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New article up at WOTC HERE.
I'd reprint, but it occurs to me that the copyright prohibits distribution or public display or some such language so I'll refrain.
Nothing really new here. Basically "Juicy" feats are rolled in class features whats left are simpler basic things. FOr example, Rapid SHot is most likely moved to "striker" class features and not available for mass consumption as a feat. "Alertness" remains a mass-consumption feat but gets a change to reflect the new mechanics.
copyright prohibits distribution or public display or some such
What does it say about tracking down frassin-funkin' Wiz-O webmasters who can't figure out how not to block access to their free content and throwing a brick at them. What does copyright say about that?
Grrr...
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What does it say about tracking down frassin-funkin' Wiz-O webmasters who can't figure out how not to block access to their free content and throwing a brick at them. What does copyright say about that?
Grrr...
Not very much actually.... But tort law on the other hand...
While its not as much crunch as I'd like to see it does have some useful tidbits.
1. Skills have indeed been slimmed down, Perception instead of listen/spot/(search?).
2. Some formerly prestige class abilities are now feats, like archmages' mastery of shaping for Golden Wyvern Adept. Maybe some core prestige classes have also been eliminated?
3. Lower level feats can remain useful, for instance toughness now scales.
1. Skills have indeed been slimmed down, Perception instead of listen/spot/(search?).2. Some formerly prestige class abilities are now feats, like archmages' mastery of shaping for Golden Wyvern Adept. Maybe some core prestige classes have also been eliminated?
3. Lower level feats can remain useful, for instance toughness now scales.
It also seems some feats will be based on your tier of the game heroic/paragon/epic.
Wow. They completely ruined feats.
Those are some really worthless feats. If those are the shining examples that are supposed to get us hot about 4th edition, we are in trouble. You could totally forget to pick a feat when you level and not even care.
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Those are some really worthless feats.
Can't speak for Alertness or the surprise round one, but I don't think the other two are worthless. When you're sporting that shiny d4 for hit dice a 25% increase in hp for a feat slot is nothing to sneeze at. Having played and DM'd many a blaster, the ability to exclude allies from area spells in exchange for a feat is golden.
I guess they're more attractive to casters in general... One man's trash...
So...basically the new article is a list of feats? Mostly so far all I've heard is examples. Can't actually read the thing because, like always, it won't let me in. Basically they're reworking basic feats, wrapping others into classes. That sort of thing? Was there any theory or exposition given as to thoughts behind what they're doing? Honestly sometimes I think it'd be less of a headache just to swallow my pride and buy the stupid subscription. But then again, it's free and I can't get it to load--who says it would load even if I paid them.
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Since I think the copyright-thing in this instance is bogus (it's copied on ENWorld, it's an advertisement, etc etc) I copy it here:
One of the most useful and popular additions to Dungeons & Dragons that appeared in 3rd Edition was the concept of feats: special bonuses, benefits, or actions that characters could acquire outside their normal class features.
Throughout the lifespan of the edition (and even between the covers of the Player's Handbook), the potency, utility, effect, and coolness of feats have varied widely.
Some feats offer utilitarian but unexciting benefits, while others grant characters entire new options in combat. It's hard to argue with the utility of Alertness, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus, or even (for 1st-level wizards and sorcerers) Toughness, but that same feat slot could purchase Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Spring Attack, or Empower Spell.
When we started talking about feats for 4th Edition, we already knew that we wanted the bulk of a character's powers-the exciting actions he performs in combat-to come from his class. Even character classes that hadn't traditionally offered class-based power options (that is, non-spellcasters) would now acquire these special attacks, defenses, maneuvers, and so on directly from their class's list of such abilities.
Once that decision was made, a lot of the most exciting feats suddenly looked more like class-based powers. Spring Attack, for example, now looked an awful lot like a power for the rogue or melee-based ranger, rather than a feat that just anybody could pick up. Manyshot, Whirlwind Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Shot on the Run-these were specialized powers appropriate for particular character archetypes.
So what design space did that leave for feats? After some discussion, we came to see feats as the "fine-tuning" that your character performed after defining his role (via your choice of class) and his build (via your power selections). Feats would let characters further specialize in their roles and builds, as well as to differentiate themselves from other characters with similar power selections.
They would accomplish these goals with simple, basic functionality, rather than complicated conditional benefits or entirely new powers that you'd have to track alongside those of your class.
Here are four examples of feats taken from the latest draft of the 4th Edition Player's Handbook. The first two demonstrate the minor evolution of familiar favorites from 3rd Edition, while the other two show off some new tricks. As always, nothing's final until you read it in the printed book, so take these with a grain of salt.
Toughness
Tier: Heroic
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain additional hit points equal to your level + 3. You also gain 1 additional hit point every time you gain a level.Alertness
Tier: Heroic
Benefit: You don't grant enemies combat advantage in surprise rounds.
You also gain a +2 feat bonus to Perception checks.First Reaction
Tier: Paragon
Benefit: If you are surprised, you may spend an action point to act during the surprise round.Golden Wyvern Adept
Tier: Paragon
Benefit: You can omit a number of squares from the effects of any of your area or close wizard powers. This number can't exceed your Wisdom modifier.
*Long heavy sigh*
I am trying to be good here... I will skip a ton of stuff I want to say.
But... But... "Combat ability" feats are going to be class abilities now?
No chance for the Cleric to take Spring Attack to drop a healing spell on a comrade (or a harm spell on an enemy) and get out of harms way without taking rogue or melee based ranger levels? (Possibly others, have to wait and see.)
Now, I am not suggesting Spring Attack is an optimal choice for a Cleric... But it was one of my favorite tactics in a sub-optimal game (my group usually runs these).
Multi classing better not hurt anymore - at all - to take the sting out of this <expletive>.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled (productive) discussion.
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Wow. They completely ruined feats.
Those are some really worthless feats. If those are the shining examples that are supposed to get us hot about 4th edition, we are in trouble. You could totally forget to pick a feat when you level and not even care.
Ummmmm...no.
Alertness remains fairly unchanged. Presuming Perception includes at least the former skills called Spot and Listen it provides the same bonus as before. If Perception also includes Search, like I think it will, then this feat gives a slight advantage over the 3.5 version.
Toughness not only provides an additional 3+level bump to hp but it provides an additional 1 hp per level. I don't know of any player who would sneeze at a 3+character level bump alone. The additional hit point each level might seem like nothing but just a slight increase can be nice, especially if they retain the d4 hit die for some insane reason.
Golden Wyvern Adept allows you to wrap your AoE spells around allies. While at one time this was the purview of the Archmage prestige class it is now available to any spellcaster. It appears to be available after 11th level based on the designation tier of Paragon. What 11th level wizard wouldn't want to be able to cast his AoE spells with some limited impunity?
First Reaction allows you to act during a surprise round. Very nice. It also confirms the presence of action points in the game.
None of these feats are what I would call worthless. They all seem pretty significant even viewed through the shady lens of 4e previews. Heck, they would be quite significant in 3.5 for that matter.
*Long heavy sigh*
No chance for the Cleric to take Spring Attack to drop a healing spell on a comrade (or a harm spell on an enemy) and get out of harms way without taking rogue or melee based ranger levels? (Possibly others, have to wait and see.)
It... wasn't really a chance in 3.5. Casting a spell isn't an attack.
In any case, I'm glad to see they've finally streamlined Improved Toughness into Toughness. That's something we've seen in pretty much every D&D video game for some time now, because it's just a good idea.
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Multi classing better not hurt anymore - at all - to take the sting out of this <expletive>.
It has already been stated that multiclassing will look completely different. According to what they have said it will be easier, less painful, and more beneficial (especially for fighter/caster hybrids).
The hints they have dropped make it look like something you can add to your base class without completely abandoning it. But that is partial conjecture on my part. Some suggestions seem to indicate prestige classes will be quite similar in this regard as well.
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT!
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It... wasn't really a chance in 3.5. Casting a spell isn't an attack.
Ahhh... But while casting your cure/inflict spell isn't an attack, actually connecting with them is.
It has already been stated that multiclassing will look completely different. According to what they have said it will be easier, less painful, and more beneficial (especially for fighter/caster hybrids).
The hints they have dropped make it look like something you can add to your base class without completely abandoning it. But that is partial conjecture on my part. Some suggestions seem to indicate prestige classes will be quite similar in this regard as well.
Yeah... I am aware of these things...
But I don't trust the game will be simpler, or faster, either. :-P
This looks really promising to me. I really like the idea that the flashy, specialized feats are now class abilities and that feats are now more about fine-tuning your character's attributes.
As for the thought that it will limit you (e.g. a cleric not being able to take spring attack), I'm pretty sure there will be plenty of options for interesting tactics to make up for the loss of a particular tactic from 3.5 -- there may even be a spring attack-like "power" for clerics to take.
Honestly sometimes I think it'd be less of a headache just to swallow my pride and buy the stupid subscription. But then again, it's free and I can't get it to load--who says it would load even if I paid them.
Forgive me, but I think you may be misunderstanding something. There is no subscription to buy -- it's not a question of should I or shouldn't I buy it, it just doesn't exist yet. Unless there is a problem with your browser settings, you shouldn't be having a persistent problem accessing the site. What error do you get when it tries to load? If it says you need to be logged in, you simply need to register and log in HERE. You don't pay for anything (or even give any payment information).
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Well - It might not be all shiny - but at least this article about 4th ed. didn't make my eyes bleed, so I guess thats a plus.
As for the "useless" feats - I think they are - at a first glance and without playtesting experience (on my part, I hope these guys at wizards test(ed) them...I really still hope...) better balanced then 3rd ed. variants.
Sied Note: I use perception instead of spot/listen since I feel it's really more a matter of personal alertness then of a specific sense
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I don't like the squares instead of feet for distances. The line between minis and roleplaying are gone apparently. But so far I've not seen much that basically screams new edition. Some feats become class abilities, which to my opinion just relates to a new classe with new options, but feats itself is still structured as feats in 3.5
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Cant say im to happy with what they have done. I could be wrong but it seems to me that if they are integrating certain feats into certain classes then its going to lead to a lot of static cookie cutter charecters (All rogues being nigh on identical, all fighters etc) and for a person like me who liked to be able to take a class and do it in a diffrent way it seems a little off putting.
Ps Cant say im to thrilled about the inclusion of action points either.
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I don't like the squares instead of feet for distances.
To be fair, there MAY be another motive (most likely not): Not all of their customers use feet as a measurement on a regular basis, a large chunk of the world uses the metric system instead.
Also, for some things we've already seen descriptions in terms of squares. The archmage's ability comparage to Golden Wyvern Adept is measured in 5 foot "squares" so for this ability its not that much difference.
I'd reprint, but it occurs to me that the copyright prohibits distribution or public display or some such language so I'll refrain.
I'm pretty sure reprinting it here is covered under "Fair Use", as the purpose of this thread is to discuss that article. Also, given the number of articles that have been reprinted in other threads, I think Gary or someone would've deleted offending posts before if it was a problem.
....
As for the article, I'm kind of interested in how the tiers work into things. Are they moving away from level based prerequisites, and going for tier stuff? Are they basing it on tiers? Or is the idea really just half-formed still at this late stage in the game?
I'm curious to see how that'll evolve by the time the books hit the shelves.
Also, I don't think the feats are bad at all. Toughness is finally worthwhile. Alertness got a really awesome boost (I don't know what 'combat advantage' is in 4e, but in 3e it would equate to not being flat-footed and keeping your dex bonus in the surprise round). Gold Wyvern should probably just dump the wisdom limit - by 'Paragon' levels, you shouldn't have to pick and choose which of your buddies will have to take a hit to really maximize your area abilities. And First Reaction... meh, it just needs a better name. Sounds like a good feat for those critical battles, depending on how scarce action points are.
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In any case, I'm glad to see they've finally streamlined Improved Toughness into Toughness. That's something we've seen in pretty much every D&D video game for some time now, because it's just a good idea.
And they gave it a little bit of a bump. I was glad to see this as well. Overall, what I read made me think "meh". It wasn't exactly thrilling, but it doesn't seem to completely suck. Only time, and more information, will tell.
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Finally, they actually gave some actual rules in a design and development article. The feats aren't bad, although the Golden Wyvern feat reeks of the horrid wizard traditions. What really bugs me is that feats aren't really supposed to give unique abilities and options anymore. They just further define your role. They might as well change the names of the classes to divine leader, martial defender, divine defender, martial striker I, martial striker II, arcane striker, martial leader, and arcane controller instead of cleric, fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue, warlock, warlord, and wizard.
I was actually glad to see that there would be feats. I thought feats were one of the best additions to 3.0 - and I am gald they will continue in some form. I also like the idea that some at least will scale with your level.
I hope that class features will be loose enough that you can tailor the way I want. For example a tree that allows a mage to be quick and get evasion and improved evasion but does not require taking rogue levels - and thus trap finding and sneak attack.
It... wasn't really a chance in 3.5. Casting a spell isn't an attack.Ahhh... But while casting your cure/inflict spell isn't an attack, actually connecting with them is.
Spring Attack only protects you from the target, not other threatening enemies. Thus, it wouldn't protect you while trying to move in and heal someone. Additionally, a cleric in medium armor can't move more than 20ft., which drastically limits the movement before and after an attack with Spring Attack.
I thought this part was pretty intriguing:
Alertness
Tier: Heroic
Benefit: You don't grant enemies combat advantage in surprise rounds.
You also gain a +2 feat bonus to Perception checks.
It's the first part of the Benefit that I'm talking about. My interpretation is that this is the equivalent of (in 3.5) adding "You aren't considered to be flat-footed in the surprise round" as a benefit to the Alertness feat. Since the 3.5 Alertness feat was a fairly useless one, I think this is a pretty interesting iteration.
And I'm curious to see what "combat advantage" foes get during the surprise round, since this implies to me that it way well not be just the same as in 3.5. Something other than the 3.5 flat-footed mechanic (which punishes high-Dex people far more than low-Dex people) could be a good change.
I don't like the squares instead of feet for distances.To be fair, there MAY be another motive (most likely not): Not all of their customers use feet as a measurement on a regular basis, a large chunk of the world uses the metric system instead.
Also, for some things we've already seen descriptions in terms of squares. The archmage's ability comparage to Golden Wyvern Adept is measured in 5 foot "squares" so for this ability its not that much difference.
Squares make more sense than feet if your focus is writing for the virtual tabletop, rather than a battlemat. And, to be fair, it even makes more sense for the battlemat...
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I don't like the squares instead of feet for distances.To be fair, there MAY be another motive (most likely not): Not all of their customers use feet as a measurement on a regular basis, a large chunk of the world uses the metric system instead.
Yup.
Fortunately for us metric system users, during the official translations, usually there's also the conversion needed. So 30 feet become 9 meters (approximated), 1-foot increments become 30 centimeters blocks, etc.No real biggie here.
Having the world statted in squares to maximize compatibility with minis use - while interesting as a step backward towards the skirmish/wargame origins of D&D - is not completely a good thing: as every simplifation, it takes away a little bit of flexibility and variety (not to talk about realism or verisimilitude) from the game.
We'll have to see at the table if it's worth the quicker, easier play.
Back to the feats topic: I'm more interested in seeing how the boatload of newer stuff that will become available with supplements replicates the situation we have with the 3.X feats, or if the design team has come up with a more logical system of "primary/core feats" and "secondary/flavor feats".
Due to threadjacking:
Ahhh... But while casting your cure/inflict spell isn't an attack, actually connecting with them is.Spring Attack only protects you from the target, not other threatening enemies. Thus, it wouldn't protect you while trying to move in and heal someone. Additionally, a cleric in medium armor can't move more than 20ft., which drastically limits the movement before and after an attack with Spring Attack.
It's not the protection you need. It is the moving before and after touching the target. Move in 10' and step out even 5' can often mean the difference between staying in the danger zone and being able to cast your next spell without provoking attacks of oportunity/casting defensively.
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I thought this part was pretty intriguing:
Alertness
Tier: Heroic
Benefit: You don't grant enemies combat advantage in surprise rounds.
You also gain a +2 feat bonus to Perception checks.It's the first part of the Benefit that I'm talking about. My interpretation is that this is the equivalent of (in 3.5) adding "You aren't considered to be flat-footed in the surprise round" as a benefit to the Alertness feat. Since the 3.5 Alertness feat was a fairly useless one, I think this is a pretty interesting iteration.
And I'm curious to see what "combat advantage" foes get during the surprise round, since this implies to me that it way well not be just the same as in 3.5. Something other than the 3.5 flat-footed mechanic (which punishes high-Dex people far more than low-Dex people) could be a good change.
I somehow missed that first part. That is very intriguing.
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Cant say im to happy with what they have done. I could be wrong but it seems to me that if they are integrating certain feats into certain classes then its going to lead to a lot of static cookie cutter charecters (All rogues being nigh on identical, all fighters etc) and for a person like me who liked to be able to take a class and do it in a diffrent way it seems a little off putting.
I get the idea you will be able to choose your class abilities. Thus, you could choose Spring Attack for your rogue but you could also choose power x, y, or z instead. I think the customization comes in those choices.
I had heard something like talent trees would be available, a series of power chains that help define a character. But I am not sure how official that was.
Also, it appears the ability to re-work your character's choices, a la PHB2, will be a standard part of the rules as well.
The feats are fine IMO (although "Golden Wyvern Adept" is a bit, um, verbose).
Alertness is unchanged, the new toughness makes sense, the action point one, well, sounds like something an action point should be usable for anyway.
Would I incorporate any of these in my 3.5 game? Well, 2 of them are already there (as mentioned in this thread), the new toughness sounds good, but I don't play with action points, so no need for that one. (Though if I did play with action points, this "feat" would be something everyone would get for free.)
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Some of the feats in 3.x do suck. I think toughness is a great example. But just about everyone I know uses Improved Toughness. The only real difference between the two is that toughness is better at 1st level. So, the new feat is much better than toughness (since it can grant an extra 33 hp - 11x as many) and a bit better than Improved Toughness.
But it still sucks. I'm glad I already made the decision to stick with 3.x with some houserules.
How does it make sense that a character can't learn to fight with two weapons if they're a wizard. If I want to make a Gandalf clone who fights with a sword and staff (burning a feat for martial weapon proficiency as well) I think I should be able to. Now while they're right that a poorly designed character can hurt the entire party, I think that our group can handle that ourselves.
I was hoping they'd go to a system with more flexibility, not less. $th edition sounds like a step backwards in a lot of ways(coughMonsterDesigncough).
I suspect that most classes will have four or five talent tress like in Star Wars Saga. They may also have a couple of "general" talent tree that multiple classes can access from. If this is the case, multiclassing to get an ability might not be a big deal. Then again...
I don't like having marshmellows in everything.
I am against action points being standard. Optional, yes. Homebrew, yes. Alternate system (UA), yes. Gameworld specific (Eberron), of course. Standard, NO.
I was hoping they'd go to a system with more flexibility, not less. $th edition sounds like a step backwards in a lot of ways(coughMonsterDesigncough).
Yeah. This appears to be the exact opposite direction I was hoping they'd go with 4th edition.
I'm finding it more and more difficult to keep an open mind about it...
Yay! I finally got to read the dumb article! (For those of you interested in the technical side of my woes--I'm caught in a perpetual Catch-22 where the sign-in software tells me to go migrate my account and the migration software tells me I've already migrated my accout, back to the sign-in software that tells me to migrate my account...blargh!)
So all told, here's my take. I think they're right, I think there's way too many worthless feats (though I would add that it's also irritating how entirely combat-focused they are--making it hard for combat light characters to pick anything without feeling dirty about it). I think things do need to be rebalanced to give it a more streamlined "feats are like this" feel. Right now feats do everything from giving you ridiculous regeneration powers, whole new combat abilities that other folks "can't do" to a little bump to your Reflex Save or a +2 in a couple of skills. Weird stuff.
I don't mind the idea of making a lot of feat effects into class levels. That makes some sense and gives more cool stuff to the classes (which should make them seem a lot less spare).
The idea of feats as fine-tuning though is just depressing. I always enjoyed the original 3.0 idea of feats as a way to break the rules. If you're a wizard, but like Gandolf you can use a sword, you just take the feat and you can. That way feats get you into the ballpark of what kind of character you want to play--but there's always options. It's like the old Skills and Powers but with hours less of character creation.
The new feats sound so pidgeonholed, I'm afraid myself and my players will be even more bummed out when they hit a new feat level. As it is there's a kind of heavy sigh followed by much flipping through books looking for something that fits and makes sense. I guess now it's going to just be more of that.
Let me say that I for one am incredibly excited that they've FINALLY given us some indication that there are actually rules being written for 4th edition, instead of what I suspected (that they were going to wait until the publishing deadline and then ad lib the whole thing).
I also think the streamlining of feats is a good idea, the idea of tiered feats sorta makes sense, and I really like the examples given. Merging Listen and Spot is a great idea, too. This is all good stuff.
The bad news: "feats help you specialize in your role." I was desperately hoping they'd minimize the "you pick a class and it defines your every aspect" that drives D&D. I almost always multiclass just because I hate being pigeonholed into a role. Feats in 3e helped you break out of the mold, too. If their primary purpose now is force you further into it, I'll not be playing 4th edition--despite how much I like some of the things they just showed us in this article.
Ummm. Just wanted to say that I did not mean to call it $th edition. I know that a lot of people do that. I have been calling it 4th the whole time, and while I think of it as a moneygrab, I have no idea why I hit the shift key when I wrote that.
Strangely enough, when I read your post I was actually wondering about that, because from what I've seen of your posts, that really didn't seem like your "style" of post.
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And I'm curious to see what "combat advantage" foes get during the surprise round, since this implies to me that it way well not be just the same as in 3.5. Something other than the 3.5 flat-footed mechanic (which punishes high-Dex people far more than low-Dex people) could be a good change.
My guess is that the result is mathematically similar to the 3.5 feat. In 3.5 you GAIN suprise but everyone else "becomes" flat-footed (with exceptions of course). That's silly. Looks like in 4E if you GAIN suprise you gain a bonus to hit more than likely. Probably a flat +4 bonus to hit.
The 4E mechanic philosophy seems to be "Attacker does all the calculating/rolling". The 3.5 flat-footed rules meant the defender had to re-calculate AC. Now it would appear the attacker gets a bonus. If this is the case, I like it. I really hated getting the jump on say a cleric with 10 Dex...the to hit roll was the same.
Less versatility! Yay! I was really tired of being able to get some abilities which while not fitting the classes "role" like a glove still made sense for the character concept.
Did I mention that my eyes rolled the whole time while I wrote this? I'm amazed that I managed to write more than one word correctly, and that the eyes didn't fly out of the sockets due to centrifugal force.
I start to suspect that Wizards just doesn't like me, so they spread those slanderous lies about the game, hoping that I won't buy it. My money stinks or something.
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I think it looks great. Reinforcing the archetypes is very in line with what D&D is. The whole class system is SUPPOSED to be about archetypes. Making a lot of the "popular" feats into class abilities rocks because it reinforces those archetypes then you can actually use your feat selection to get the "forgotten" feats.
I did wince at the Wyvern whatever feat though. The mention of "squares" makes it obvious this will be overly battle mat oriented like 3.5e.
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I start to suspect that Wizards just doesn't like me, so they spread those slanderous lies about the game, hoping that I won't buy it. My money stinks or something.
Paizo loves your stinky money. Feel free to give as much of it to us as you want. We'll even give you something neat in return. ^_^
I start to suspect that Wizards just doesn't like me, so they spread those slanderous lies about the game, hoping that I won't buy it. My money stinks or something.Paizo loves your stinky money. Feel free to give as much of it to us as you want. We'll even give you something neat in return. ^_^
See, that's the slick, money-grabbing way I want to see in a real corporate rep. ;-p
Sign me up for a Pathfinder Chronicles Subscription.
I'm relieved. I feared that the dough would stink up the place and I'd have to spend it on some heavy duty money-stink cleaners (pretty expensive, but very effective: You buy some, and the money stink is gone)