Is the "Points of Light" concept meant to act as 4th edition's assumed world, or is it a campaign in its own right? Can we expect adventures to take place in the "POL" campaign world, or are they meant to be plugged into our own homebrews?
As a DM who has never had any interest in running a homebrew, designed an adventure, or jamming modules into other campaign worlds where they don't really belong, I'd like to know whether or not I'm going to start running a game where I have no idea what the "big picture" is. Its actually kind of an interesting idea, when you think about it... But what's the rationale for why civilization is so isolated in 4th edition?
Is the "Points of Light" concept meant to act as 4th edition's assumed world, or is it a campaign in its own right? Can we expect adventures to take place in the "POL" campaign world, or are they meant to be plugged into our own homebrews?
Frankly, this is the ONE thing about 4E I really do love. RWoT has said that their PoL setting isn't going to be a "setting" in its own right but merely a set of generic terms that you can use in your own homebrew to describe your world. Adventures like Keep in the Shadowfell (rolls eyes) are being written general to work in any world.
I'd like to know whether or not I'm going to start running a game where I have no idea what the "big picture" is. Its actually kind of an interesting idea, when you think about it... But what's the rationale for why civilization is so isolated in 4th edition?
That's the beauty of a homebrew. You can decide why civilization is as such. I believe the "official" in the PHB reason (damn that fluff where it doesn't belong) is that there was a great empire long ago and it fell. And this is the result of that fall. Yes I know the description I gave is general enough to fit just about EVERY homebrew to ever exist and RWoT will probably keep it that way, but ... it just doesn't belong there IMHO.
I believe the idea behind the PoL setting is kind of a return to old Greyhawk in that the "default" world is going to be made up of a bunch of general adventures. So you can explore your world as you create it.
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I would think POL HAS to be a campaign setting. If it is not, it seems like WotC is once again contradicting itself.
From the initial announcement, WotC has pointed out how little "fun" it is for a DM to create a campaign world. If this is true, then it would seem that 4E should come equipped with its own campaign world so the game won't "burden" the DM with having to create his own setting.
I think they are making the world so empty because the existing campaigns have a lot of history and are heavily populated with high level NPC's.
The Forgotten Realms has Waterdeep with a population of a millions iirc and Eberron has Sharn, City of Towers.
It's clear from the info that is being released that they want the PC's to be the powerful forces in the world and that is why I think they are going with the 'Points of Light'. Small towns and willages will not be full of 20th level NPC's.
When I first started playing D&D we used a rotating DM system as we all wanted to play. We started with the Saltmarsh Trilogy and had a different DM for each module. Then we moved to higher level dungeons that were connected only by the characters we played. In effect we were playing a points of light campaign.
D&D is going back to the roots in that respect.
And creating your own campaign world is both fun and hard work. On the plus side, no one can say 'But Elminster wouldn't do that!'
Every NPC is yours and no one but you knows what they would and wouldn't do.
I would think POL HAS to be a campaign setting. ... If this is true, then it would seem that 4E should come equipped with its own campaign world so the game won't "burden" the DM with having to create his own setting.
They are, it's called, The Forgotten Realm. You know the one that is least PoLish currently.
I just realized an accidental pun in my post. No offense to anyone is intended.
I don't know, I really like the Points of Lights concept. I realized that no matter what campaign world I make, there always seems to be a PoL happening in some way, shape, or form. Heck, even Golarion is pretty Points of Light if you ask me, it seems to be the nature of adventuring, the world wouldn't be very fun if every problem was taken care of.
I understand how everyone doesn't like Wizards making an amalgam campaign world of Eberron, FR, and Greyhawk (I don't like it either) but I don't mind them describing the generic world building idea of Points of Light, I think it's kind of a D&D staple.
Here some examples of worlds I built that followed the points of Light concept before I had even heard the term coined:
Deadworld
-A plane that used to be completely devoid of life is now filling with immigrants reaping the benefits of abandoned cities and free land. But what caused the great purge of life in the first place? And are the rumors true? Are the masters of all the old empires destined to return?
The Land of 4/4
-Two peaceful continents float above a world ravaged by monsters. Adventurers are the celebrities that descend to the surface and battle for treasure and reknown only to return to the continents with Bard magic that displays their tales with life-like realism. On the two continents, adventurers are lavished with riches, women, and fame. On the true surface of the world, they are nothing but meat...
The Land of 4/4 (1000 years ago)
-The Elvish nations have made pacts for the promise of true immortality with a darkness that knows no mercy nor rest. With their mastery of these new powers they have brought artificial night to almost the entire world. Only the enigmatic Alchemistia Organization stands against them, powering a floating continent using science-magic, for now unreachable from roiling surface. But the elves want dominion over everything, including this place in the sky...
See? All Points of Light campaigns. I've never actually played anything different in D&D.
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From EN World ...
Rich Baker said:
We're not actually building a world out of the "core" setting. In a sense, the core setting is simply a collection of proper names, artifacts, and legends we expect many generic D&D games to share. This has always been true to some degree; even back in 1st Edition, just about *every* campaign every DM ran assumed that Corellon Larethian put out Gruumsh's eye, that the drow fought the other elves and were driven underground, that Acererak the lich created a Tomb of Horrors somewhere on the planet, or that the Rod of Seven Parts was lying around someplace waiting to be found.
The big new thing in the "fluff" of 4e D&D is that we're not tethering these names and stories to the world of Greyhawk; we've created a new skeleton of linked assumptions (proper names, artifacts, stories) to anchor the fluff of the "implied" setting. Since we're telling a story that tieflings are the descendants of a ruling elite from a human empire that made pacts with devils, we might as well attach a "placeholder" name to it. Some DMs will use the name Bael Turath; other DMs will make up their own infernal empire. But "Bael Turath" looks nice than "[insert your chosen name here]".
Now, for my own part, I favor the idea of sketching a simple map of that setting and thinking up a name for it. But many of my colleagues feel that doing so would simply replicate the Greyhawk phenomenon, and make it harder for DMs who build their own worlds to use the material we're creating. (So far, I've lost that argument; hey, it happens!) The idea is to create just enough flavor to have interesting proper names and links for DMs to pick up and use, without dictating how their worlds have to go together.
All of that is not really relevant to the Forgotten Realms, of course; the Realms is an example of a specific world that is not beholden to core stories, names, or flavor. So there isn't a Bael Turath in Toril's past... but we do suggest that ancient Narfell might have been the place where tieflings first appeared in Faerun.
I think that 4th needs to have an established core setting. I do not believe it should in any way, shape, or form be the Forgotten Realms. (They shouldn't have bastardized the Pantheon either, but that's another thread.) There are going to be new players - first timers either attracted to 4th or too young to have played 3rd - whatever. They aren't going to be able to design a fantastic home-grown campaign on their own right off the bat. It may take years. I don't have a problem with a built-in campaign - but make it generic enough that it can be inserted anywhere, or modified easily. Put in that sample city like in DMG2 (stupid waste that the book was), a little bit of the environs, and move on. It helps new players to have points of reference, and things to look back on. I fondly remember living in Kelvin, thinking about visiting Specularum - etc. The fact that earlier editions relied on Greyhawk didn't stop anyone from creating their own systems. That being said, it needed to be a NEW location - not just borrowing the FR name for the sake of name-dropping.
I think that 4th needs to have an established core setting.
I kinda felt the same way. The biggest concern being that they seem to have problems maintaining worlds or selling enough units to make them happy. I think that with all the changes they have made, it would have been in their best interest. At the very least, sketch out a world that is a smaller and a bit less intimidating. Perhaps they should have taken the approach of not developing a whole world, but rather say 2-3 kingdoms put on a nice map which could be attached to other worlds. This would give starting players good information to get going as well as models on creating similar kingdoms and wilderness they could attach ad continue in order to make it homebrew. A map say maybe 500 miles x 350 or so.
I'm not a 4th edition fan, but Im trying to keep my thinking neutral for the sake of discussion.
I'll go back to Basic on this, which did start very small - had a map with some points you could flesh out - but nothing was really definite. I'm against 4th, but I want to see it be the best it can be - the end goal of all this is to get more people playing - and keep them playing. Points of Light is a neat idea, and it doesn't need the FR to succeed. A lot of cool stuff in 1st ed came from a "core setting" - people like Arneson and Gygax's home campaigns, for example. Just don't make it so much the old players get pushed away and the new people feel they have no where to explore.
I'll go back to Basic on this, which did start very small - had a map with some points you could flesh out - but nothing was really definite. I'm against 4th, but I want to see it be the best it can be - the end goal of all this is to get more people playing - and keep them playing. Points of Light is a neat idea, and it doesn't need the FR to succeed. A lot of cool stuff in 1st ed came from a "core setting" - people like Arneson and Gygax's home campaigns, for example. Just don't make it so much the old players get pushed away and the new people feel they have no where to explore.
I just miss the days when I could buy Greyhawk stuff! Its such a bummer. I understand everyone has different tastes and all, and that's ok. I just miss the days when there weren't so many choices. Wlaking into the store and buying D&D material felt special. That feeling is pretty much gone these days (at least for me).
Me too. I think people just knock it because it's been around before most of the gamers today - and it's "cool" to mock anything that came out before. Iuz was soooo cool.
Me too. I think people just knock it because it's been around before most of the gamers today - and it's "cool" to mock anything that came out before. Iuz was soooo cool.
I totally agree. It's kinda like when you say some phrase which was popular when you were a kid, and your child looks at your crazy or stupid. If it isn't new it isn't any good, so it seems....I always felt that is how latter TSR felt and even more so WOTC.
Well, at least there is a lot of Greyhawk stuff out there that we can still use. It's too bad so many people are just going to gloss over it. I remember working Kelvin and some of the starting regions of Basic into Greyhawk because I felt they "had" to be part of Greyhawk.
memories...
Well, at least there is a lot of Greyhawk stuff out there that we can still use. It's too bad so many people are just going to gloss over it. I remember working Kelvin and some of the starting regions of Basic into Greyhawk because I felt they "had" to be part of Greyhawk.
memories...
I think we should take a moment........
I didn't get to pick up the new Blackmoor yet. One more thing to do instead of switching to 4th. Blackmoor was really cool though, back in the day. I hope the update to 3.5 was as good as I hoped it was.
Kalamar is also great but I have not heard if they plan to go 4E.
Some people from Kenzer hang out on RPG.net and one or two others on ENWorld. The Jolly Roger goes to both. I haven't heard anything about this yet. Come to think of it, I haven't seen any Kenzer people all week.
EDIT:Quotes from the Jolly Blackburn from Kenzer's Forums:
((Regarding companies going 4E)) Source
It'll also take some pressure off the 3.5 market. Hopefully a dozen publishers or so will go chasing 4e. Leaving the others behind to try and eek out a living off those players not upgrading.
I'm kind of glad we'll be going our own direction.
((Regarding other 3rd party companies))
wow. So I was over on Enworld and RPGnet. Pubishers are more upset about the 5,000 dollar buy in than I thought.
I'm sort of glad we weaned ourselves from the d20 teat.
I'd hate to be wrestling for a block on the starting line in this race.
EDIT #2
((Replying to comments)) Source
((Originally Posted by GMWestermeyer
If you speak with somebody like Rich Baker, remember he was part of the team that did this D&D. Sure, he seems to be one of those who helped bring Axis and Alllies to its current glory days. But weighed against that, they killed D&D. ))
That's a bit harsh really.
I think they might end up saving D&D at the end of the day (in terms of appeal/audience).
But you're right in that it may be the death of D&D as "we" know and love it.
At some point we old men have to let go and accept the fact D&D just might belong to new generation.
But don't worry. There's still a place for us -- last I heard those old editions of D&D still play pretty much like they always did.
((emphasis mine, Wow, I never heard an RPG company maker advocate becoming a grognard...))
more to come
Did the hit locations stay or did they pass on that? That was always a love or hate issue.