RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So, I'm assembling a new campaign, and in the middle of looking over the themes and some possible overall plot structures, I notice:
this could be an all-invasion campaign. We could go from an invading / colonizing orcish fleet, to the invasion of Red Hand of Doom, to an invasion of Yuan-ti and Ghouls, to an attempt by mind-flayers to extinguish the sun and allow for their coming, to a full-fledged invasion of the githyanki.
And it occurs to me that D&D runs on the trope: invasion is always bad. After all, how many modules are there where the heroes invade already-populated areas and set up their own government?
(Okay, come to think of it, quite a few. But those invasions aren't evil, because, ... well, they're just not.)
Other tropes: just being undead is pretty much universally bad. Throwing away part of yourself so that you avoid / cheat / delay death is wrong. I realized this when I read the Superstar entry about a dryad turning into something very bad because she was trying to cheat death. When it's your time to go, go with dignity. And stay gone.
(Have you noticed that current editions don't have potions of longevity?)
Are there any other big tropes you've noticed?
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Are there any other big tropes you've noticed?
Things where a color that a character wears, the color of a character's magical effects, color of an artifact, or color of weapons indicates its alignment.
Examples:
- The Black Knight in most fantasies is a bad guy, possibly a main bad guy.
- A good guy's magical weapon glows blue.
- Heroes and villains who wear colors almost completely opposite each other, such as the bad guy wearing deep red with black outlines while the good guy wears earth-tones or blue and silver.
- The Evil Magician's magic has a shadowy appearance while the Good Magician's magic has a blue, white, or gold glow.
- The villain's eyes are red.
- Et cetera.
I'm trying to avoid this with the villains in Tyrra. For instance, one of the main bad guys is symbolized by the color Blue.
Other things that get on my nerves are the villains who form alliances, then betray each other just to be contrary.
Then there's the villains who find one of their generals has failed them, so the Big Bad draws his weapon, points it at the general, then quickly turns away and kills some random underling saying "that is the price of failure". If that was the price of failure, then the general would be dead. That doesn't show your other generals that you'll kill them, that shows them you apparently value them too much to do so. KILL THE GENERAL WHO FAILS YOU!!
Then there's the villain's spies who apparently have to have something official on them so if they get beaten up by the good guys, it can be used as proof that they work for the villain(example: Official Empire of Evil Special Forces Tatoo, Wearing the official boots of the Empire of Evil's Army, and so on).
Chaotic Neutral villain's who are insane. This is not a necessity for insanity. A game can have an insane villain who is Lawful Good, but because of his insanity he's doing all this evil stuff thinking its good.
Do you really want me to go on?
Villains make or break a good fantasy theme for me.
A good villain makes things so much more memorbale.
Things to watch out for.
1. incompadent underlings
2. A bad guy who is bad just for the sake of being bad. Most true to life villains have reasons and justifications for what they do.
3. Dont make your heroes too perfect. Flaws are what make people interesting. If your superman who cares...
One thing i reccomend is to throw in a suprise. Like a real suprise. I know its made my day in the past when a good book or game throws in something i never saw comming.
A good tatic is to steal from other media types and make it your own. Got a favorite tv theme or momement? change it up into your story.
hope this helps.
Trope:
Trope (literature)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaA literary trope is a common pattern, theme, or motif in literature. For instance, the "Misunderstood Monster" is a trope; Frankenstein is the seminal story utilizing this trope, which has subsequently formed the basis for numerous other literary and cinematic works. Literary tropes may refer to characters (e.g. the noble savage), plot (the clever prison break), or setting (the haunted castle).
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Then there's the villain's spies who apparently have to have something official on them so if they get beaten up by the good guys, it can be used as proof that they work for the villain(example: Official Empire of Evil Special Forces Tatoo, Wearing the official boots of the Empire of Evil's Army, and so on).
Thats what they get for wearign comfortable boots. (I've had this go the other way and a smart general grabbed a pc when his nat 20 spot check noticed that his boots were 'noble leather that no soldier could afford' which was bad when said general knows the nobles in his division on sight
Here's one: The Past Was Always Better.
Most of the established campaigns (not all) go on the assumption that long-ago empires were grander, ancient magic was more powerful, villains were more wicked, heroes bolder, etc. And everything in the present day is a shadow of what it once was.
A great read to break this commonality is Villains by Necessity by Eve Foreward (who also, by the way, does the master paint jobs for most of the recent D&D minis)
Here's one: The Past Was Always Better.
Most of the established campaigns (not all) go on the assumption that long-ago empires were grander, ancient magic was more powerful, villains were more wicked, heroes bolder, etc. And everything in the present day is a shadow of what it once was.
I blame the Roman Empire on this. Damn Romans. They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, and what have they ever given us in return?!
The aqueduct?
Here's one: The Past Was Always Better.
Most of the established campaigns (not all) go on the assumption that long-ago empires were grander, ancient magic was more powerful, villains were more wicked, heroes bolder, etc. And everything in the present day is a shadow of what it once was.
I blame the Roman Empire on this. Damn Romans. They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, and what have they ever given us in return?!
The aqueduct?
Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Attendee: Brought peace?Reg: Oh, peace - shut up!
Reg: There is not one of us who would not gladly suffer death to rid this country of the Romans once and for all.
Dissenter: Uh, well, one.
Reg: Oh, yeah, yeah, there's one. But otherwise, we're solid.
Then there's the villain's spies who apparently have to have something official on them so if they get beaten up by the good guys, it can be used as proof that they work for the villain(example: Official Empire of Evil Special Forces Tatoo, Wearing the official boots of the Empire of Evil's Army, and so on).
Ooh I hates this. As much as I love the published adventure, this is the plot device that I always change first. "Look, he was carrying a map back to his lair" "Look, he was carrying the instructions to his mission" "look, they detailed their entire plot in manuscript form."
I'm also tired of the D&D Big Picture making "adventurers" an assumed part of the economy. "Look, dear, adventurers. Perhaps we should direct them to the Adventurer's Guild to make sure they pay their Adventurer's Tax."
Clerk: Occupation?
Regdar: Adventurer.
Clerk: Home of Record?
Regdar: The tavern.
Here's one: The Past Was Always Better.
Most of the established campaigns (not all) go on the assumption that long-ago empires were grander, ancient magic was more powerful, villains were more wicked, heroes bolder, etc. And everything in the present day is a shadow of what it once was.
In my experience this is mainly to provide adventure opportunities. If you make the world to young then you've eliminated the chance to battle all forms of ancient evil or to explore ancient ruins.
The world not being too advanced helps one throw monsters all over the place. If the game is based in a highly efficient and very powerful empire then their tends to be no place for free lance hero's.
I'm also tired of the D&D Big Picture making "adventurers" an assumed part of the economy.
Clerk: Home of Record?
Regdar: The tavern.
What seperates an Adventurer from a Homeless Person with a Weapon?
What seperates an Adventurer from a Homeless Person with a Weapon?I'm also tired of the D&D Big Picture making "adventurers" an assumed part of the economy.
Clerk: Home of Record?
Regdar: The tavern.
How well they can use said weapon.
Well, the color thing is just a basic artistic theme. Darkness is bad, light is good. Thus, the black knight, necromancers wearing black, good-guys wearing gleaming armor and lighter colors (I haven't personally noticed too much association with the color blue). You'll find that as a fundamental precept of Western art (I'm not qualified to comment on Eastern; I have no clue what the fundamentals are there).
The same thing can be said about the romanticized past. Yes, it does have to do with making room for adventurers, but that box can be thought outside of with ease. I think it's more about D&D latching on to common and pervasive themes and imageries from fantasy, and beyond that, culture in general. The past is romanticized. Every generation says things were better when they were young. Every generation complains that things aren't like they used to be, are changing to fast, "they don't make 'em like they used to." This is nothing new; look at the Iliad, and the general Greek concept of the hero.
My point here is that these things aren't necessarily staid, though they can become such with poor execution. Rather, they are simply fundamental assumptions and themes found in the West which influence everything all the way down to D&D adventures.
Likewise, invasion in D&D usually has to do with something other than humans; orcs, undead, aberrations, demons, outsiders in general. Conflicts between humans are usually depicted in the mode of war; as the antagonist becomes less and less human (orcs are more human than mind flayers, for example), the more and more the conflict shifts to tones of invasion, and the more and more insidious it becomes. It's a very basic play on the fear of the unknown.
Again, this doesn't have to become "old," or "tired," though it can be (and even if they are used properly, thinking outside the box is still to be encouraged). Rather, they serve as very useful building blocks that people automatically understand and know how to interact with.
I get the sense, a little from this thread but more from others in the past, that many people often think following convention to any notable degree is bad. There is a drive for independence, creativity, and originality that may be a little unnecessary; or rather, taken a bit too far. But, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Rather than rejecting common formats all together, one can try to understand what makes them strong, and how they can become weak. Thus you can continue to use, benefit from, and enjoy them without beating them to death. A perfect example is Pathfinder and their goblins (amongst other things); they continue to have a classic feel to them, yet are totally different from the traditional goblin, which had become tired because of poor execution, conception, and implementation.
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What seperates an Adventurer from a Homeless Person with a Weapon?I'm also tired of the D&D Big Picture making "adventurers" an assumed part of the economy.
Clerk: Home of Record?
Regdar: The tavern.
Have you seen the awful 3 musketeers adaptation called the musketeer put out in 2001-2002? they distinguish between the two there (something along the lines of "Your 'peasants' own awfully expensive weapons"
"and you fight very well for 'cooks'"|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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You know, I look at my original post, and I can see how I wasn't very clear about what I was asking.
I noticed some big ideas about "the way the world works" hard-wired into D&D. Tropes. Invasion is bad. Just becoming undead is bad.
The trope of "the past was bigger than today" is another good example. (And one that Tolkein ernestly exploited. The First Age was filled with epic and godlike characters. The Third Age, not so much. Fourth Age promises to be even more gray, stable, mundane.)
Humans aren't as quick as elves or as doughty as dwarves, but are destined to take over the world, because they're adaptable.
Magic is not, essentially, evil. It doesn't bear a cost in sanity or humanity. It's a tool, much like technology.
What other "great truths" do you folk see as being hard-wired into D&D?
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2. A bad guy who is bad just for the sake of being bad. Most true to life villains have reasons and justifications for what they do.
Yeah, I second that. The best way to avoid this is to keep one thing in mind. Once you drop what the bad guy and the good guy are doing and their methodology, they are essentially the same basic character. They both feel that what they are doing is completely justified and/or necessary. In essence, both of them believe themselves to be the hero of the story.
As long as you remember that, the villain becomes much easier to run and seems more like an actual person.
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Thats what they get for wearign comfortable boots. (I've had this go the other way and a smart general grabbed a pc when his nat 20 spot check noticed that his boots were 'noble leather that no soldier could afford' which was bad when said general knows the nobles in his division on sight
Then there's the villain's spies who apparently have to have something official on them so if they get beaten up by the good guys, it can be used as proof that they work for the villain(example: Official Empire of Evil Special Forces Tatoo, Wearing the official boots of the Empire of Evil's Army, and so on).
Heh, yes, a smart general would notice that.
A clever general would think of such things ahead of time and have every soldier's uniform custom tailored, so that the heroes' who knock one out will be easily identified by the poor fitting clothes they steal. :D
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Hmmm,
Great Truth leads to lots o' tropes:
Truth:
D&D is played by folks that may not know high art from hi arse. . .
Thus they use tropes to make the game smooth and understandable.
[Tangent?] I recently planed for one NPC to use change self to look like another NPC that the PCs were suspicious of just before the first was caught red-handed, and then teleport away.
I decided not to and let the PCs see who the bad guy really was. GOOD choice.
I let the PCs know about my DM decision and to a player they admitted they would have gone straight off and killed the NPC scapegoat, thus potentially derailing the game.
[/Tangent?]
As for a big picture: I think we have to "dumb down" *certain* aspects of the game. I mean, even the most involved players and DMs only see their PCs and NPCs for very tiny amounts of their "lives." And we don't see them as well as we see our real life. We don't roleplay every waking hour of their days. We certainly don't see every iota of innuendo or gesture. It's okay to keep it simple. It's necessary, even.
-W. E. Ray
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I agree. We do need to keep some minor cliches in the game so that the players have a general idea of what's going on.
However, we don't need to have the villain always be the sorcerer who lives atop a spire at the edge of a cliff. A sorcerer who just happens to have a widow's peak, wear all black, and hates the world for no reason.
Unless we feel like a short comedy based campaign, where players can build traps with banana peels and roller skates.
You know, I look at my original post, and I can see how I wasn't very clear about what I was asking.
I noticed some big ideas about "the way the world works" hard-wired into D&D. Tropes. Invasion is bad. Just becoming undead is bad.
The trope of "the past was bigger than today" is another good example. (And one that Tolkein ernestly exploited. The First Age was filled with epic and godlike characters. The Third Age, not so much. Fourth Age promises to be even more gray, stable, mundane.)
Humans aren't as quick as elves or as doughty as dwarves, but are destined to take over the world, because they're adaptable.
Magic is not, essentially, evil. It doesn't bear a cost in sanity or humanity. It's a tool, much like technology.
What other "great truths" do you folk see as being hard-wired into D&D?
Gods are real entities, which can be encountered and spoken with just like any other being.
Balance between Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos (particularly in DragonLance, but somewhat in other settings, too).
Evil races are all primitive and never develop real societies of their own unless they conquer someone else and enslave them (I'm talking goblins, orcs, ogres, etc.).
Multiple pantheons exist in the same world when it seems like they should not if both are equally real (which they are). Further, these almighty gods, which are equally real and could make their presence known to all peoples across the globe, settle for just being worshipped by some groups in certain areas.
Not quite on target, but still- caves in D&D rarely look like real caves. I've spent a good amount of time in limestone caverns, and they are usually quite different from what you find in adventures.
Further, dungeons always seem to be underground for some reason.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Thanks, Saern. You're cool.
Gods are real entities, which can be encountered and spoken with just like any other being.
Balance between Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos (particularly in DragonLance, but somewhat in other settings, too).
As an aside, I disagree with this fundamental concept.
I jokingly call this the Annikin Effect. Oooh. Annikin is supposed to bring "balance" to the force. Note to the Jedi Council: when you have an entire Republic looking up to you, and political clout, and a lot of powerful members; and when the Sith are stuck with only two guys who are operating in secret, maybe "balance" isn't what you want!
Ahem. continuing...
Evil races are all primitive and never develop real societies of their own unless they conquer someone else and enslave them (I'm talking goblins, orcs, ogres, etc.).
People are evil because of their race. When Lovecraft said that about the Tcho Tcho, people called him racist. D&D simply makes the "evil races" less and less human.
Seriously, if the Norse attacked your village, and you took the fight back to their homeland and killed all their warriors, do you think you've be having a discussion about killing all the Icelandic women and children because "they're born evil"?
but that brings us to:
Multiple pantheons exist in the same world when it seems like they should not if both are equally real (which they are).
Goblins are "born evil" because they worship evil gods. There's probably a feedback loop going on there: goblin parents dedicate their infants to Asmodeus, who works his will on the baby, giving it a strong inclination towards a diabolically-aligned lifestyle.
Which makes me think that something like Consecrate might allow evil-raced babies to grow up free of that taint. Of course, then the gnolls are rading human towns to case Desecrate on the towns' children.
Not quite on target, but still- caves in D&D rarely look like real caves. I've spent a good amount of time in limestone caverns, and they are usually quite different from what you find in adventures.
Further, dungeons always seem to be underground for some reason.
If they were aboveground, we'd call them "ruins".
Not quite on target, but still- caves in D&D rarely look like real caves. I've spent a good amount of time in limestone caverns, and they are usually quite different from what you find in adventures.Further, dungeons always seem to be underground for some reason.
If they were aboveground, we'd call them "ruins".
This does bring up the point that dungeons "travel" down.
What about one filled with ladders going up?
Oh! Then the dungeon can have chutes that slide down. The dreaded Dungeon of Chutes and Ladders.This does bring up the point that dungeons "travel" down.
What about one filled with ladders going up?
Much better then the adventure "Into the lands of the Hungry, Hungry Hippos".
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Oh! Then the dungeon can have chutes that slide down. The dreaded Dungeon of Chutes and Ladders.This does bring up the point that dungeons "travel" down.
What about one filled with ladders going up?Much better then the adventure "Into the lands of the Hungry, Hungry Hippos".
Or Keep on the Border of Candyland.
Yikes!
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Saern: "Evil races are all primitive and never develop real societies of their own unless they conquer someone else and enslave them (I'm talking goblins, orcs, ogres, etc.)."
I'd say "often" instead. See, for example, the Drow, Hobgoblins, Githyanki/Githzerai (whichever) and so on. While those races conquer and enslave, I don't think that was a necessary prerequisite for their societal development, but rather a consequence of that development.
Saern: "Not quite on target, but still- caves in D&D rarely look like real caves. I've spent a good amount of time in limestone caverns, and they are usually quite different from what you find in adventures."
That's certainly true. A few years ago, I visited Jewel Cave in the Black Hills. In the bookshop at the visitor's center, I picked up maps of both Jewel Cave and Wind Cave. (You can see a portion of one of them here.) One of these days, I'll spring one on a group.
D&D maps aren't so different from some sorts of mines, though. For instance I once visited a salt mine in Germany that had boat rides across an underground lake and wooden slides that the miners used to get down into the mine efficiently. No traps, but I might have missed my Spot check, of course.
For those interested: Some actual cave maps.
Also a good twist (Dangerdwarf reminded me about it) is Reverse Dungeon from 2E where you see it from the monsters side. Heroes invading your home and slaughtering your family, etc.