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I'd like to state my current group that my current group and DM allow readied actions even if we don't know there's an enemy on the opposite side of the door. This has lead to one of our standard breaching tactics. We have a Ranger with a Hand of the Mage and my Monk with Longbow proficiency. He stands back and uses the Hand of the Mage to open the door while I stand there with a Readied action to "shoot anything hostile that comes through".
I know it seems a little odd that he's not using the bow and I'm not the one opening the door, but he has the Hand of the Mage and I'm the only member of the party who hasn't shot a fellow party member, so far(usually I'm the one getting shot by my teammates missing their target, including the Elf wizard, who instead of using his Wand of Magic Missile decides to break out the bow).
I know it seems a little odd that he's not using the bow and I'm not the one opening the door, but he has the Hand of the Mage and I'm the only member of the party who hasn't shot a fellow party member, so far(usually I'm the one getting shot by my teammates missing their target, including the Elf wizard, who instead of using his Wand of Magic Missile decides to break out the bow).
I've always considered Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as must haves for any sort of ranged specialist. Elf wizards, with their racial proficiency with bows, get even more benefit from taking Point Blank Shot at 1st level and Precise Shot at 3rd since they apply to both attacks with bows and missile/ray (ranged touch) spells.
its not a surprise round if you know whats about to happen. I mean the rules are pretty vague to begin with on what constitutes surprise and how to handle it but there is no way something can be a surprise if your waiting for a door to open and have every intention of jumping on anything behind the door. Sure your DM is free to rule it as surprise if it turns out Little Red Riding Hood is behind the door and you were expecting an Ogre with fetid breath but outside of something like that I just don't see how the rules support the idea that the PCs are surprised.This is the core to this argument. If you know they kenku is behind the door, you are aware of him, and you are not surprised (check p137 PHB if we're tossing page #'s around). Plain and simple. And saying "well, you can't see him so you're not aware of him" is ludicrous ... especailly if he's popped out a couple of times already. A DM ruling otherwise is just trying to kill his PCs by deliberately misinterpretting the rules. Poor gamesmanship at best; cheating at worst.
If the DM rules that's the way it works, then he should have no complaints if the PCs start using the same tactics... If the DM objects to the PCs using the same tactics, then it's not fair.
Of course, if the DM does let the PCs use the same tactics, then the game becomes pretty boring.
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Can't ready actions outside of combat.I agree with Jal on that one. That's just silly. I mean, if you KNOW the door's going to pop open?
The way the DM ran it was, since you still might not react quickly enough, we rolled initiative when the door opened. Monster wins: attacks first, and we're flat-footed. We win: we attack first, and the monster is flat-footed. Worked fine; we felt it was fair; the DM felt it was fair; everyone had fun. If that makes it "unofficial," or a "house rule" then so be it.
That is exactly how I would do it, with a bit of a caveat:
Even before the combat begins (before they know the Kenku is going to attack), if the PCs make a listen check (very difficult, of course) they get to act in the surprise round - roll initiative and they might even beat the kenku.
From there, it is essentially your description, Kirth.
In my readied action argument (to illustrate how I would handle this with surprise rounds), say the party readies to attack if the door opens and then they get their action (say they spot the door somehow before the Kenku knows they are there). They move up, the Kenku has a readied action to activate a surprise round. Both sides roll initiative, the winner gets their readied action first, and so forth.
What I just realized, and this is the ironic part, is that essentially a surprise round IS the result of a readied action in the original example: the kenku hears the party approach, readies an action to open the door. When the party arrives, the Kenku takes it's action and the result is a surprise round where the Kenku attacks. So in essence, this encounter structure (which is pretty common) validates my argument as the Kenku has readied an action outside of combat/initiative in order to actually START combat/initiative.
Bold was just to draw attention, not to seem like being forceful.
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its not a surprise round if you know whats about to happen. I mean the rules are pretty vague to begin with on what constitutes surprise and how to handle it but there is no way something can be a surprise if your waiting for a door to open and have every intention of jumping on anything behind the door. Sure your DM is free to rule it as surprise if it turns out Little Red Riding Hood is behind the door and you were expecting an Ogre with fetid breath but outside of something like that I just don't see how the rules support the idea that the PCs are surprised.This is the core to this argument. If you know they kenku is behind the door, you are aware of him, and you are not surprised (check p137 PHB if we're tossing page #'s around). Plain and simple. And saying "well, you can't see him so you're not aware of him" is ludicrous ... especailly if he's popped out a couple of times already. A DM ruling otherwise is just trying to kill his PCs by deliberately misinterpretting the rules. Poor gamesmanship at best; cheating at worst.If the DM rules that's the way it works, then he should have no complaints if the PCs start using the same tactics... If the DM objects to the PCs using the same tactics, then it's not fair.
Of course, if the DM does let the PCs use the same tactics, then the game becomes pretty boring.
Granted, my DM seems to think that every missed attack should hit someone on the pointy side of the arrow, or at least require a Reflex save, but come on, the ranger and I are the only ones who have ever hit our intended targets...
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When did Paizo take over Dungeon?The worst Dungeon mod that stands out to me is 'Demonblade' from issue 97. The premise of that adventure depended so much on the author's own fantasy kindgom that it was nearly useless in any other setting. Also factor in that the adventure was level 16, a level where I'm assuming players have spent an awful lot of time in some campaign setting of their own, and I can't imagine who got any use out of it.
Actually, the history is all fluff that has very little bearing on the adventure. I had no problem running this adventure, as all of that info is largely in the background and doesn't need to be known at all (although it is a really cool backstory).
I've actually ran that one and thought with some tweaking it wasn't too bad.
I cannot really say these are the worst modules ever by any stretch but they've been the worst and most disappointing that I've ever run (my players actually had a blast with Castle Grayhawk thank you very much :P). They weren't all bad by any means, we had some fun and I had one of my most memorable DMing experiences when a small shield wall of cultists got one hell of a surprise when they were charged by a group of angry PC's hauling a flaming canoe. I suppose I should list them though, they're from relatively recent history: The Forgotten Realms Super Module Trilogy: Cormyr, Shadowdale and Anauroch.
I picked them up loving the story behind them and soon found they were poorly designed in many aspects. Poorly edited. Not to mention as the modules went on they practically punished the PC's for daring to play them at all. Hell, they loved the story as well but that quickly got overshadowed in Shadowdale and even moreso in Anauroch and the game quickly stopped being fun and began to be more of a chore for them.
Either way; of all the modules I've run from Undermountain, to Pathfinder and Dungeon adventure paths, and hell, and even including Castle Greyhawk; the Forgotten Realms trilogy has been the most disappointing of them all.
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What i mean is that i think a DM should write his own modules by himself. That's part of the job.
As a DM i wouldn't dare running a game for my players from a magazine or a book.
And as a player i am not interested by a DM who can't write his own adventures.
I think there is a difference between writing adventures and running them.
A good film director can be a terrible script writer and vice versa.
Forgotten Realms fans fared no better with the Sword of the Dales trilogy which basically had the players WATCH the adventure happen around them, and the Marco Volo trilogy which was written (presumably) while heavily medicated.
About ten years ago, the DM at the time wanted to run the "Sword of the Dales" adventure. So, we encounter a bunch of orcs in the woods, and find...
In the very next encounter, the fighter wielding it got a bit too close to the party's evoker's fireball - all the fighter's fault, really - and a failed save or two later...
... the Sword of the Dales was lost!
I guess this saved us from a very bad adventure.
The "Sword of the Dales" and similar adventures were part of this bizarre trend that culminated in my opinion in the adventures written for White Wolf--the trend of "pcs as witnesses".
I think "Adam's Wrath" was mentioned in the OP. It's a really good SETTING--I think if anyone wanted to pick it up to add to a Ravenloft setting it might be fun--but more or less you find yourself as a kind of lesser Frankenstein's Monster aka Flesh Golem being a kind of extra in the story of Frankenstein. Sigh.
The "Sword of the Dales" and similar adventures were part of this bizarre trend that culminated in my opinion in the adventures written for White Wolf--the trend of "pcs as witnesses".
I think "Adam's Wrath" was mentioned in the OP. It's a really good SETTING--I think if anyone wanted to pick it up to add to a Ravenloft setting it might be fun--but more or less you find yourself as a kind of lesser Frankenstein's Monster aka Flesh Golem being a kind of extra in the story of Frankenstein. Sigh.
The only part I remember of that adventure is how everyone was killed at the start by three hags, "revived" by the NPC and then had some wereboar hearts implanted that slowly transformed us into pigs within a week, giving us a time limit for that task.
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Not sure if it's mean mentioned but, the Dragonlance series. Loved the books and then the modules seems like the DM was reading the book to us! Never had so little input as a player on the direction of an adventure (or series thereof) ever. Who knew that a series of books that started as a AD&D game would end up being a bad well D&D game!
S.
Assuming that we include 3PP, World's Largest Dungeon needs a mention. The premises of the adventure are just insane.
** spoiler omitted **
I wish that I could comment on whether I agree with this or not. Part of the way through running the first section of this adventure, all but the first map disappeared. This was several years and a lot of searching ago and I still have no idea where those maps went. I eventually decided to email AEG to try and to purchase the maps from them, aaaaaaand they never responded.. They also didn't respond on my second, third or forth attempt to contact them. Yay, customer service!! That's $100 that I'll never see again.
Not sure if it's mean mentioned but, the Dragonlance series. Loved the books and then the modules seems like the DM was reading the book to us! Never had so little input as a player on the direction of an adventure (or series thereof) ever. Who knew that a series of books that started as a AD&D game would end up being a bad well D&D game!
S.
Yeah, what you said. I think the most annoying with was recurring npcs that would somehow just not end up dead no matter what you did.
I'm not sure how to rank them, but the Dragonlance Modules make up the top slots of any of my "Worst D&D Adventures". (Unless we are allowed to add some of the horrible RPGA stuff for 3.0).
Re-reading some of the old D&D 1e stuff, while it was not as heavy on role playing, I'd love to play them today with PF. Some of them have ROOM for RP, but the rules weren't there yet, so you just ahd to wing it...
But I hates me some Dragonlance sooooo much. (All aboard the Margret Weis Railroad...)
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My least favorite that I have played so far is Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.
At the end of the dungeon you find.......the next dungeon!
I kind of look at Temple of Elemental Evil / Scorge of the Slave Lords / Queen of the Spiders as one of the first APs. It was definately the longest published adventure out there for quite a while (assuming that it actually has been toppled at some point).
"The Speaker in Dreams" and "The Standing Stone" both where utterly terrible. We simply left in the middle of "Speaker" the Dm told us "fine, the town is doomed now" and all of us cheered.
"Stone" was with the same PC's but another DM, we hated it, we would have left again but the stupid railroad setting DID NOT MAKE IT POSSIBLE TO LEAVE AAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH
Both DM's where experienced good DM's so my conclusion is - blame the adventures
Having read through this thread, I have to ask: Did Erik Mona ever get that writer's advice for Castle Greyhawk?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My least favorite that I have played so far is Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.
At the end of the dungeon you find.......the next dungeon!
Eventually I threatened to start casting earthquakes as fast as I could if we didn't get to do something other than slog through caverns, sell the stuff we got in the last cavern, and buy the stuff to help in the next one.
This did lead to a funny point in my gaming career. We get surprised by the blue dragon. So I go to old reliable... Tanglefoot bag. Dragon fails all its saves and is easily toasted by our Paladin, with the final two points of damage coming from the halfling with a sling.
This lead to her one bit of boasting, how she 'killed' the blue dragon.