I suspect that we may make this plot synopsis available as a free PDF to check out as well...
Despite the title of the thread, I'd like to open this up to discussion. I'm a current subscriber and will receive the plot synopsis in PF6. I have no need for a free plot synopsis.
I can understand that if someone who subscribes once PF7 comes out and doesn't have PF6 would want to receive a copy of this synopsis.
However, I'm concerned that if it's free for anyone to download then potential players will read the synopsis. I'm not sure how big the spoilers are, but if players read a four page synopsis for other APs I think it could significantly change their view of the campaign.
It sounds like Paizo hasn't made a decision yet, so I'd like to give feedback now.
I would think, especially from Paizo's perspective, the increased sales potential of advertising the AP this fashion would outweigh the occasional player "previewing" the adventure via the blog or wherever it's posted.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I know of several people who chose not to run the Savage Tide adventure path because too many people had spoiled it by reading the issue-by-issue details in DUNGEON magazine the previous month.
One of the best consequences of Pathfinder being $20 instead of $7, is that fewer potential players are idly buying an issue just to read through the adventure.
If you want a four-page CotCT teaser, is there any way to write one without spoiling the entire adventure? Maybe a couple of sample encounters from different chapters?
I can imagine that if I weren't a subscriber, being able to read this sort of synopsis would be essential to determining if I wanted to become a subscriber as a new path started. So I think that posting this as a download is a very good idea.
If there were a way to create a non-spoiler preview instead/also, that would be even better. Something like that would be much more useful for a group to read, and decide if they want to buy and play through the path.
For example, for Rise of the Runelords, it wouldn't explain the full metaplot, but it could mention specific towns/cities that will be detailed, and mention a couple of key sites and critters of interest in vague terms ("on the way, the PCs will explore a haunted house, rescue a town from a flash flood, and learn far more than they want to know about Golarion's goblins and ogres"). It could also give some info about the general themes of the adventure path ("discover ancient secrets of the Runelords, powerful specialist wizards from Golarion's mostly-forgotten past") and maybe, or maybe not, the intended mood that the path tries to evoke.
Unfortunately, this kind of preview requires that the path be fairly fully detailed before the write-up can be created (the synopsis is pretty much the basics given to the writers; knowing which elements those writers actually end up fleshing out, or what mood they go for, might be part of the directions to the writers, but it might not). I believe this kind of pre-detailing was the norm by the time of the Savage Tide path, and was not really possible, given schedule constraints, for the RotRL path. I'm not sure if it's possible now for the next path?
Maybe the synopsis could come with a cheap module? Like if you buy the 5-pack print copy of the player's guide you get the synopsis in pdf? Or if you buy the Harrow Deck? Or if you make any subscription you get the synopsis for free?
OR you make the AP fun with spoilers. Having a 'slow reveal' is pointless if you're going to give spoilers away for free. If the endgame is known upfront, and the fun of the AP isn't figuring it out, then I wouldn't have as big of a problem with revealing a plot synopsis.
For example, in PF2, any player who doesn't know it's Aldern Foxglove the second they see "Your Lordship" is clueless. Yet the adventure assumes the players are clueless and offers several red herring investigations. It even says that it should be a 'cool revelation' when they figure out it's Aldern. In this case, the solution is simple: change the opening note.
However, in an entire AP that assumes the players are clueless, I would say it's very difficult to change things around if Paizo gives players the clues as well as the plot from day one.
This is always going to be a problem when running a published adventure. If you have a player who wants to spoil the story for himself, it is not hard to do so. All he has to do is look at this messageboard.
I think publishing the synopsis is a good idea. Your players should know better than to go looking through a synopsis of the game they are playing.
Your players should know better than to go looking through a synopsis of the game they are playing.
Potential DMs might read it and pass on it initially, then find themselves in games where the DM is going to run it. It's not always the player's fault. If it's free and interesting, people are going to download and read it.
Messageboards, on the other hand, require someone to wade through to find substantial spoilers. A 4 page outline of the plot is much easier to obtain and thus more tempting to potential players.
What manner of player would do such a thing?
A: A very foolish one!
I once ran "The Sunless Citadel" for a noob group, and one of the players started the second session doing something very unexpected and out of character. I knew immediately that the fledging whelp had read the module betwixt sessions. He was quite dismayed to find the rest of the adventure did not go "his way," and that the entire lower level was no structured as he had remembered.
A savvy DM is the answer to all gaming problems. Use your imagination! Modules are merely skeletons--it is up to YOU to provide the flesh and pretty finery required to make them live, breathe, and "wow" your players!
Creative Director
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If we post the synopsis... we'd absolutely cloak it in spoiler text, but worries that players might spoil the adventure by reading it are insignificant when weighed against getting the plot information out there for prospective GMs to read, really. A player who wants to spoil an adventure like that can just as easily do so by reading these boards or looking at a copy of Pathfinder.
Again, it won't be something that you can "accidentally" read and "accidentally" spoil yourself about; if we post it, it'll be blatantly obvious what it is before you stumble into the meat of it.
And as for the worry of potential GMs reading it and passing and then later playing... that's just one of the perils of being a GM, really. I have to think that I'm not the only GM out there who's read a LOT of adventures over the years only to have his own GM use some of them in the campaign. Heck; I'm playing Age of Worms right now, and I think I probably know that campaign BETTER than my GM. Fortunately, Erik is a master at changing things here and there, and I've had a lot of practice keeping player knowledge and character knowledge separate; that last skill is a good one for any GM to practice, actually...
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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A savvy DM is the answer to all gaming problems. Use your imagination! Modules are merely skeletons--it is up to YOU to provide the flesh and pretty finery required to make them live, breathe, and "wow" your players!
(laughs) Well, yes, but there's a difference between changing half of a dungeon around, and re-writing an entire five-and-a-half books of campaign. At that point, you have to ask yourself what you're paying for.
As a response to earlier posters, I'd like to see a synopsis of the entire adventure path(TM) myself, but not as a free download, and not as part of the Pathfinder #6, because the person who needs PF 6 --the DM for RotRL-- is not necessarily the person who needs to read the synopsis for the next AP. I'd like to see those four pages in Pathfinder #7.
If we post the synopsis... we'd absolutely cloak it in spoiler text, but worries that players might spoil the adventure by reading it are insignificant when weighed against getting the plot information out there for prospective GMs to read, really.
So is this decision already made James? Honestly, are sales so poor that you need to do this?
It's like a trailer that gives away too much. The back cover text should be enough, IMO. Or the Player's Guide. Or perhaps bundling it in with something else. There are several options. As a subscriber, releasing this for free is only a negative thing.
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CEO
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As a response to earlier posters, I'd like to see a synopsis of the entire adventure path(TM) myself, but not as a free download, and not as part of the Pathfinder #6, because the person who needs PF 6 --the DM for RotRL-- is not necessarily the person who needs to read the synopsis for the next AP. I'd like to see those four pages in Pathfinder #7.
Well, it is too late for that, since Pathfinder #6 is already printed (we got a preview copy in our hands the other day) and the preview of the second Pathfinder AP is in there. :)
-Lisa
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Creative Director
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So is this decision already made James? Honestly, are sales so poor that you need to do this?
It's like a trailer that gives away too much. The back cover text should be enough, IMO. Or the Player's Guide. Or perhaps bundling it in with something else. There are several options. As a subscriber, releasing this for free is only a negative thing.
The decision to post the outline online has NOT been made. To my knowledge, my mention of it earlier was the first time anyone mused about the possibility at all. Sales of Pathfinder are quite strong, but it's bad business sense to wait until the sales become poor to do what you can to pump up the next adventure path.
And yeah; the preview in #6 is already at the printer. It's at the back, and it doesn't pretend to be anything but a spoiler-filled preview, and it even SAYS spoilers are coming in the text. If it turns out to have been a bad idea, we won't do the same for Second Darkness exactly. Posting a full plot outline in the first volume of an adventure path might be the way to go. We'll find out once PF6 is out, I guess!
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I agree most DM's should know how to keep their Metagaming to a minimum. Besides another DM is gonna see everything in the adventure completely differently than you and it'll be a game you wouldn't expect.
I for one am already on board for all the Pathfinders (until they run 4E then ????) but if I weren't I'd like to see a glimpse of what I might buy.
Just to give my view. I would have liked to know more about RotR before I started GM it.
A 4 page preview of the following AP in the last issue of the current AP sounds like a very good idea to me.
Regarding a free version. My players are mature enough to not go read these kind of things, so I have no problem with this. If it will boost sales, it might result in even better products, which is a win for me. So go ahead.
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A savvy DM is the answer to all gaming problems. Use your imagination! Modules are merely skeletons--it is up to YOU to provide the flesh and pretty finery required to make them live, breathe, and "wow" your players!(laughs) Well, yes, but there's a difference between changing half of a dungeon around, and re-writing an entire five-and-a-half books of campaign. At that point, you have to ask yourself what you're paying for.
its not like the synopsis will have full dungeon layouts. Look at the synopsis of RotRL in PF1 or the STAP one in the dungeon before it started. both of those have had changes (HTBM changed a lot from what i remember) yes it can give away a little of the plot- but so do the art on the front/back of the book (even more so what you can't say "Oh thats from one of the other adventures, not the STAP one")
personally - I don't read the previews all that much - I might glance through them, but thats it and yes, I have one PC who may read them to see if he wants to DM some of the AP, but he is mature enough not to let it affect his in character decisions
My crew is actually pretty rabid about not wanting to read spoilers. One of them is a subscriber (he's been a long time Paizo subscriber) and won't read his own books, till I vett a section of a book for him.
I think this is an individual player problem / worry than something that has to be handled across the board with a company wide decision. Most mature players have enough presence of mind not to cheat, otherwise the game will be flat out boring. The temptation to cheat usually stems from not trusting the GM to be fair; address that and I think you'll find people don't have as much cause to peek.
Anyway, subjectively, I want the preview. That's my vote.
So is this decision already made James? Honestly, are sales so poor that you need to do this?
There was a temptation to same something snarky in response to this, but I stopped and waited a day, and decided I'm going to pass on doing that. The world has enough fanbois.
I do think your concern could have been re-emphasized with more tact, at the risk of being hypocritical.
A player who wants to cheat by reading about the adventure, will find ways to do that. Using published adventures you always run that risk.
I'd like to echo the sentiment that my players won't cheat by downloading advertising that contains spoilers. I think that Paizo should do what it needs to do to maximize sales.
I can trust my players not to cheat. I say, post the synopsis, because it will help get new subscribers to say 'Hey, I wanna run that!'
I can trust my players not to cheat. I say, post the synopsis, because it will help get new subscribers to say 'Hey, I wanna run that!'
Heck, none of my players even read this website. And I'm one who does not subscribe and would definitely be interested in a plot synopsis.
Just bought PF#1, BTW, from my FLGS. It's good (what I've read so far), but I'm still not sold on the whole "seven sins" deal (a little too real-worldy for me - I like my fantasy and little less connected to this world). Reading the synopsis of AP #2 would definitely let me know whether to get on board or not.
Greg
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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As a DM, I think it's absolutely essential that I see a plot synopsis before I buy an adventure. I always try to be informed about an adventure's contents before I buy, because I can't afford to pay for an adventure which won't fit my group's play style, or isn't appealing to me.
Players who want to spoil the adventure will have no trouble doing so, whether by reading these boards, leafing through a module at a FLGS, or downloading synopses here. I think it's more important to tell potential DMs what the adventure contains; they're the ones who will be buying the books, after all.
Well, that's my 2¢. Happy gaming!
As a GM, I wouldn't even consider committing myself to buying or running a multi-volume campaign without a pretty damn firm idea of how it was going to pan out down the track. Six volumes of Pathfinder for RotRL (or 12 of Dungeon for STAP for that matter) aren't cheap, and I'd be pretty damn annoyed if I payed for all that and then realised after it arrived that it wasn't what I was looking for. A campaign is a pretty big investment of time and money, after all.
Of course, posting a synopsis has its own hazards - APs don't always stick to the original plan as the details get nailed down by the individual writers, and they can sucker you into committing too early. I got a completely wrong impression about the last couple of adventures of STAP from the Dungeon synopsis, for instance, but I started the campaign before publication was complete regardless - and then 148-150 came out and now I'm stuck having to basically rewrite all the parts I'm not happy with. But that's an occupation hazard of the GM business I suppose...
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yes it can give away a little of the plot- but so do the art on the front/back of the book (even more so what you can't say "Oh thats from one of the other adventures, not the STAP one")
I actually print up the PDFs to DM the adventures from (and all the supplemental material) in a notebook. The Players have not seen the covers of any of the books until the adventure is over and I put the cover in the front of my notebook. I really do not want to let them see the cover to upcoming adventures to even get that much of a hint.
Especially PF4.. I want it to be a surprise when they get there.We start PF3 this Saturday. I can't wait...
Given that quite a few of us are running Pathfinder as it comes out, I'd say that any information about what's coming up is worth its weight in gold! I keep finding myself saying "If only I had known...." when I read a later volume and find hooks I could have used during an earlier adventure. We're thinking of sitting on Crimson Throne and not playing it until we have it all, but that's a long wait.
If I don't want my player to read it, I can just ask him not to. (Otherwise he probably will; he doesn't care about spoilers. He's very good about not using the information, so I don't frequently don't mind; but some things just sparkle more for me if he doesn't know in advance.)
If my players were routinely cheating by pre-viewing the adventures, I'd wonder whether I was running adventures that were consistently too hard for their enjoyment. Most of the cheating outbreaks I've seen among adult players have traced back to a series of too-hard scenarios. I know a group that dice-cheated their way through SCAP, for example, and having played it myself I now understand why they did it.
Mary
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CEO
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Reading the synopsis of AP #2 would definitely let me know whether to get on board or not.
Greg:
You are in luck! In the sidebars of Pathfinder #1 that you already own is the plot synopsis's for the remaining 5 volumes in the adventure path. So if you read those, you should have a good idea if it is for you!
-Lisa
I have no problem with the free synopsis at all. If it helps selling more Pathfinder, it's okay I think.
As for people reading them:
Some read it because they think about running it as a DM but later find themselves in the role of players. That's unfortunate, I'd say, but naught's perfect. I think the mature ones will get over having meta-game knowledge, and might even forget the stuff. It doesn't hurt to tell the DM that he did read it but doesn't intend to use the knowledge.
Other read the spoilers because they want metagame knowledge. In that case, it doesn't really matter how the synopsis is presented, because if they want, they can get the spoilers: Reading the boards, reading the synopsis in a gaming store, downloading the free synopsis, buying the book that contiains it.
In this case, as soon as the DM gets wind of it, he should talk to the guy, trying to find out whether he can be trusted or whether he'll continue using it to his own advantage. If the DM thinks he can't trust the guy, kill his character and throw him out of the game. Sounds harsh, but he's a cheater, and seems to play to win. In my experience, such people are poison for your game.
We're thinking of sitting on Crimson Throne and not playing it until we have it all, but that's a long wait.
Mary
I have never ran an AP, but if/when I do, I will surely run one that has been completed. Considering you mentioning that the last couple of AP's have ended inconclusively, I wonder why you don't do the same.
Yeah, I'm on the bandwagon with please do publish the synopsis. We're not talking about one module, but instead an entire campaign. I don't know about you, but with my haphazard gaming schedule, that's about a year and a half of gameplay. I have a lot of faith in Paizo, but it's good to know that 'yes, this campaign is something that's going to fit my gaming group well'.
Reading the synopsis of AP #2 would definitely let me know whether to get on board or not.Greg:
You are in luck! In the sidebars of Pathfinder #1 that you already own is the plot synopsis's for the remaining 5 volumes in the adventure path. So if you read those, you should have a good idea if it is for you!
-Lisa
Thanks, Lisa!
I've already read the synopsis, and it does sound interesting, in fact, the summary of #5 actually gave me an idea I may steal for my current campaign. I will pick up #2 eventually (it's perched in my shopping cart, waiting for critical fumble cards and Hangman's Noose to get past "pre-order" stage.)
Whether I actually run this or not is another question. I've got an EL 15 party in Maure Castle now, with AoW, Savage Tide, and something revolving around Exped to Ruins of Greyhawk waiting in the wings. :-)
So right now, it's more about my reading enjoyment than actual game planning. I do like the freshness of Golarion, but I've still got a lot I want to do with my ole Greyhawk before I put it aside.
Greg
Yes - please post the synopsis as soon as possible. It will give me an opportunity to work some character background into the plot. Surely, the issue of players getting their hands on the synopsis is not a big problem. How many players buy the Pathfinder books? If they do, well that is their own funeral. Sorry - a bit harsh I realise but I'm in that kinda abrupt mood...
I have never ran an AP, but if/when I do, I will surely run one that has been completed. Considering you mentioning that the last couple of AP's have ended inconclusively, I wonder why you don't do the same.We're thinking of sitting on Crimson Throne and not playing it until we have it all, but that's a long wait.
Mary
We had all of SCAP and AoW in hand before starting; didn't stop them from ending inconclusively. But we've pretty much reached an agreement that we'll sit on Crimson Throne and not run it until we have at least 2-3 modules, preferably the whole thing. It's just hard to run well when you don't know where you're going. And the advance plot synopses, well, compare the ones printed in Pathfinder #1 to what actually happens in the modules. There are some differences!
Mary
I have never ran an AP, but if/when I do, I will surely run one that has been completed.
Absolutely. We have discovered that we have a far superior experience when the DM has read the entire AP before it even begins. No question at all. We won't even consider starting RotRL (or Crimson Throne, should I decide to get it) until it's entirely completed.