster isn't a nut trying to take over the world with an army of clones. Again, not everywhere at once, just more than one. A couple of clones or similarciums or whatever could do a lot of good.
I said:
Any why wouldn't he ally with characters in working towards a common goal, regardless of level.
You said:
Because when he does, he gets accused of being a deus ex machina and undercutting the PCs' chance to be heroic.
In the novels, he does ally with characters, from 1st level ones (that Spellfire chick) right on up to the Seven Sisters and Khelben.
My response:
Okay, maybe the problem isn't with Elminster, but how he's used. I guess that depends on the individual DM. I'm not really concerned with the novels, but thanks for the counterpoint.
I said:
Forget the history, we have his stats and his list of spells! It would take time and effort on his part, certainly, and he'd definetly benefit from allies, but he could seriously hamper the Zhentarim by his lonesome, and greviously wound them with a few of his buddies helping out. It's not impossible- so why don't they?
You said:
He has hampered and grievously wounded them, with the help of allies. You don't see the Zhentarim ruling Faerun...or even the nearby Dalelands...despite many decades of trying.
My response:
Okay, good point. I guess my problem is that these organizations still exist without any real signs that they have tangled with one of these powerful NPCs. I must point out that I LOVE the fact that the Zhentarim has financial aspirations in addition to take over the world ones, they still have a sizable army that's been defeated, but not broken. I think the best example of what I'm looking for is what happened in the recent Taladas trilogy in Dragonlance where an entire civilization is set back a generation or two due to a serious defeat. This has yet to happen to the Zhentarim, who seem to run off into the sunset screaming "Next time, Elminster...NEXT TIME!!!!"
You said:
It seems like you're complaining because the high-powered NPC's *could* function as dei ex machina, and then complaining because they *don't*..
I said:
Well, if Set isn't complaining about it, then I am. What exactly are these ridiculously powerful NPCs doing, sitting around on their bums, urging others (read: much lower level PCs) to fight and die in their stead? I'm not saying that they should rule the world(although the Manshoon wars were fun), but I am agreeing with Set in that they should act in accordance with their alignment- not perpetrate a cold war.
You said:
Okay, new rule. No characters are allowed in any game setting who are higher level than the PC's. Because if there are higher level characters, then by definition they should be the ones taking care of all the problems. Are you really arguing that, or are you just messing with me?
My response:
Let's keep things civil.
Noone said they should take care of all of the problems, but they should take care of SOME of them. If the Zhentarim, Szass Tam, and most of the other baddies are still around scratching themselves(Szass Tam in particular seems to be dead and loving it in Unclean by Richard Lee Byers), then something's wrong. There should be more than a few cooling bodies of both villains AND heroes littering the realms.
I said:
In this much, I agree with you. The PCs should always be the stars.
You said:
The PCs should always be the stars of their own adventures. Even if they fail spectacularly.
But they don't have a gods-given right to always be the stars of every single thing that goes on in the game world.
My reponse:
That just happened in my weekly game- the PCs were SERIOUSLY defeated(half the party was killed), and we decided to fast forward the game to a year later with the survivors starting a new party to both adventure and avenge their fallen. I used to hate having PCs die in the middle of a game, but this moment was handled with such gravity, emotion, and humor that I actually look forward to a PC meeting a heroic(or in one case, not so heroic)end.
I said:
But once again, what can the PCs do that such powerful NPCs cannot?
You said:
If the PCs want to be able to do things that the powerful NPCs cannot, then they have to earn that level of power. A good DM will, in time, give the PCs the opportunity to do so. But as I've said several times, the default setting of the game is *not* "the PCs are the greatest and most awesome characters in the world."
If it helps, think of the powerful good NPCs as adversaries too...not to be killed or defeated (unless your PCs are evil)...but to be surpassed.
If you don't like that Elminster is so powerful, get more powerful than him.
My response:
I'm not saying that I have a problem with Elminster being powerful, I have a problem with him not using that power in a way that's reflected in the world beyond a few lands remaining in the hands of their rightful rulers.
I said:
All I'm asking for is for one or two of these guys to die fighting each other- perhaps making room for other powerful NPCs-
You said:
Khelben and Azoun. There you go. Didn't die fighting each other, but died.
But why would "other powerful NPCs" be any better than the ones they're replacing, if the problem is too many powerful NPCs?
But really, we're just arguing philosophies here. 4e Realms will apparently give you what you wished for, except, oops, Elminster is still around (he's product identity), and Drizzt is still around (his books sell).
If they just go ahead and add "Save Game" and "God Mode" features, nobody ever has to lose and everyone should be happy. (But apparently that will have to wait for 4.5)
My response:
Okay, that is two. But that's about it. Azoun was belly up at the start of the 3.0 FRCS, and Khelben met his end recently. When I said "a couple" I actually meant more than two, but I can't fault you for giving me my two. Can confirm Halaster and his sidekick buying it in a recent adventure?
My beef isn't with too many powerful NPCs(every world has 'em), it's with too many of the SAME NPCs still alive, kicking, and not doing anything beyond twirling moustaches at each other. Only Ravenloft has it worse, but even they have a built-in answer to that problem. So no, 4e Realms will NOT give me what I'm asking for. But that's not your fault, and I didn't mean to insinuate that it was, if that's why we seem to be getting heated over this difference in philosophy.
I actually really like the changes. Keep in mind, I didn't grow up playing D&D and Faerun wasn't really my bread and butter. It doesn't really effect me either way if they blew up have the world. But I have run a lot of Realms games and played in them as well and I think the changes sound cool.
I understand how this could be a blow to someone who loves the Realms and doesn't want to see it change. I'm a huge fan of Star Wars and what Lucas did in Episode 1-3 really cheesed me off, so yeah, I get how these changes could really get under your bonnet.
Well, if you thought this was bad, just wait until fifth edition D&D Forgotten Realms turns around. The logical conclusion is that the time jump will be around a thousand years, Elminster will still be around, only the dalelands, cormyr, and waterdeep will survive, and then only at stone age technology/society. Every other part of the setting will be tightly packed (I mean it, to get two steps outside a point of light you have to dig through monster bodies) with bizarre creatures that are new "redefinitions" of the same old monsters. Deities will be changed again, this time importing the ones from Eberron 4th edition, but Bane will remain as always. As for magic, it has now become a requirement for sustained life that you continuously cast spells to let you breathe.
And let's not even get started on the Realms-Shaking Events of the novel line (the world is completely annihilated in the first chapter of every book, then it gets even bigger). =)
Long live 4th edition Forgotten Whatever!
I actually really like the changes. Keep in mind, I didn't grow up playing D&D and Faerun wasn't really my bread and butter. It doesn't really effect me either way if they blew up have the world. But I have run a lot of Realms games and played in them as well and I think the changes sound cool.
I understand how this could be a blow to someone who loves the Realms and doesn't want to see it change. I'm a huge fan of Star Wars and what Lucas did in Episode 1-3 really cheesed me off, so yeah, I get how these changes could really get under your bonnet.
Just out of curiosity, what do you like about the changes? Is it the way the world is described? Was there something in the original setting that kept you away that is gone now? Or is it that you are interested in 4th edition and this is the first setting to more or less integrate the new 4th edition ideas into a setting?
I honestly am interested to hear about this. Thanks in advance for indulging me, if you choose to . . ;)
Can't have a plague without the ubiquitous plague rats, so I'm eagerly awaiting the new spellplague rats...Do they get +1 to attack and +1 to defense for each of them that you encounter?
Yes they do, but then they went and ruled that you can only have up to four per encounter (unless the PCs brought some of their own) and their mana co... challenge rating is so high that, barring a dark rit, you're only getting+3/+3, around seven turns in. Yipee.
Oh, right, the realms...
Is it this important to actually have the forgotten realms fit 4E standard? Might it not be better to showcase the realms as they were (maybe with a greyhawk wars level event thrown in) to show people that 4E doesn't have to muddle absolutely everything? One of 3rd ed's big moves was removing campaign settings from a particular, unified set of outer planes. The idea was that the planes should serve the setting/story, not unity for unity's sake. So now they're being RE-UNIFIED? What about Eberron's "atomic model" planes? Will the spellplague get them, too?
Of course, all these new lands (and continents!) will be home to dragon people, tieflings and all that. I must say, this is THE WORST job I've seen anyone do of jamming a square peg into a round hole in a LONG time. Ugly. If the realms aren't working, go somewhere else.
What's Ed Greenwood think about all this?
I wonder what Ed Greenwood thinks of all this :/Wise Words from Ed, Regarding 4e FR
From Candlekeep.
Also, he talks about it a little in his interview in Kobold Quarterly.
Ahem . . . look up.
Is it this important to actually have the forgotten realms fit 4E standard? Might it not be better to showcase the realms as they were (maybe with a greyhawk wars level event thrown in) to show people that 4E doesn't have to muddle absolutely everything? One of 3rd ed's big moves was removing campaign settings from a particular, unified set of outer planes. The idea was that the planes should serve the setting/story, not unity for unity's sake. So now they're being RE-UNIFIED? What about Eberron's "atomic model" planes? Will the spellplague get them, too?
I can't speak for all Realms fans, obviously, but I know when we thought that a few older NPCs might die off, and that there would only be a 10 year jump, a lot of fans were kind of curious to see the "new" Realms. Azoun V would be on the throne, there was time for things in Waterdeep (Halaster, Khelben) to settle in.
Not that everyone liked the death of major NPCs, but in small doses, it was kind of accepted as, "well, the setting should keep moving forward."
One of the problems I have, and an example of the fluff having to work with the new mechanics, is that, while there were already Dragonborn and Tieflings in the Realms, the new Dragonborn and Tieflings are apparently different enough that they warrant a whole new genesis. Why couldn't someone just figure out (and accept) that these races might exist, but wouldn't be major players?
Heck, introduce a new Tiefling right hand man to Fzoul and a new Dragonborn paladin bodyguard for Azoun V, and even if the races aren't that numerous, at least they are represented.
Ah well.
Errant Jr. and others, my condolences on your beloved Forgetable Realms' relagation to 2nd tier status in the hallowed halls of WoTC.
Now all FR fans can join the club with us Greyhawk fans who's beloved campaign setting was Sacked once upon a time as well, when it was the Flagship campaign of TSR/WoTC also. The same disappointments and frustrations we once endured, you now get to have a turn with.
And for what?
Okay, new rule. No characters are allowed in any game setting who are higher level than the PC's. Because if there are higher level characters, then by definition they should be the ones taking care of all the problems. Are you really arguing that, or are you just messing with me?
Let's keep things civil.
I wasn't trying to be uncivil. Just using the old tactic of trying to take an opponent's argument to its logical extreme and showing that it doesn't work.
Noone said they should take care of all of the problems, but they should take care of SOME of them. If the Zhentarim, Szass Tam, and most of the other baddies are still around scratching themselves(Szass Tam in particular seems to be dead and loving it in Unclean by Richard Lee Byers), then something's wrong. There should be more than a few cooling bodies of both villains AND heroes littering the realms.
There are. Dead super-villains: Sememmon, Halaster, the Ghazneths, Gilgeam, Zhengyi, Yamun Khahan, Bhaal, Myrkul, many Zhentarim higher-ups, many Red Wizard higher-ups...you just don't hear much about them anymore because they're dead.
I'm not saying that I have a problem with Elminster being powerful, I have a problem with him not using that power in a way that's reflected in the world beyond a few lands remaining in the hands of their rightful rulers.
Again, I think you're overestimating Elminster's power. He can't just go out and singlehandedly wipe out nations/organizations headed by literally dozens of powerful mages, clerics, fighters, and spies with thousands of troops and highly defensible homelands. And if he gathered all the other good uber-NPCs together and tried to do so, they'd probably wipe out the Realms in the process. (Even more than Wizbro is wiping them out in 4e).
Okay, that is two. But that's about it. Azoun was belly up at the start of the 3.0 FRCS, and Khelben met his end recently. When I said "a couple" I actually meant more than two, but I can't fault you for giving me my two. Can confirm Halaster and his sidekick buying it in a recent adventure?
Yes, although he was evil.
Many of those powerful NPCs will remain alive because of financial considerations...their stories and adventures make money for WotC. That's why Elminster is still around in 4e (even though by rights if Mystra is dead, he should be), and so is Drizzt. Don't know about any of the others.
So no, 4e Realms will NOT give me what I'm asking for. But that's not your fault, and I didn't mean to insinuate that it was, if that's why we seem to be getting heated over this difference in philosophy.
I wasn't heated, I was just arguing my position. And really, it doesn't matter much anymore because the Realms I knew is gone anyway, and I won't be playing the setting anymore.
You may find that when Paizo starts publishing Golarion fiction, you may run into the same concerns. You can tell stories about young parties just starting out their adventuring lives, but eventually you're going to want to start talking about dragons and archmages and rampaging demigods, and to do that you need high-level characters.
I should point out that the majority of Forgotten Realms fiction focuses on low to mid-level heroes. I just read "Swords of Eveningstar" by Ed Greenwood about the Knights of Myth Drannor as first-level bumbling noobs. Not an Elminster or naked Storm Silverhand in sight. Go through the list of FR novels, and you'll see a good spread from novies to epic-level.
Errant Jr. and others, my condolences on your beloved Forgetable Realms' relagation to 2nd tier status in the hallowed halls of WoTC.
Now all FR fans can join the club with us Greyhawk fans who's beloved campaign setting was Sacked once upon a time as well, when it was the Flagship campaign of TSR/WoTC also. The same disappointments and frustrations we once endured, you now get to have a turn with.
And for what?
Hey, I was a fan of the Realms AND Greyhawk AND Krynn. I've had to watch as all three settings have been given the Golden Enema on numerous occasions.
I actually really like the changes. Keep in mind, I didn't grow up playing D&D and Faerun wasn't really my bread and butter. It doesn't really effect me either way if they blew up have the world. But I have run a lot of Realms games and played in them as well and I think the changes sound cool.
I understand how this could be a blow to someone who loves the Realms and doesn't want to see it change. I'm a huge fan of Star Wars and what Lucas did in Episode 1-3 really cheesed me off, so yeah, I get how these changes could really get under your bonnet.
Just out of curiosity, what do you like about the changes? Is it the way the world is described? Was there something in the original setting that kept you away that is gone now? Or is it that you are interested in 4th edition and this is the first setting to more or less integrate the new 4th edition ideas into a setting?
I honestly am interested to hear about this. Thanks in advance for indulging me, if you choose to . . ;)
I do like how it is described. I've always been a big fan of not hearing about the catastrophies but actually living through them and feeling the effects of them.
I think it is cool how Toril is being transposed by Abeir in certain places, that is something I myself would do in my home campaign.
I guess the thing is, the old Realms were cool but I didn't hold any specific reverence for them, I did things you wouldn't believe to Faerun because I didn't just feel railroaded with the adventures but also the setting itself. My players weren't the type to pour through the setting book but rather relied on me to paint the world for them, so I did things that are actually very similar to what 4E did. I killed Dieties, made them like dead machines that still produce Divine magic, collapsed huge portions of the continent into the Underdark so that the interactions would be real. I staged massive invasions from the Red Wizards on sand ships and air ships. There was genocide waged against the dwarfs, the elves became even further isolationists and everything in a word, was f*cked.
But I like a setting like that, where the struggles are big and the threats are very very real. That is why I'm such a big Dark SUn fan, even though I never got to run a campaign there, only got to be a player.
Errant Jr. and others, my condolences on your beloved Forgetable Realms' relagation to 2nd tier status in the hallowed halls of WoTC.
Now all FR fans can join the club with us Greyhawk fans who's beloved campaign setting was Sacked once upon a time as well, when it was the Flagship campaign of TSR/WoTC also. The same disappointments and frustrations we once endured, you now get to have a turn with.
And for what?Hey, I was a fan of the Realms AND Greyhawk AND Krynn. I've had to watch as all three settings have been given the Golden Enema on numerous occasions.
In that case, it's time to bury the hatchet, brother- I'm a huge Dragonlance fan, and while I loved the Taladas, War of Souls and Amber and Ashes trilogies, I have to say it's been given the drill over the past few years. Here's to old, beloved settings.
I said:
Let's keep things civil.
You said:
I wasn't trying to be uncivil. Just using the old tactic of trying to take an opponent's argument to its logical extreme and showing that it doesn't work.
My response:
I don't think that was the logical extreme of my argument- I thought at the extreme we'd have a dead Elminster and Drizzt and new heroes and villains to replace them, which is, as I said, exactly what I want.
I said:
Noone said they should take care of all of the problems, but they should take care of SOME of them. If the Zhentarim, Szass Tam, and most of the other baddies are still around scratching themselves(Szass Tam in particular seems to be dead and loving it in Unclean by Richard Lee Byers), then something's wrong. There should be more than a few cooling bodies of both villains AND heroes littering the realms.
You said:
There are. Dead super-villains: Sememmon, Halaster, the Ghazneths, Gilgeam, Zhengyi, Yamun Khahan, Bhaal, Myrkul, many Zhentarim higher-ups, many Red Wizard higher-ups...you just don't hear much about them anymore because they're dead.
My response:
Semmemon, Gilgeam and Zengyi were dead going in. Halaster died sometime in 3.0, so I think that's a point in your direction. Bhaal and Myrkul have BEEN dead since second ed, and as for the Zhentarim and Red Wizard higher-ups...well, if they didn't have a name, then they aren't exactly a super villain are they? And who is Yamun Khahan? Sounds like the name of a famous villain from Mobile Suit Gundam.
I said:
I'm not saying that I have a problem with Elminster being powerful, I have a problem with him not using that power in a way that's reflected in the world beyond a few lands remaining in the hands of their rightful rulers.
You said:
Again, I think you're overestimating Elminster's power. He can't just go out and singlehandedly wipe out nations/organizations headed by literally dozens of powerful mages, clerics, fighters, and spies with thousands of troops and highly defensible homelands. And if he gathered all the other good uber-NPCs together and tried to do so, they'd probably wipe out the Realms in the process. (Even more than Wizbro is wiping them out in 4e).
My response:
Okay, maybe I am overestimating him. Still, I'd like 4th ed a whole lot more if the world ended up that way because of that doomsday scenario you outlined.
I said:
Okay, that is two. But that's about it. Azoun was belly up at the start of the 3.0 FRCS, and Khelben met his end recently. When I said "a couple" I actually meant more than two, but I can't fault you for giving me my two. Can confirm Halaster and his sidekick buying it in a recent adventure?
You said:
Yes, although he was evil.
Many of those powerful NPCs will remain alive because of financial considerations...their stories and adventures make money for WotC. That's why Elminster is still around in 4e (even though by rights if Mystra is dead, he should be), and so is Drizzt. Don't know about any of the others.
My response:
Hey, maybe that's the problem. Some of these guys have been kept alive just to make money. Thanks for the heads up on the Halaster issue, it's been a debate at my table for a while.
I said:
So no, 4e Realms will NOT give me what I'm asking for. But that's not your fault, and I didn't mean to insinuate that it was, if that's why we seem to be getting heated over this difference in philosophy.
You said:
I wasn't heated, I was just arguing my position. And really, it doesn't matter much anymore because the Realms I knew is gone anyway, and I won't be playing the setting anymore.
You may find that when Paizo starts publishing Golarion fiction, you may run into the same concerns. You can tell stories about young parties just starting out their adventuring lives, but eventually you're going to want to start talking about dragons and archmages and rampaging demigods, and to do that you need high-level characters.
I should point out that the majority of Forgotten Realms fiction focuses on low to mid-level heroes. I just read "Swords of Eveningstar" by Ed Greenwood about the Knights of Myth Drannor as first-level bumbling noobs. Not an Elminster or naked Storm Silverhand in sight. Go through the list of FR novels, and you'll see a good spread from novies to epic-level.
My response:
Consider the hatchet buried. You're right- the Realms as we know them are gone save for in our own games. I agree on the Realms fiction, I really loved the Priests series and the Year of Rogue Dragons series, and those seemed to have moderately high level characters.
I do like how it is described. I've always been a big fan of not hearing about the catastrophies but actually living through them and feeling the effects of them.
I think it is cool how Toril is being transposed by Abeir in certain places, that is something I myself would do in my home campaign.
I guess the thing is, the old Realms were cool but I didn't hold any specific reverence for them, I did things you wouldn't believe to Faerun because I didn't just feel railroaded with the adventures but also the setting itself. My players weren't the type to pour through the setting book but rather relied on me to paint the world for them, so I did things that are actually very similar to what 4E did. I killed Dieties, made them like dead machines that still produce Divine magic, collapsed huge portions of the continent into the Underdark so that the interactions would be real. I staged massive invasions from the Red Wizards on sand ships and air ships. There was genocide waged against the dwarfs, the elves became even further isolationists and everything in a word, was f*cked.
But I like a setting like that, where the struggles are big and the threats are very very real. That is why I'm such a big Dark SUn fan, even though I never got to run a campaign there, only got to be a player.
I'm certainly not interested in 4e or 4Realms, but I'd love to see what your Realms are like. I'll gladly sign up for any of your games, and I'm also a huge Dark Sun fan as well.
Freehold DM:
Dude, I think you'd love my Realms. It's a real horror show. I had my players start in a concentration camp and have to break out. They hijacked a Thayan sand ship and crashed it into an underdark fissure. Now the new Sun Drow are chasing them through the collapsed waste lands and they're being dogged at every turn by elves from the surface.
The whole "Abeir reunites with Toril" things just makes me shake my head.
Do you know why the world was officially called "Abeir-Toril" instead of just "Toril", as Ed Greenwood named it? So that it would come first alphabetically in the old "Grey Box" from 1e. The Cyclopedia of the Realms in that set listed everything in alphabetical order, and they wanted to give an overview of the world itself ahead of everything else.
I wish I knew Ed Greenwood, to see what he really thinks about all of this, independent of his usual diplomatic attitude and need to pay his bills.
So, out of curiosity, does anyone like this? In particular, if you were not interested in the Realms before, does this make you want to play in it?
Nope. Not even a little bit.
Just curious -
I know the "quotes from Elminster" have a date that represents a 100 year jump in time.
But have they actually clarified that they are doing a 100 year jump, not the 10 year jump initially reported?
It occurs to me that they may do the Elminster quotes as artistic license and a way of putting the changes into perspective, but that doesn't mean they've actually advanced the timeline that far. If they only advance the actual campaign 10 years, then Elminster can be "in hiding" as earlier hints indicated, and all these historic-perspective statements of his can just be their way of promising the world will recover from the upheaval they've created.
Just curious -
I know the "quotes from Elminster" have a date that represents a 100 year jump in time.
But have they actually clarified that they are doing a 100 year jump, not the 10 year jump initially reported?
It's a 10-year jump to the Spellplague, and THEN a 100-year jump after that until the beginning of 4e Realms.
(Or, to be more exact, a 9-year jump to the Spellplague and then a 94-year jump to 4e...total, 103 years).
Yes, the 100 year jump is definite. Starting year of Realms 4e will be 1479 DR.
I have to say that I am excited (albeit in a limited way) to see just what these changes to the realms actually pan out to be. I remember the first adventure I bought (and still own and have converted for my new group) for the FR, Under Illifarn, and from then on I was hooked to the setting. That was probably in the early 80's and after reading the DragonLance novels. DragonLance never really appealed to me as a game setting in much the same way that the Wheel of Time setting never really did, but the books were great.
I remember reading the last Dragonlance novel before the new Age took over and lost me, and thinking that all game worlds have this happen. Heroes try and eventually fail, if only to the passing of time. Having Tanis Half-elven say the line about "going out through the kitchen" struck me (at the time - I was young) as one of the most enduring things that I would ever read and this oddly appropriate phrase has certainly stuck with me since.
Reading all the above responses, I have to say that despite the detractors and supporters, I'm ready for the change. I'm not sure that stretching my campaign to instantly include areas of transposed Abier or intergrating powerful new nation/race combos will occur. Heck, I've been gaming in the Realms for almost 20 years and have all the books (highly used) to prove it - but there are still areas that have never been visited by me or my group. Mazteca? Never been. Evermeet? Isn't that place mythical unless you're an elf? And isn't there some kind of oriental land on the other side of Thay or a whole continant of snake-worshiping folks?
Yeah, I've seen the setting go from 20 gods to 200, been back to the time of Netheral, deep in the heart of the Great desert and under it too, been on a trading mission to Ten Towns and flushed out Grell in the Vast Swamp in Cormyr, seen gods fall like comets from the sky when 3.0 came online and though I never did free Liira from Hell, I conqured the Bloodstone lands and bragged about it for weeks back in Middle School. Stupid Lich-King ridng a Dragon. I've had maybe 300 characters in this timeframe in five different editions (1, 2, 2.5 (remember the crappy "options", 3, 3.5) and DM'd um all too. Never once did I meet Elminster, Drizzt (although some kid in my son's 4th grade class is named Drizzt :P) or any of the other folks from the books... Wait - I did meet Fouzl way back in Pools of Radiance... but the game didn't need um to be fun.
When Azoun died I thought it was his time to go - and it made a great end of a story arc as well as a time of change. That's adventurer speak for getting off the tavern stool and honing the rust off your blade.
There are always hold-overs from the last generation. Grandparents tell us how it was in their day so we have something to compare today to, just like Drizzt and King Battlehammer will live to remind your characters, or ones like them, what is means to be a hero in a fantasy setting. My dad's grandfather was Caramon, so I'm taking up the sword and carving my name in history just like he did! Hey twin? There're no wizards in the family (mom says so)... wanna go adventuring together? Here... wear this red robe I found, 'cause wizards don't wear armor...
Beloved Realms? Yeah, I get that. But I like gaming too and if the "new" realms are a little too wierd for my taste, well - I've got 20 years of experience with it and I'm sure that with an afternoon's work I can find all the things I loved about it and make certain it remains a place I love to adventure in.
I too am very excited at the direction FR is going. I remember playing and reading all the books while growing up. On a side note about the kid named Drizzt that is great, certainly beats the kid that I know named Thor and the other named Tika.
I too am very excited at the direction FR is going.
Yeah, I don't know if I would say that I'm "very excited", but I am interested in reading about the changes to the magic system. IMO, there were many different magic systems in place already what with the additions to sorcerers in 3e, then truenamers and shadow adapts and shadow weave casters, then incarnium, warlocks, psionics... Gah!!!
In my early days of gaming, I think I read somewhere that wizards were rare, or at least uncommon, and that has certainly shaped my way of thinking into the 3.5 and now 4e rules. It seemed to me that the Realms were almost being overburdened with magic users towards the end. Others might not feel this way, but looking back as I am now, it seems to be the general trend. Magic in the early days was rare, but the Realms had more magic lying about from earlier highly magical fallen empires so it was ok to have a few more items there then I had in Greyhawk. Maybe it was because everything seemed to be based on treasure tables in 3e, but magic just seemed much more commonplace.I'm tentitively okay with the hard reboot of the magic system in the realms. I'm guessing that magic is something that might be universally feared now, and maybe in a more lynch-mob kind of way rather than the old well I might get hit by a miscast fireball one. I mean, mages can only cause just so many cataclysims before the populas wises up. So far, the realms are up to 5-6, not counting the spellplague.
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Somewhat off topic but how old is Drizzit in 3.5 because if I'm not mistaken one of the things they said they were doing was to severely cut back the age of elfs 300 years roughly wasn't it? so if they've done that i imagine a 100 year jump forward should be very significant aging even for him.
That's where his contract comes into play - specifically the Eternal Hero Clause. As long as sales of any book he appears in result in a profit for Hassbro, Drizzt is allowed to ignore such inconvenient rules as aging and the laws of physics. He tried to get that extended to affect the people around him, but they could only negotiate for a partial on the laws of physics rule.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Somewhat off topic but how old is Drizzit in 3.5 because if I'm not mistaken one of the things they said they were doing was to severely cut back the age of elfs 300 years roughly wasn't it? so if they've done that i imagine a 100 year jump forward should be very significant aging even for him.That's where his contract comes into play - specifically the Eternal Hero Clause. As long as sales of any book he appears in result in a profit for Hassbro, Drizzt is allowed to ignore such inconvenient rules as aging and the laws of physics. He tried to get that extended to affect the people around him, but they could only negotiate for a partial on the laws of physics rule.
Doesn't this apply to all the PCs in 4e? *ducks*
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Because when he does, he gets accused of being a deus ex machina and undercutting the PCs' chance to be heroic.
In the novels, he does ally with characters, from 1st level ones (that Spellfire chick) right on up to the Seven Sisters and Khelben.
I wish to add two things to Andrew's post here: First of all, Elminster is more of a 'mentor-type' NPC, who (for example) acted in this role for the fledgling Knights of Myth Drannor (low-level PCs in Ed Greenwood's "Home Realms"-campaign).
Secondly, sometimes you'll only achieve your long-term goals by inflitrating the ranks of your enemy, which Elminster has apparently done more than once. This is evident in the short story 'So High a Price' (first published in the 'Realms of Infamy'). There are also subtle hints that Elminster may have infiltrated the Inner Ring of a certain evil organization years and years ago -- I won't wish to elaborate this any further as I don't wish to spoil anything.
I'm not sure if the following was overlooked or not due to the massive chainsaw-and-sledgehammer magic reconstruction of the Realms, but this passage caught my attention:
Wizards, warlocks, clerics, sorcerers, bards, paladins, and even rogues, fighters, rangers, and other adventurers call upon personally derived threads of magic to cast mighty spells, enforce pacts with enigmatic entities, heal injury, ward against evil, or accomplish physical feats that transcend purely mortal means.
While it's been theorized that the game was heading this way, this was the first official acknowledgement I've seen of non-spellcasters (rogues, fighters) having "magic-fueled" abilities (ala "transcend purely mortal means"). PCs being stand-outs because of their heroic actions - I like. PCs being super-human, I'll take Mutants & Masterminds. Every class having magic power an ability - I'll take Earthdawn.
I was also completely turned off by the "new, improved, and cooler" Realms.
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Okay, maybe he can't be everywhere at once, but you said it yourself- he's pretty damn powerful. Maybe he can't be everywhere at once, but I'm sure he could be in more than one place at once, doing good. Any why wouldn't he ally with characters in working towards a common goal, regardless of level.
Forget the history, we have his stats and his list of spells! It would take time and effort on his part, certainly, and he'd definetly benefit from allies, but he could seriously hamper the Zhentarim by his lonesome, and greviously wound them with a few of his buddies helping out. It's not impossible- so why don't they?
Do I *want* them running around fixing everything? Heck no. But if they have the power to do so, and...
But if you *have* power, it doesn't mean that you're always willing to use it, right? There are a number of reasons why countries with nuclear weapons do not wipe out "the bad guys" in RL. They have the means and the power to do so, yet why don't they just do it? You know, it's not just because they are afraid of the international reaction, because in the end it doesn't really matter *that* much.
First of all, you need to consider the Collateral Damage (with capital letters). If the Chosen would go a-hunting BBEGs in the Realms, using all the powers and spells at their disposal, IMHO the Spellplague might seem like a harmless rash in comparison. It's not just that the Chosen are powerful Archmages -- most of their foes (e.g. Manshoon, Szass Tam, Red Wizards, Twisted Rune, etc.) are nearly their equal in power. Think of the damage to the Weave -- and not only on the local level (i.e. Wild Magic Areas and Dead Magic Areas). Do you truly think that Mystra would permit this? Not only would it violate her Portfolio (she *is* expected to be "impartial" and *not* a "Deity of Hunting Evil") but many of those aforementioned BBEGs are actually her *worshippers* (at least paying "lip service" to her and contributing to her power through spell research and by creating magic items, for example).
Then you need to think about what "good" is accomplished by hunting and killing all the powerful evil NPCs. Who's going to replace Manshoon or Fzoul after the rest of the Zhentarim have gone "underground"? What repercussions -- or acts of vengeance/retaliation -- will result after the Cult of the Dragon has recovered? Or what will the Red Wizards do? All of them would just go underground and become a more serious threat to the safety of Faerûn than ever ("So they're hunting us... why don't we give them something else to worry about. Let's blow up Suzail and Berdusk -- we already have agents in place. No need to worry about *their* response anymore as we're all dead men unless we act!"). Seriously. I could very well see them joining forces for a common goal -- to destroy the Chosen and seriously weaken Mystra's power. And they'd probably "ramp up" their security measures so that Harpers and Moonstars would find it nigh-impossible to ever infiltrate their ranks again.
And assuming that at least one of the BBEGs hears about this "Crusade of the Chosen" -- when you drive someone against the wall, he's going for desperate measures (as I already mentioned above). Besides their "minions", you don't think that Manshoon or Szass Tam have "Doomsday Spells/Devices" at their disposal? Or the willingness to use them as the last, desperate act to buy time? Or that they have not taken *some* kind of measures (others beyond a bunch of Contingency-spells) in the case they're killed before they get to react? It'd take time, for example, to hunt down *ALL* the Manshoon's Stasis Clones -- even if you know exactly where all of them are hidden.
I could go on and on, but nobody would bother to read it. Let's just say that 'power' does not simply equal your character level or items at your disposal -- it's also about influence and "leverage". For example, Elminster has slain Manshoon some 20 times and knows where *most* (if not all) of his Stasis Clones are hidden. So, Manshoon has to always worry about "pushing too far" and whether a certain operation is worth the risk of angering Elminster and consequently perhaps dying for the final time. So you could say that Elminster has leverage over Manshoon, and can influence his decisions. If Elminster actually *would* slay Manshoon permanently, he'd not have that kind of power over the next leader of the Zhentarim (who'd be much more careful and paranoid and probably rule "from the shadows"). It'd take Elminster a lot of digging to even learn his name. And in the end -- as I've tried to illlustrate above -- this would probably result in a ruthless response from the Zhentarim and a dramatic change in their long-term politics ("guerilla war" and "terrorist" attacks on "civilian"/Harper targets). You could say that the better the Devil you know that the Devil you don't, right?
And that sometimes it's better to influence events from the shadows, subtly playing your foes against each other -- which is *just* what the Harpers do ('Code of the Harpers' is a good reference on this subject).
I've argued on this subject time and time again on different boards, yet let me ask you this: if you're playing a Wizard 20/Archmage 5 character whose adventures consist of hopping on the planes and dealing with "Epic Matters", would you bother about some low-level bandits or a bunch of goblins harassing cattle near Shadowdale -- *especially* if your DM tells you that there are low-level adventures in town who're capable of dealing with the matter? Would you not rather go stop a minion of Szass Tam delivering his master *another* "Doomsday Device"? That's how I see the High-Level NPCs operating -- as "mentors" to low-level PCs and NPCs, because they have so much to do. While they might not go a-slaying the "Big Baddies", they will surely do their best to influence matters, if needed.
As my final point: please read the sidebar titled 'Concerns of the Mighty' in FRCS. It's a good start.
You said: As my final point: please read the sidebar titled 'Concerns of the Mighty' in FRCS. It's a good start.
My Response:
Still don't buy it.
I don't think many people who oppose my (and Set, by association) viewpoint are getting what I'm saying. I don't want Elminster to do EVERYTHING. What I want is for him to do SOMETHING that has a real, obvious impact on the realms. Not stopping doomsday scenarios that noone will ever hear about because they're stopped. If I wanted to read thrilling adventures that noone will ever hear about, I'll pick up an issue of Booster Gold. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I'm tired of Elminster and his ilk(other epic characters) being used as sticks to prod the storyline along- let them grow, live, and die in single blessedness, using the abilities they have to their fullest extent. No Elminster, I don't think you "mighty ones" are blind, but I DO want you to get off your duffs and do something other than explain how if you ever did anything, the sun would explode. This is Dungeons and Dragons/Forgotten Realms, not Second Edition World of Darkness Mage.
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That's where his contract comes into play - specifically the Eternal Hero Clause. As long as sales of any book he appears in result in a profit for Hassbro, Drizzt is allowed to ignore such inconvenient rules as aging and the laws of physics.
I think that 'inconvenient rules' pretty much applies to all of them. This is the dude who had a 2E write-up making him a Fighter / Ranger (a forbidden class combination) with Rogue and Assassin abilities just sort of sprinkled on top like chocalate sprinkles. Oh yes, he also had a pair of Bracers of the Blinding Strike, but when he put them on, they made him so ****ing awesome that he couldn't see his own swords moving and thought that it might be better if he wore them on his feet!
Yeah right. And I tried wearing this Hat of Disguise on my head, but it couldn't compete with the sheer awesomeness of my face, so I wear it over my John Thomas to shock the ladies...
Do you truly think that Mystra would permit this? Not only would it violate her Portfolio (she *is* expected to be "impartial" and *not* a "Deity of Hunting Evil")
You do play in the post-Time of Troubles Realms right? Mystra is very much not 'impartial,' and she, and the majority of her Chosen are good (well, it's written on their sheets anyway, even if they don't actually choose to do good, and, in the Simbul's case, are pretty close to 'evil dictator, prone to teleporting in and incinerating anyone who gets on her nerves'). The one Chosen who was said to be evil, Sammaster, is repudiated and referred to as insane and dangerous and, oh yeah, very dead. So she's definitely not a fan of the evil. She's even hating on Kelemvore for *being Neutral,* and actually doing his job impartially. She's actively worked against other gods whose actions offend *her* sense of morality, denying them access to the Weave and, in so doing, incurred a 'talking to' from Ao.
Mystra is many things, and 'impartial' is miles away from being one of them.