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I am currently running STAP and just had my first high level death in City of Broken Idols when Khala made a Paladin and Jelly sandwich. Up until this point my character deaths occured at a relatively low level now I have to have a new 15th level character come into the game. I have been pondering the amount of magic that I should allow the new character to have. Does anyone have any guidelines as to the amount of magic items that new high level characters should have.
PS Many Thanks for the online supplement for Dungeon 146!!!!!
Thanks
Knightsyde
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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For me, part of the answer would involve how much of the dead paladin's equipment is still around and usable. If most of it is still good, and would be appropriate for the new character, I'd take that into consideration when giving even more new magical equipment to the PC.
As for the character build itself , I would usually allow the player a free-hand, although maintaining a final veto on my part, if things are either inappropriate or potentially rules abusive. As for equipment, I would limit that and take the player aside prior to the game, have him present me a "wishlist", with an added max gold/item limit and go through that with him/her. "Stuff" then usually gets changed, adapted, modified and even improved if I like the idea or concept. generally, the character will start "poorer" then the others though - simply becaue the new guy could hand-pcik his stuff, while the others had to acquire theirs ingame, with all the difficulties etc. of that.
Existing equipment would definitely be taken into account there.
This usually takes half an hour or an hour ( so, best arrange for it to happen before the normal session ), but for me assures nothing unforward/campaign-beraking enters play, and keeps my control over just what magic items enter my campaign intact (I don't run "take-your-pick magic shops" either ).
Equipment and condition of the same will also heavily depend upon just _how_ the character enters play.
generally, the character will start "poorer" then the others though - simply becaue the new guy could hand-pcik his stuff, while the others had to acquire theirs ingameNote that D&D assumes a certain level of wealth at each level, and this wealth mostly represents items that the player has hand-picked. If the DM's other players have less than 200k gp in gear (even after selling unwanted stuff at 1/2 price and buying stuff they really want), then they are below the expected power level for the adventure.
This isn't made clear enough in the DMG, but wealth levels are an important balance consideration for the game.
As for what the player buys with that wealth: it usually isn't an issue. If they spent most of their wealth on single, expensive item, they are mostly likely being sub-optimal.
Well, I would disagree.
looking at the STAP, the inability or high difficulty for characters to acquire equipment while based in Farshore (yes, it can be done with teleport etc. but it is a time-consuming hassle ) is part of the plot, and according to the authors (IIRC) arranged on purpose. Which means, getting massively enchanted heavy armour can only be done abroad by a group resorting to travelling magics (or featuring an item creator ).
Certain highly effective materials for arms and armour (adamantine, mithril etc. ) are not widely available either, even if you have th enchanter at your beck and call.
Plus, the characters may have invested into equipment proper for the mid-level part of the STAP, and now suddenly realise, that other stuff or power-combination might have been more useful for the final chapters (say an "aberration bane "weapon suddenly becomes less useful then it was around Golismorga ? ).
As an example - one of my group's main tanks is still using the longsword wrested from Vanthus' grasp back in ToD, which has been enchanted (aberrartion-bane and a spell-warding effect - for a hefty 20k of wealth ) further.
Now that they at last realise - SoS's final session is happening next weekend, I guess - that they may have to go to the Abyss and hack through demonic hordes (my players so far have stalwartly refused letting meta-gaming knowledge affect their characters), of course the player wishes he had invested in a cold-iron weapon instead.....
A character entering the campaign straight at 15th level has not gone through that process, and can now equip himself with items optimal/tailored for play at 15th level and above, never having been required to invest in stuff used throughout the campaign prior to this (say, a "ring of water breathing" ) which will see little use over the final chapters 'as written'.
A new character on the other hand might just possibly "incidentally" invest in his equipment based on his previous (player's) experiences...
Plus that in some campaigns buying a straight +5 blade (50k) ingame may not be all that easy/permitted by the GM. Or one having just the proper combination of enchantments on it. Or available in an exotic size, material or whatever... But one usually can finnagle up a story just why the replacement has one.
From my PoV - and that's what my advice is based on - the 'wealth-per-level' rules are a guideline, a measure to judge character wealth by, but are far from a a failsafe yardstick by which all characters are equally well equipped. A GM should look at how optimized the other players' characters are, and take a clue from that.
One thing to watch out for with new characters/new equipment, though, is that they're often tailored rather tightly to the campaign. The original characters were, too some extent, but that was before the game got down to specifics.
Keep an eye on spotlight/effectiveness, so the surviving PCs don't feel overshadowed.
lol, given that a poor soul in a friend's campaign is still playing her beguiler/mindmender/shadow adept in the STAP (at 12th level atm...), and seems to be hard pressed to affect anyone, effectiveness of initial character-concepts is certainly somewhat "fluid" and slanted *grin*
Since you asked - I disagree with the following statement which I find both overly simplifying and generally too imprecise to be put like that
"This isn't made clear enough in the DMG, but wealth levels are an important balance consideration for the game.
As for what the player buys with that wealth: it usually isn't an issue. If they spent most of their wealth on single, expensive item, they are mostly likely being sub-optimal. "
As stated above, I can think of half a dozen scenarios where your thesis would be wrong, partially or in its entirity. There is neither a universal "optimal" characterbuild, nor even a optimal equipment for character XYZ in Situation ABC". and that if only because of differing playing styles
But yes, wealth/equipment overall is an indicative, if not absoute factor
As for non-accessibility of "teleport" - alwell, I have played (the game is on hiatus atm) in a campaign in which the specialist wizard has conjuration as one of his forbidden schools (yes, role-playing reasons ). He also lost illusion, which cost us "Shadow walk"
While the cleric in that campaign is a dwarf, who wouldn't touch "Wind Walk" with a 10' pole unless it was a dire emergency (ok, that cleric would by my character *guilty grin*). And we fare(d) rather well. You could call us the pedestrians of the apocalypse (we don't even have mounts with any degree of regularity) , but trecking around is half the fun of that campaign. Unless we travel by twin plane shift....
A world/campaign/AP without "teleport" happens - and even in the STAP, there are problems and risks from extreme-range jumps to half-forgotten locations unless the characters too precautions several levels ahead (like memorising waypoints for a multi-stage teleport journey during SWW). besides, if the distance between the mainland and the Isle is farther than, say 1500 miles instead of the nominal 900- 1000, the problem becomes even more pronounced and a matter for levels 15+.
Oh, and in no campaign I have ever played/GMed did the characters find 90% or more of the valuables, even less claim, keep and transport them. That may be a question of playing style, though
I suppose I could have added boctaoe after my posts, but I'm unsure what you are arguing. The statements that you quoted are useful and valid *general* observations for D&D (and were intended as such).
Wealth levels are an important balance consideration... not that you *have* to follow them, and not that you *have* consider it, or to consider balance at all. But if balance is a concern, wealth levels will play an important part (whether you make an effort to consider them or not). That's just default D&D (i.e. how it is designed)... but yes, people certainly can and do play otherwise.
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ok, seems we agree - we just phrase our opinions differently =)
I just don't like to to regard the "wealth level" as a balancing absolute - individual item worth etc. will invariably vary, and availability at the time of purchase (GM fiat or simply GP-limit in towns ), roleplaying reasons and other unfathomables (like how do you calculate the market value of large size kopru-behemoth-fitting studded leather armour + 3 ? I mean, who is going to buy this stuff ? ) always come into play.
One thing to watch out for with new characters/new equipment, though, is that they're often tailored rather tightly to the campaign. The original characters were, too some extent, but that was before the game got down to specifics.
Keep an eye on spotlight/effectiveness, so the surviving PCs don't feel overshadowed.
The PHII has a list of items that a character of a certain class of a certain level will have. It just has '+1 armor' so it has a degree of individuality. I have not used it, but it looks pretty good.
lol, given that a poor soul in a friend's campaign is still playing her beguiler/mindmender/shadow adept in the STAP (at 12th level atm...), and seems to be hard pressed to affect anyone, effectiveness of initial character-concepts is certainly somewhat "fluid" and slanted *grin*One thing to watch out for with new characters/new equipment, though, is that they're often tailored rather tightly to the campaign. The original characters were, too some extent, but that was before the game got down to specifics.
Keep an eye on spotlight/effectiveness, so the surviving PCs don't feel overshadowed.
Three classes at level 12? Assuming one of those is a prestige class it is still 3-4 levels below a single class 12 level character. Since many special abilities (and non-core classes have lots of 'specials' :) are more effective at higher levels, she will be hard pressed to compete. Those class level dependent abilities, even though you have a lot of them, are still level dependent (not character level dependent).
back to the OP I think I would consider where the character came from. An Olman on the IoD should be well outfitted to the IoD, and a pirate from Scuttlecove will be well suited to Scuttlecove: arrows of *spoiler omitted* slaying and lots of antidotes to *spoiler omitted* for example.