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Well, as DM Jeff said, people going to Expereince this year are probably mainly going to play 4E for the first time. They are porbably already sold on it. They will probably be biased towards having only positive things to say about it. But that's not my point. My point is, regardless of how they feel about 4E, a lot of them will probably be able to share some of the juicy bits about the new rules, some real mechanics besides a few smites, feats, the elf and the pit fiend.
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Well, as DM Jeff said, people going to Expereince this year are probably mainly going to play 4E for the first time.
That's not as big a draw as you may think. Living Greyhawk still has a huge pull and there will be some exclusive events played as the campaign winds down. Not all LG players are happy about 4E or the end of their campaign of choice.
Actually, I'm surprised these boards are even read by them let alone posted to, unless as an exercise to see at what depths people will go in their irrational and fanatical hatred of 4e and WotC in general and in personal attacks of the people who're making it in specific.
You are being short-sighted. There is value in negative commentary - especially with a marketing effort. Not that you can (or should) respond to every complaint, but knowing what criticism is out there makes you better prepared to face it going forward.
Mike Mearls has already commented regarding how easy it is to piss people off about a game they care greatly for, so I'm sure WotC is aware of the effect they're having in some cases. What they do with that knowledge could ultimately lead to the success or failure of the new game.
Knowledge is power.
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Well, as DM Jeff said, people going to Expereince this year are probably mainly going to play 4E for the first time.That's not as big a draw as you may think. Living Greyhawk still has a huge pull and there will be some exclusive events played as the campaign winds down. Not all LG players are happy about 4E or the end of their campaign of choice.
I'd forgotten that LG was wrapping up at Experience. I can see how a lot of Living Greyhawk players would be ticked about 4E.
knowing what criticism is out there makes you better prepared to face it going forward.
I wasn't addressing the totality of all possible criticism that exists. I was specific to vitriol.
There's a difference between criticism and vitriol, namely: One's worth taking seriously and is helpful and the other isn't--at all.
Before everyone dog piles on Rodney...actually my belief is that no one will, as Paizo fans are rock-solid people (and nobody has so far really)...I want to applaud him coming on here and responding. Rodney is a Grade A (for Awesome) dude, and this I can say from having sat at the table with the man and played our favorite game together. He is a really nice guy and he has an honest and big heart.
Thanks for your posts Rodney, they put a lot of things into perspective, and it's great to have you on here again.
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Before everyone dog piles on Rodney...actually my belief is that no one will, as Paizo fans are rock-solid people (and nobody has so far really)...
He may have had bad experiences with flameage on other sites. I've heard that the WotC site has been particularly scary the last few months, but haven't been there much to see it personally.
For all the seething pools of vitriol from 'haters' I've been admonished about, I seem to have been missing them, which is both refreshing, and yet also a little disappointing, as there was supposed to be bile-laden free cookies over here on the dark side...
Teapots and tempests, I guess. The fish never seems to be as big as it was in the story.
Good to see you back on the boards, Rodney. :-)
Before everyone dog piles on Rodney...actually my belief is that no one will, as Paizo fans are rock-solid people (and nobody has so far really)...He may have had bad experiences with flameage on other sites. I've heard that the WotC site has been particularly scary the last few months, but haven't been there much to see it personally.
For all the seething pools of vitriol from 'haters' I've been admonished about, I seem to have been missing them, which is both refreshing, and yet also a little disappointing, as there was supposed to be bile-laden free cookies over here on the dark side...
Teapots and tempests, I guess. The fish never seems to be as big as it was in the story.
It's true. These boards rock. Thanks to you all.
There's a difference between criticism and vitriol, namely: One's worth taking seriously and is helpful and the other isn't--at all.
Sort of.
Vitriol is usually caused by a feeling of being slighted in some way. Now granted, rambling on about how WotC is "evil" or whatnot doesn't accomplish much, but by understanding the reasons behind the vitriol, I think it can only help going forward.
Can you make everyone happy? Never. Some complain because they like to complain. But for those with issues - even emotional ones - I think it's good to know how all of your potential player base feels.
Out of curiosity, are you the same Moonlion who used to participate in the Fast Forward message boards?
Before everyone dog piles on Rodney...actually my belief is that no one will, as Paizo fans are rock-solid people (and nobody has so far really)...I want to applaud him coming on here and responding. Rodney is a Grade A (for Awesome) dude, and this I can say from having sat at the table with the man and played our favorite game together. He is a really nice guy and he has an honest and big heart.
Thanks for your posts Rodney, they put a lot of things into perspective, and it's great to have you on here again.
Oy, high praise. Thanks bud. For the record, Nick also runs a mean game of Marvel Superheroes.
Yeah, I was *mostly* joking about all the dog-piling and bursting into flames. I just run a much tighter ship on my own message boards (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com, for those who don't know) than either the Wizards or Paizo boards, so I tend to lie low when the raw anger I've seen on the WotC forums (and these, too; I won't lie that I've felt palpable hostility from some posters, if not directed toward me personally) rears its head.
Anyways, that's not the point.
I never stopped reading these forums, just stopped posting. Likewise, there's not a lot of Star Wars discussions over here, which is my primary responsibility, so I've been relegated to lurking instead.
So, yeah, I'm around. Of course you know I won't be able to reveal a lot of specifics, but I'll be reading. If I think I can jump in on a thread, I will (like I did here), but I'm not going to jump in and try and defend everything against a message board assault. It's also a little difficult to have every discussion get sucked back into "You killed the magazines, you bastard!" arguments (especially for me, since that decision was made before I even started working at Wizards!). But, you know, other than that, I'll be around to talk about...well, whatever I can. If someone has questions I can try to answer, but, well, you know how it goes with unreleased products.
*glomps Rodney, gives him cookies*
You don't really know a game until you've watched a munchkin tear it apart. ;)
That is a truth among truths, right there.
You don't really know a game until you've watched a munchkin tear it apart. ;)That is a truth among truths, right there.True - a munchkin can even ruin rock/paper/scissors.
You know, there is a perfect stance where you can actually keep your "throw" halfway between paper and scissors, so you have a half a second to figure out what your opponent's throw is.
Plus, if your GM allows expansions, Nuke and Volcano rule as long as you throw them before your opponent can think of Ablative Shield or Tectonic Plate.
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You don't really know a game until you've watched a munchkin tear it apart. ;)That is a truth among truths, right there.True - a munchkin can even ruin rock/paper/scissors.
You know, there is a perfect stance where you can actually keep your "throw" halfway between paper and scissors, so you have a half a second to figure out what your opponent's throw is.
Plus, if your GM allows expansions, Nuke and Volcano rule as long as you throw them before your opponent can think of Ablative Shield or Tectonic Plate.
LOL - when I was a kid a friend of mine would always try to add "claw" and he would figure out a way for it to beat everything. Then I added "punch" and that cured him.
If I think I can jump in on a thread, I will (like I did here),
Well its good to hear from you when you do.
Sort of.
Vitriol is usually caused by a feeling of being slighted in some way. Now granted, rambling on about how WotC is "evil" or whatnot doesn't accomplish much, but by understanding the reasons behind the vitriol, I think it can only help going forward.
Sorry, but I disagree. Vitriol is never warranted. Regardless of the reason, it is the tactic of people who think nothing of insulting someone they have never met - which is a sad thing.
It's a poor method of venting frustration or expressing opinion. If someone can't find a better way to say "I'm pissed" than to insult someone, then they shouldn't be posting.
Greg
Out of curiosity, are you the same Moonlion who used to participate in the Fast Forward message boards?
Indeed! And: Holy cats that's a blast from the distant past.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Vitriol is usually caused by a feeling of being slighted in some way. Now granted, rambling on about how WotC is "evil" or whatnot doesn't accomplish much, but by understanding the reasons behind the vitriol, I think it can only help going forward.
What if the reason behind the vitriol is that the person is irrationale and has an overwhleming sense of what is best for the game? Is vitriol acceptable from such a person? Should the company be expected to address the concerns of a particularly fanatical fan who's concerns are not shared by anyone except that person?
Out of curiosity, are you the same Moonlion who used to participate in the Fast Forward message boards?Indeed! And: Holy cats that's a blast from the distant past.
Heh - I was very impressed the way you participated on those boards. You were genuinely interested in helping them get better, but in the end, I don't think they appreciated what you were trying to do.
What if the reason behind the vitriol is that the person is irrationale and has an overwhleming sense of what is best for the game? Is vitriol acceptable from such a person? Should the company be expected to address the concerns of a particularly fanatical fan who's concerns are not shared by anyone except that person?
Vitriol is usually caused by a feeling of being slighted in some way. Now granted, rambling on about how WotC is "evil" or whatnot doesn't accomplish much, but by understanding the reasons behind the vitriol, I think it can only help going forward.
No, they'll never please everyone, of course. And, certainly you don't act on every complaint (or complainer). However, I think you look for patterns, and if enough people are spewing similar complaints, then investigating the cause of them (if you care) can help going forward.
I've gotta' say, I've never heard of this Rodney guy until today--but that said, I clicked his handle and read all of his recent posts. After having done so I gots to say I like the man. He's welcome at my table anytime.
Just so he knows too, not everyone here is a 4e hater. I actually got sold on the new game from the things I read here on these boards. From day one, when I heard there was a new edition in the works, this was the place I came to hear the scoop, to talk about and discuss it. I figured if there was a place out in the world where I could hear every possible viewpoint it'd be here.
That said, there have been some posts I've had to put the hotmits on for, and others I've gone redfaced and pounded my desk over. But, on the whole, there's been as much genuine interest and excitement about the game as there has been fire and brimstone.
Honestly I'm really excited. Our whole group is. The new Realms era sounds awesome like crazy. I might even finally pick up Eberron this time around. For once there's a solid wide open setting for the modules to live in (and from what I've read about it in the Worlds and Monsters book) it looks great. I love that flavor and story seem to be getting a big hit in the new edition. I love that D&D is taking some fresh steps into a different and more original kind of fantasy (love Tolkien to death and all, but it's nice to see D&D come into it's own and openly draw from more different diverse sources).
Now granted I'm gonna' Grimcleaver the heck out of it when I get it. No edition is safe from that! But I really am looking forward to getting it in my hot little hands.