Number one question: Why on earth would the players destroy the tear?
I don't see any reason. Basically the players are told to destroy the tear by a (likely) chaotic evil ghost. Maybe I missed something but here's what I picked up as a player.
1) the Kopru take slaves
2) the Kopru give pearls
3) and destroying the tear supposedly ends the pearl operation
but how does that even remotely make sense? A ghost trapped in an underground temple is supposed to know that destroying the tear ends the creation of shadow pearls miles bellow the surface. Are we supposed to believe that the Kopru were talking about their greatest weakness while (or while waiting to) meet Troglodytes?
Know here's what we know about the Koprus
1) they're evil and sacrificing people
2) they're making shadow pearls
3) they breath underwater
Worse still, supposing the PCs flubbed all their Knowledge skills (which our group did), there's the matter of the 'demon fish' (a.k.a. the abolths)
1) they once were a source of great evil
2) they once caused enough destruction on the surface that the ancient Olmans were foced to build some sort of artifact to remove all the water.
3) they don't die out of water, rather they go into hibernation, and theoretically, if returned to water, they would be revived.
4)demon fish control people's minds.
5) demon fish breath only underwater
So, destroying the tear brings back the water, and at this point (for our party) most of the PCs don't breath underwater. So destroying the tear would
1) bring the water back
2) awaken the demon fish
3) increase the mobility of the Kopru
4) possibly drown the PCs
When we get to Golismorga we discover that there aren't even any Kopru guards around the tear! Now if this were an Achilles heel you'd at least expect to see Kopru guards! So, as best we can figure, if we destroy the pearl we flood the tunnels (trapping us) and possibly even dooming most of the PCs if we have no other way of escape. We bring back the demon fish. We may or may not end shadow pearl production. We restore the horrible city.
Why on earth would anyone destroy the tear? I would think the PCs would want to get into that ziggurat and see what's going on in there. Personally I think the obvious choice for the PCs would be to try to destroy the Kopru and leave the pearl alone.
Well...then don't destroy the tear. I'm reluctant to say more that might possibly spoil the game for you, since my understanding is that you're actually still playing Tristan Lidu.
MrFish wrote: Well...then don't destroy the tear. I'm reluctant to say more that might possibly spoil the game for you, since my understanding is that you're actually still playing Tristan Lidu. We finished the lightless depths Sunday (and seeing as I have the adventure I've been slowly leafing through it but I haven't seen any reason to destroy it yet).
I generally agree then. The thing is to deal with the kopru. The other thing is as you say suspiciously easy--all you have to do is manage to sneak through the city without the living bits eating you or something.
MrFish wrote: I generally agree then. The thing is to deal with the kopru. The other thing is as you say suspiciously easy--all you have to do is manage to sneak through the city without the living bits eating you or something. The fight with the Kopru was by no means an easy task, we certainly weren't powerful enough to defeat the Kopru hoards in a single climactic battle, instead it was a running battle that lasted for days, but with teleport and word of recall we could retreat to Farshore when things started to get ugly. The Kopru didn't have that advantage.
Also it's not as if the first thing we did was attack the Kopru once we discovered the ziggarut. We explored the city, dealt with many of the encounters and surprises in the city first, and then once we had explored as much as we could, we made our decision.
The reason I ask is our DM seemed upset that we didn't follow the adventure the way it was written. My problem is that I simply don't see why anyone would have destroyed the tear. That was always a last resort/ contingency plan for us, but I think the general censuses with the party was if we destroy the tear then that would flood the city, bring back the 'demon fish', and then we'd just teleport the heck out of there and let the chips fall were they may.
Perhaps I missed something in the adventure itself, but it really seemed like we were given a choice between destroying the tear, or destroying the Kopru.
There needs to be more foreshadowing/set up/what have you for the fact that destroying the tear will completely eradicate the kopru, and more importantly, prevent them from ever returning to start things up again. The other perk is that the demon fish take such a long term perspective on things, that they won't be a problem for hundreds if not thousands of years. Still a problem down the line, but not nearly like what is currently happening.
This AP is a lot about "lesser of two evils" choices. Hence the multitude of "paladins R screwed" threads.
The Black Bard wrote: There needs to be more foreshadowing/set up/what have you for the fact that destroying the tear will completely eradicate the kopru, and more importantly, prevent them from ever returning to start things up again. The other perk is that the demon fish take such a long term perspective on things, that they won't be a problem for hundreds if not thousands of years. Still a problem down the line, but not nearly like what is currently happening.
This AP is a lot about "lesser of two evils" choices. Hence the multitude of "paladins R screwed" threads.
Aah, I remember seeing those threads, now I'm beginning to see why. Now that I think about it our party might have made that choice (i.e. the lesser/ greater of two evils) but alas we never learned anything about the 'demon fish' while in the lightless depths, so we could only assume that they'd be starting up where they left off thousands of years ago . . . and the 'ghost' failed to make a very compelling argument. I mean he never adequately explained how a ghost was going to know about a magical item built and deployed thousands of years before he was born, dedicated to an obscure surface deity he'd likely never heard of, was in a city he's never seen. Quite frankly I don't see the Kopru as the blabbering type.
Now had we learned something about the aboleths or if we had actually been able to communicate with one (hint to anyone planing to run this campaign in the future) we might have made different choices.
One question still bothers me though: How would the PCs know that Golismorga wouldn't immediately start flooding once the tear was destroyed? OoC I guessed that there'd be time, but how was my character supposed to know in character?
I can say that my players thought similarly, and were of the mind that they had to protect the tear. It took a great deal of shoehorning that I wasn't proud of to convince them that it was a necessary sacrifice. I think a more plausible reason for the tear's destruction would've benefited this adventure greatly.
When I pictured it dramatically I didn't picture the water slowly rising in the other areas, but rather a sea of water suddenly rushing through, smashing the living creatures and structures. In Golgismorga itself I pictured rumblings and quakings, things collapsing if they were frail and shivering if they were not. The kopru sentries and troglodytes in fear of ancient prophecy rushing about madly and distracted as the pcs advance on the pyramid. However I also don't feel that it's necessary to have it and the game write up doesn't say so; it just has it as a sort of evil plan that might be of immediate benefit to the pcs.
I appreciate points like this. Actual player experiences with published adventures serve as good pointers for the things to watch out for when/if my players get to that same point.
I've no answers to the problem of why the PCs would do it, but I'll be sure to look closely at it to provide them with one when the time comes.
Thanks for the heads-up.
Fletch wrote: I appreciate points like this. Actual player experiences with published adventures serve as good pointers for the things to watch out for when/if my players get to that same point.
No problem Fletch, I'm a DM as well, and truth be told that's my preferred role. So I completely understand the value of these discussions. Heavens knows I look through the AoWs threads before I prepare each chapter.
I love being a player though, and I love getting immersed in a role and a story, but the plot to this adventure seemed to have some minor flaws from my point of view. I knew the way the adventure wanted us to go, that wasn't hard to figure out, but from a player's prospective it honestly didn't make much sense. I started this thread to see if I had missed something in the story!
I think if I were to run this particular adventure I'd have made better use of the 'ghost' scene. I like the Black Bard's points and it seems to me that if the players don't have ranks in dungeonering this is the best place to answer a number of questions. I don't think such questions should be answered by a ghost though . . . at the time I was extremely suspicious, and afterwards I couldn't quite understand what the 'ghost' had hoped to accomplish by lying to us. Even if we were the most gullible party in the history of D&D even the 'ghost' should have realized that there was certain information that he simply shouldn't have been able to impart using the ghost guise.
Guy Humual wrote: Even if we were the most gullible party in the history of D&D even the 'ghost' should have realized that there was certain information that he simply shouldn't have been able to impart using the ghost guise. I don't think it's quite that far-fetched. Although there's no point where it's spelled out as much as it should be, troglogytes are an ancient race on the IoD too. This ghost could've been around for a long time and gleaned a lot of stuff about what was going on. Look at good ol' Alastor Land. He'd been dead roughly 30 minutes and was able to impart all sorts of cosmic knowledge onto the party.
In reality, though, that room is pretty open ended. I just re-read it and it seems like there was a lot of expectation on crafting the abolith's speech to match the PCs. It sounds like that was a miss for your party.
Still, it's kind of hard for me to think of any argument anybody could use on my players to get them to think that there is no other option. Like you said, an evil fish monster is suggesting you flood his caves to get rid of other evil fish monsters. Where's the win for the party?
In the end, maybe I'll just skip that whole part and just declare that there aren't that many kopru in Golismorga to start with and that the ones listed at the pyramid are it, flooding or no flooding.
While we're on the topic, though, what did you do with the petrified aboleth that the mongrel man took you to? I'm vague on what *its* purpose is.
Fletch wrote:
While we're on the topic, though, what did you do with the petrified aboleth that the mongrel man took you to? I'm vague on what *its* purpose is.
Well assuming your PCs actually meet with the mongrel men (and there's no guarantee that they will) I'm thinking this a chance for a dungeonering skill check. The PCs should never had come across an aboleth before this point but here the PCs are directly introduced to a rock which proves to be a slumbering monster. Our group had no one with dungeonering at this point so at it's basic level it merely served as a warning for us: these monsters cannot be killed by time and the only thing keeping them at bay is the tear.
Now that I think about it, I might have have been more willing to destroy the tear without this meeting. I'd say that if the PCs know about the aboleths (or even just 'demon fish') I think I'd run the 'ghost' encounter completely differently.
- I like your points about the ghost BTW . . . I think my DM had our guide call him grandfather and I'm sure that's where I got my assumed age of the ghost from.
The big problem with "lesser of two evils" plots is that unless the PCs feel they actually fully understand each of the respective evils, they will often refuse to take the perceived lesser choice out of (often well founded) suspicion that it will come back to haunt them.
Unfortunately, if the PCs are not knowledge skill heavy, or having bad dice days on checks, they will often lack the info they require to make such a choice. In my games, I always consider what taking 10 on a knowledge check could get them, especially if outside of combat. This can be supremely helpful for a DM who knows that a little more info could change the decision. Also consider intel checks to "put 2 and 2 together" if they dont seem to be getting it.
A character is more than just a disjointed collection of abilities, skills, and stats. An Int 18 character of level 10+ with max ranks in dungeoneering, arcana, and spellcraft, should be more than capable of sitting down for five minutes in front of the tear, considering what they've seen, and coming up with about 80% of what the adventure background gives. Add max ranks of history, and you could bump that to 95 or even 100%.
Such a character could determined with knowledge arcana or spellcraft (isnt the DC to understand a "unique magical event" only 30?) that while breaking the tear is now possible, the magic in it are still incredibly strong, and will linger for some time before completely failing. Like how a house near the colapsing point will creak and groan and such, but not actually fall.
Another justification I used in my game was a dugeoneering check (taken 10 on) to recal that the majority of tunnels passed by on the journey were sloping down, and the PC's tunnel exit to Golismorga was higher than the rest. Combined with an knowledge geography check and an int check (again, all taking 10, sometimes with aid anothers from other characters) they figured out that the water was more likely to come from below than above, despite the depth, and even what came from above would be vastly less at first (they had already recovered potions of fly from the kopru, so they felt secure in using those to fly above any water that was coming down the tunnels).
Summary: Find in-game ways to feed your PCs the info they need, especially if they seem a little sub-par on knowledge skills. If they actually are ignoring knowledge skills, make them pony up for it, just the same as if they ignored casting death ward before going into a necropolis. Have a sage back at farshore comment on what might have happened otherwise, and let them rue taking the harder way.
The Black Bard wrote: The big problem with "lesser of two evils" plots is that unless the PCs feel they actually fully understand each of the respective evils, they will often refuse to take the perceived lesser choice out of (often well founded) suspicion that it will come back to haunt them.
Another justification I used in my game was a dugeoneering check (taken 10 on) to recal that the majority of tunnels passed by on the journey were sloping down, and the PC's tunnel exit to Golismorga was higher than the rest. Combined with an knowledge geography check and an int check (again, all taking 10, sometimes with aid anothers from other characters) they figured out that the water was more likely to come from below than above, despite the depth, and even what came from...
Well said. I agree completely. Too bad dungeonering wasn't one of Tristan's skills (she's got knowledge: planes, magic, architecture, nobility, geography, history as well as craft alchemy and profession sailor), and too bad there was no indication that dungeonering would be needed until this adventure. Tristan has one rank in it now . . . not that it's done her much good.
This adventure path seems pretty heavy on skill use (which is a good thing IMO) but for knowing what skills might be needed before they're needed might be useful. Perhaps a bit more foreshadowing? Maybe a NPC from Farshore has ranks in dungeonering? I'm not sure . . . just throwing out ideas.
As a side note on what happens when the tear is destroyed...
If I remember correctly (I don't have my magazines in front of me), the cerrulian curtain is several days if not more than a weeks journey from Golismorga itself. So even if the tear is destroyed, the water will take time to flow into Golismorga from the start point at the curtain. This gives the PC's ample time (for my group it took 2 days in game) to assault the temple, finish up, and teleport out. I made it clear that the Aboleths were very spread out, and in the short term not much of a threat to Farshore or the Isle. I didn't have any real problems with the plot in this one. Perhaps I misinterpreted how long the water would take to fill Golismorga in that it wouldn't take that long to rush in from the cerullian curtain?
Since you haven't finished the adventure yet, I won't say anything further but I hope this helps.
Here's a thought I just had. What if the focus of destroying the tear was directed not towards killing the kopru but as a means of plugging access the Bile of the Earth (or whatever it's called).
If given enough intro, the Bile would be a big target for the PCs. It's basically the blood of Cthulhu, what player wouldn't flood an underground cave if it destroyed the source of that?
If the "ghost" said something like "When Tlaloc's Tear pushed out the water, it aloud the Bile to bubble to the surface where the kopru could access it."
Who knows, depending on the DM, it might even be true...
Fletch wrote: Here's a thought I just had. What if the focus of destroying the tear was directed not towards killing the kopru but as a means of plugging access the Bile of the Earth (or whatever it's called).
If given enough intro, the Bile would be a big target for the PCs. It's basically the blood of Cthulhu, what player wouldn't flood an underground cave if it destroyed the source of that?
If the "ghost" said something like "When Tlaloc's Tear pushed out the water, it aloud the Bile to bubble to the surface where the kopru could access it."
Who knows, depending on the DM, it might even be true...
I like it! If it's true so much the better. Good thinking Fletch.
Oh and good point Brent! I guess I just pictured the path down as long and winding, so I guess that Tristan wouldn't have had any idea how far they were from the certain . . . not that it really mattered, Tristan and Kale were intent on destroying the Kopru forces anyways, and were happy to avoid destroying the tear.
Fletch wrote: If the "ghost" said something like "When Tlaloc's Tear pushed out the water, it aloud the Bile to bubble to the surface where the kopru could access it." Don't the PCs just destory the tear and leave then?
There's two problems in my mind:
1) Aboleths are pretty darn evil. PCs would need a very, very compelling reason to help them. My cleric of the good-sea-goddess is never gonna go for it.
2) How exactly does "slow motion flooding" of the caves cause the kopru to run off? It's not very clear how destroying the tear helps the PCs.
(1) is fairly easy to solve. Swap the aboleth with something less evil.
For (2), what if the tear was a two-stage bomb - a "good" savage pearl. First stage pushed out the water, second part was an explosion destroying evil creatures. But only the first part went off. Whacking the tear sets off the stage two.
Or maybe taking it from a different angle, Golismorga is a holy place for evil. Evil creatures here get some sort of bonus. The tear pushed out the water and suppressed this bonus. An attack force was then supposed to sweep in and destroy the kopru long ago, but that didn't happen (the "ghost" could be this attacking force). Over the years, the kopru learned how to "shield" the tear so that they can get their bonus back. Destroying the shield takes away the bonus making it easier for the PCs to attack.
DMFTodd wrote: Fletch wrote: If the "ghost" said something like "When Tlaloc's Tear pushed out the water, it aloud the Bile to bubble to the surface where the kopru could access it." Don't the PCs just destory the tear and leave then? Hmmm, again I'm not entirely sure. This goes back to my original destroy the tear or destroy the kopru problem.
Also it begs the question as to why the PCs want to go into the ziggarut in the first place? I suspect that the PCs would be curious to know how the pearls are being made - Plus they'd likely want to deal with any possible Kopru leaders. Perhaps they hope to find some kind of master plan or something . . . I know that's what motivated our PCs (that and we have no love of kopru).
DMFTodd wrote: There's two problems in my mind:
1) Aboleths are pretty darn evil. PCs would need a very, very compelling reason to help them. My cleric of the good-sea-goddess is never gonna go for it.
2) How exactly does "slow motion flooding" of the caves cause the kopru to run off? It's not very clear how destroying the tear helps the PCs.
(1) is fairly easy to solve. Swap the aboleth with something less evil.
For (2), what if the tear was a two-stage bomb - a "good" savage pearl. First stage pushed out the water, second part was an explosion destroying evil creatures. But only the first part went off. Whacking the tear sets off the stage two.
Or maybe taking it from a different angle, Golismorga is a holy place for evil. Evil creatures here get some sort of bonus. The tear pushed out the water and suppressed this bonus. An attack force was then supposed to sweep in and destroy the kopru long ago, but that didn't happen (the "ghost" could be this attacking force). Over the years, the kopru learned how to "shield" the tear so that they can get their bonus back. Destroying the shield takes away the bonus making it easier for the PCs to attack.
Interesting ideas, but I do like the idea of aboleths, and who else would build such a fantastically horrid city? Perhaps it might be easier to re-tool the philosophy or psychology of the alien race.
You're second idea is very neat though. It gives the PCs a wonderful reason to destroy the tear (and deal with the encounters associated with that). My only question is what happens to evil characters or even good characters caught in this blast? If it just destroys aboleths or something that would seem sort of cheezy to me . . . I'd want something that might pose some danger to PCs as well.
>> Interesting ideas, but I do like the idea of aboleths, and who else would build such a fantastically horrid city?
It could have still been built by aboleths, just don't have the returning water cure them.
>> You're second idea is very neat though. It gives the PCs a wonderful reason to destroy the tear (and deal with the encounters associated with that). My only question is what happens to evil characters or even good characters caught in this blast?
It's a Slay Living that only effects evil creatures. They get a save though and the ones that manage the save.. are the ones at the ziggurat. Or the zigguraut offers some protection.
I'm liking my second idea better though, rather than the tear killing evil creatures, it takes away their boost. So fleshing that out:
1) Golismorga, really evil place. All evil creatures get Protection from Good, maximized spells, or other nasty things making a direct attack very difficult.
2) The plan long ago was to drop the tear, forcing out the water, and suppressing the evil aura. An army was supposed to swoop in and deal with the kopru but that didn't happen - the good army was betrayed by their general.
3) Over time, the kopru "shielded" the tear so they got their evil aura back.
4) The "ghost" in the adventure is a good general slain by the betrayer. He wants the tear re-activated and the kopru dealt with.
5) The mongrelmen are the cursed descendants of that good army.
DMFTodd wrote:
4) The "ghost" in the adventure is a good general slain by the betrayer. He wants the tear re-activated and the kopru dealt with.
5) The mongrelmen are the cursed descendants of that good army.
These two ideas I'd like to expand on. I kinda like the idea behind the false ghost, but including a real ghost, or some other connection to the ancient Olmans, would be useful for explaining the true purpose of the Tear. I think this would only benefit the adventure, especially if your changing the nature of the tear (as an aboleth or 'ghost' couldn't possible know what the tear actually does). If you didn't want two ghosts in the adventure simply add Olman carvings somewhere detailing the story in hieroglyphs (if the PCs don't speak ancient Olman).
As for the mongrelmen being the decedents of Olmans, personally I don't like the idea of mongrelmen being a 'cursed' race, but I think that having some of their ancestors being Olman is a good idea. Perhaps after the mysterious cataclysm that destroyed the ancient Olman civilization some of the ancient Olmans were driven underground. This would allow the mongrelmen to have knowledge of both the aboleths and Olmen. This would make the encounter with the mongrelmen far more valuble.
This thread really has some great ideas. I almost wish that I was DMing it myself.
some helpful experiences from our run of "LD"
For one, there is the very dangerous brain collector right on top of the pearl, who for my group caused a (permanent) PC and cohort death, as well as an immediate ignominous retreat to Farshore. That thing is very dangerous, and I would believe it will munch through quite a number of groups if played to the hilt.
Hence, leaving Tlaloc's Tear well enough alone might become even more attractive because of that monstrosity.
Second - the physics involved. Golismorga lies 10000' below sea level ( 3 km, or roughly 2 miles), with the water kept back only by the cerulean curtain...... While I am not a physics guy, Finn, one of my players just looked at me and said "no way", because the water pressure at that depth is quite enough to crumble titanium-hulled russian submarines and anything human built besides a very few dedicated craft. If the Cerulean Curtain failed - there would be an instant massive increase in athmospheric pressure inside the chamber, followed by high speed (Finn calculated something around 80 + mph walls of onrushing water - basically solid walls at enormous speed - don't ask me for the math and formulas, I simply trust his engineering degrees ) jets of water ramming down the access tunnels. Crushing everything in their way, digging new tunnels and cracking open seams, gorges and ventilation shafts...... sheer and utter destruction.
And the players are supposed to trigger this while they are smack in the middle ? Sure.....
Yes, this is a fantasy RPG, but one cannot really ever turn "off" player knowledge at the table. For one it ruins supension of disbelief at the table if basic laws of nature stop working on a large scale without a very good reason, and second players just start walking far more carefully if their "meatworld" part of the mind, knows just how dangerous the environment has become....
In the end though, that is precisely why they destroyed the Tear (besides a stubborn wish for revenge against the Brain-Collector and the thing it protected ) - calculating that the impact of the returning water would cause enough seismic stress to collapse the cavern and bury everything, Aboleths, Kopru, the Ziggurat and the whole setup.
Smashed the tear and teleported out (after having killed the Bilwretch & company beforehand ) - the next few days were followed by tremors and local earthquakes throughout the Isle from the collapsing tunnels, and I added some structural damage from geysier eruption to Tanaclan
vikingson wrote:
Second - the physics involved. Golismorga lies 10000' below sea level ( 3 km, or roughly 2 miles), with the water kept back only by the cerulean curtain...... While I am not a physics guy, Finn, one of my players just looked at me and said "no way", because the water pressure at that depth is quite enough to crumble titanium-hulled russian submarines and anything human built besides a very few dedicated craft. If the Cerulean Curtain failed - there would be an instant massive increase in athmospheric pressure inside the chamber, followed by high speed (Finn calculated something around 80 + mph walls of onrushing water - basically solid walls at enormous speed - don't ask me for the math and formulas, I simply trust his engineering degrees ) jets of water ramming down the access tunnels. Crushing everything in their way, digging new tunnels and cracking open seams, gorges and ventilation shafts...... sheer and utter destruction.
Playing through Lightless Depths now and perusing the board for ideas when I came across this statement.
I realize few people are going to read this reply more than eight years later, but while I trust Finn's calculations he made some inherent assumptions about how the water was going to get in.
If the water entry points are two miles below sea level, then yes the water rushing through those tunnels would be very high speed and tremendous pressure. But most of the entry points shown on page 35 are considerably higher elevation than that, and thus those tunnels won't see as much water pressure and speed. Those which have the highest water pressure are below Golismorga and will be pushing against gravity and be flooding the city from below...they won't be obstructing the PCs who have to ascend the tunnels to get out.
Recent threads in Savage Tide Adventure Path
|
