My PCs found out about making the runeforged weapons, and then did not do it. I was wondering why all session. Finally found out: they are contemplating trying to force the magic back toward the Thassilonian virtues instead, because they think sin-forged weapons are going to be bad for them.
We looked up the virtues and were immediately stymied by the equation enchantment==fertility. So we're going to use enchantment==loyalty instead. (Maybe fealty is a better word--the love owed a master by a subordinate. Certainly a virtue the Thassilonians appreciated.)
Now the PCs need to find tokens steeped in the appropriate virtue. There clearly aren't any in Runeforge. The ones we worked out:
tassels from Ilsurian's battle-flag for loyalty
stones from the top of the Arvensoar for honest pride
pillows from a sleeping-saint of Desna for repose
a hero's weapons for righteous anger
something from a dragon-hoard for wealth
We're still looking for abundance and eager striving.
I like the ambiguity of these virtues--they suggest a society quite different from modern Varisia, or from modern US either. They are not the PCs' default moral virtues by any means, which should be interesting roleplaying fodder.
I don't know if the Halfling of Wrath can find the fine line between righteous anger and wrath, especially with Athroxis and her people as role models....
Mary
Perhaps a cornucopia or something along those lines for abundance. As for eager striving, the sweat of an honest worker.
The cornucopia is a good example - a sheaf of wheat or corn would work too. Eager striving...hm...that one's a bit tough. Maybe artisans' tools?
For Wealth, instead of just something stolen, maybe it has to be a gift, freely given, by a ruler? That way, it represents 'virtuous wealth' rather than 'kill things and take their stuff wealth'. Small distinction, but if you're talking virtue, you want to be technical...
Eager striving is the virtuous side of envy right? So it would be like looking at someone you admired and working hard to try to be like them, being inspired. So perhaps some kind of training device or books that are studied (something related to learning to be like someone you admire).
Unless you're a paladin, in which case it's still righteous anger. ;-)
Well, now all I've got to do is find me a bar. :D
Yeah, I love the idea of the seven sins as corruptions of what were once virtues, but the actual virtues did seem a tad weird--often feeling like an attempt to turn a vice into a virtue rather than searching out a genuine related virtue.
Here's what I've been working on in that regard, trying to stick as close to the main ideas as possible:
Sloth-Peace
Pride-Confidence
Envy-Zeal
Wrath-Justice
Greed-Wealth
Lust-Fertility
Gluttony-Abundance
I like these, though a few are still a little less "virtues" and more "stuff that's good when it happens to you" ie. Wealth, Fertility and Abundance. It's hard to be Abundant--and while you can be Wealthy or Fertile, it's not like it's something you do or have tremendous control over.
We looked up the virtues and were immediately stymied by the equation enchantment==fertility. So we're going to use enchantment==loyalty instead.
I think they went for fertility because it had to be something that could be corrupted into lust. Loyalty and Lust don't fit. I could see Loyalty turning into tyranny, or blind faith, or something, but that's not in the list of 7.
And, to defend fertility: It can be a virtue if you don't be frigid and scorn thy suitors. It's the ultimate fruit of your love. It's also good to ensure the continued existance of your line, so your blood can continue to serve (your race, nation, faith...) after you went to your rest.
And, to borrow some sentiments from today: It shows that you're not just about career, but about family, too. You're not one of those who won't have children because their ambitions force them to be about their work and nothing else.
I think they went for fertility because it had to be something that could be corrupted into lust. Loyalty and Lust don't fit. I could see Loyalty turning into tyranny, or blind faith, or something, but that's not in the list of 7.
It works for me because the Runelords' interpretation of Lust seems to rely heavily on dominance/submissiveness. (Look at what the Sword of Lust does in "Seven Swords of Sin.") "Loyalty" is probably the wrong word for what I want, but I haven't hit on exactly the right word: it would be the almost worshipful love a good Thassilonian servant should feel for his master. (And conversely, the pleasure given the master by the servant's submission.) "Devotion," maybe.
And, to defend fertility: It can be a virtue if you don't be frigid and scorn thy suitors. It's the ultimate fruit of your love. It's also good to ensure the continued existance of your line, so your blood can continue to serve (your race, nation, faith...) after you went to your rest.
I have no problem with fertility being a virtue, but the idea that Xin established a school of *enchantment* mages bound to the virtue of fertility is very hard for me. Enchantment==lust makes perfect sense, but enchantment==fertility is a pretty severe mismatch. That's why I went with the devotion of servant to master instead.
The fundamental problem is that the correspondence between schools and vices is fairly loose, and each additional layer of correspondences makes it looser (going from vices to virtues, or vices to opposing schools--why would Wrath be particularly adverse to Envy?) I haven't found a fix, so I'm doing the best I can.
Mary
Let me know if this sounds plausible. I like the idea that if the PCs want to try to find Virtuous items to fuel the Runewell, they should have a chance. However, finding items from old Thassilon would be a bit hard, so I am considering allowing relics from the current good gods of Varisia work as well. Conveniently, there are 7 good aligned gods listed in the players guide.
With that in mind, rather than using the Thassilon Virtues of Rulership from PF #1, I did a search for the Seven Virtues and found the Seven Contrary Virtues. Humility, Kindess, Abstinence, Chastity, Patience, Liberality, and Diligence protect against their respective sins (In order: Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Lust, Anger, Greed, and Sloth).
I've been thinking of dropping the Monarch Talisman somewhere in the path. I was also going to play up the aspect that the item is often given away to those who need it. As an artifact of Desna, and something that is charitably given, I thought that would be a nice item to fuel a runeforged weapon to oppose Greed.
Does anyone see any major holes in this? There's another good post about how Thassilon and Sin magic don't have to make too much sense. I'm paraphrasing, but I also agree with that thread. However, I also feel I'm going a bit out of the box on this one.
because they think sin-forged weapons are going to be bad for them.
They are not the PCs' default moral virtues by any means, which should be interesting roleplaying fodder.
Mary
When I read the preview for RotRL, I thought runeforged weapons would be cool, then noticed later on that they are more sin forged weapons, which suits some game groups, but not mine...in fact, if a paladin or good cleric actual forged a sin-related runeforge weapon, well, that'd be the first time in 20 years that a character would be losing some deity-supported powers. [one common theme in Paizo's products is a bunch of evil, a lot of gray, but very little real good. I'd love to see a bit of emphasis on virtue and a few champions of good crop up]
I did two things to circumvent this problem in taste: first, I've had all of the PCs come into contact with runic magic somehow (two planetouched have been having dreams and are having rune-like markings emerge on their hands, the wizard suffered a critical hit by a matriarch to her eye and the pupil changed to a runic shape, and one character has a brace of daggers that was given to him by a romantic interest (the daggers hilts are carved to represent the four seasons, and their spontaneously become magic...i.e. the DM is turning them slowly into runeforged weapons).
Second, I'll be redrafting the forging of rune weapons to be based on a reconsecration of the runeforge. The cleric character gets to feel awesome and everyone gets suped-up items, so they'll be happy.
We played out the virtue-forged weapons this afternoon. The tokens ended up being:
Repose--sachets from the bed of a sleeping saint of Desna (at Windsong Abbey)
Righteous Anger--ashes from Foxglove Manor (in memory of all three of the women who died there)
Wealth--the first two silver pieces Risa's tavern ever earned (thanks to the poster who suggested that one!)
Abundance--fruit from a magical everbearing tree in Sanos Forest
Eager Striving--two feathers found on top of the Arvensoar
Devotion--friendship bracelets from Yapp, the pixie who brought the PCs to Whitewillow
Honest Pride--tassels from the banner of Ilsurian
A couple of these made nice side scenes. When the PCs climbed the Arvensoar they saw visions of Thassilon through the high windows. (I don't think you could really see both Xin-Bakhrakan and Xin-Shalast from there, without magic, but I liked the image of the Runelords' cities brooding over the enslaved countryside.) The saint of Desna gave one PC a vision of the skulks praying for aid. The guardian of the magical tree, a servant of Selyn, offered some advice on how Xin-Shalast might break the party's cohesion if they didn't hold to their love of one another. And the PCs ended up carrying an offer from Ilsurian to the upstream towns, so there will now likely be a whole coalition of free towns under the Ilsurian banner. (Serves Magnimar right for paying so little attention!)
The weapons themselves, hm. The PCs really wanted to craft the whole set, but in play this led to immediate information overload for player and GM. Hopefully it will sort itself out eventually.
The PCs' choice for the weapon effective against Karzoug turned out to be the Staff of Hungry Shadows (Kazaven's weapon from Runeforge), which is just...weird. I wonder if Runelord Zutha is laughing somewhere in the background.
Mary