A question about the future round rules (serious)

[neorxnawang]

Regardless of who is selected to participate in future rounds, some of the evaluators for advancing raise some interesting questions that I don't think are clearly addressed in the contest rules. These chiefly concern the IP rights surrounding future round submissions.

The contest rules are quite clear that the initial entries (wondrous items) become the IP of Paizo. No big deal, they're limited to 200 words. I don't think the contest rules are as clear with respect to later rounds.

Villains with stat blocks, sample encounter, and 3 homebrew related monsters, likewise, give me little pause in this regard. They just aren't that much work, so regardless of who owns the IP, who really cares.

But I think it likely that the people who entered this contest and will be selected to advance (just by virtue of the fact that they can write) might be a little sensitive about the IP rights of things like countries and full blown adventure proposals. Some of these people are likely already writers affiliated with one company or another. (Many of the people who passed on to WOTC's later rounds of the internship contest were already people loosely connected to WOTC). Because the deadlines are short, it is very likely that one of two things are going to happen:

1. People are going to polish up something already on their computers and submit it; or
2. Comparative dreck is going to be turned in to avoid IP questions with the better stuff.

I would hate to send in my best work as a round of 32 contestant, not advance, and then have to take a whole country out of an upcoming publication (or worse, scrub a whole adventure). And I'm sure I'm not alone.

So I have some serious questions.

1. How is Paizo interpreting the contest rules with respect to longer-length submissions in subsequent rounds, particularly with respect to countries and adventure proposals? Especially for people who do not advance past the round in question? I think this is a particularly sensitive question for the round of 32, which appears to involve a labor intensive project, a short deadline likely necessitating use of prior work, and a high chance of not carrying on to the next round.
2. If the answer is "everything you submit in any round is ours/all your mise is belong to us", how interested or amenable is Paizo going to be in allowing someone a license to finish the product and publish it through Paizo (or, conversely, just license it back)?
3. If someone passes to the round of 32, doesn't like the answer to the foregoing questions and drops out or sends you second best, what is Paizo's general policy on SRD friendly submissions? Does Paizo ever license as opposed to own the IP of submissions?

[Steven Helt]

Dear Guys At Paizo:

I understand all my submissions are yours. If I want to use them later and you don't want them, I will beg to get them back. Or not. Your choice.

If I don't win Superstar, all the ideas are still yours. You should tab me as a writer or consultant if you want to use them, but you don't have to.

I have more ideas where these came from. You should hire me to write them all. I'll try to impress you in five days, but we'll see how that turns out.

In any event, I have no questions about my sumissions becoming your intellectual property.

[varianor]

neorxnawang wrote:

1. People are going to polish up something already on their computers and submit it; or

2. Comparative dreck is going to be turned in to avoid IP questions with the better stuff.

Why make this assumption? If you can write great stuff, come up with more! (Although I am neither hoping to lose or counting on winning, I am enjoying the wait. If I were to advance, I have a handy file full of new ideas that I intend to create from.)

[propeliea]

varianor wrote:

neorxnawang wrote:

1. People are going to polish up something already on their computers and submit it; or

2. Comparative dreck is going to be turned in to avoid IP questions with the better stuff.

Why make this assumption? If you can write great stuff, come up with more! (Although I am neither hoping to lose or counting on winning, I am enjoying the wait. If I were to advance, I have a handy file full of new ideas that I intend to create from.)

I agree with Varianor. Superstar implies being a pretty solid writer, along with good (great?) design skills.

The IP thing blows my mind. The exposure of this contest is frankly worth your best ideas if you want to be paid for this kind of writing. The chances of making a private enterprise with your IP in game design is much more remote than winning this contest.

Take your best shot at the best opportunity.

[Pale]

Propeliea, I know that this is going to sound like it's coming out of left field but... you aren't an avid comic book fan, are you?

The reason I ask is because, since I am an extremely avid comic book fan and I grew up in the 70s and 80s I was made well aware of the consequences of giving up IP rights in exchange for exposure.

When Batman was first written, it was just a kids book. Something to be read and thrown away or burnt in the dry trash pile. Look at what that IP is worth right now.

Do I think that my best ideas could ever garner that kind of money sometime in the future? No.

Should you poo-poo people's concerns about throwing away their IP righst? No.

[Evilturnip]

Yeah, one of the writing tips you hear over and over again is write, write, write, all the time...and read when you're not writing. Some of it will be great, some of it will need work to become great, and some of it will be garbage.

If you're making enough of an effort to apply in this contest, pour your heart into it, and do your best. Worrying about not being able to use it afterward won't help you write it, and if it doesn't win, you can be pretty sure that you'll come up with an even better idea soon enough to pursue.

Humans are amazing, and always coming up with new ideas for things to do. As it stands right now, I doubt I'll be able to finish all of the plans and projects I want to do today given 50 years or so to do work with...

But given the topic of IP rights, I really can't see any other way of Paizo doing this contest without acquiring the IP rights of the entries.

[neorxnawang]

Wholly setting aside my qualifications or lack thereof, take the hypothetical situation of someone who has had several RPGs published, has one ready to send out, and could probably get it published, contest or no contest.

Given how past contests of this nature have gone, I think it likely that some people fitting this description will be around after the cut. It's not so hypothetical. I have $5 that says that of the bios of the top 32, at least 10 will have prior publication credits.

I can't think of a similar contest in the gaming industry where they weren't, unless they were disqualified up front. (And they weren't in this one; a cover credit on a hardback is a short list since many books are softcover, and even this requirement was eroded to "not a permanent gaming company employee", which is a REALLY short list).

Do you take the chance that you will lose the IP and not be able to get it back? Do you look at the prospect of writing something good in 5 days around other responsibilities? Do you just do the best you can in 5 days with something else?

Or do you ask a question about the rules, which aren't as clear as they might be?

I would ask a question about the rules. So I did.

Acquiring title to submissions is a way that a lot of companies conduct their business, but not all of them. Some only acquire FNAMP rights (first North American publication license) for accepted manuscripts. Most acquire no rights at all to rejected submissions.

[R D Ramsey]

Evilturnip wrote:

But given the topic of IP rights, I really can't see any other way of Paizo doing this contest without acquiring the IP rights of the entries.

I agree, I don't see how they can't require them. Unacceptable level of exposure for them if they don't.

Here's why I'm not worried about it in the end- if they like my approach that much, they'll want to get more of it from me, and they'll compensate me for that if the time comes. If not, no point in worrying about it anyway.

[Jim Groves]

Instinct says I should keep quiet and let a professional answer this..

But, I have few observations.

Original Poster (with the unusual name), aren't you kind of looking at this as a professional trying to enter and win a contest designed to allow amatuers an opportunity to break out? Granted the rules don't forbid someone who has been published from participating, short of those having their name on a hardback book, - but your post has the tone of a 'ringer'.

Mind you, just so that there's no misunderstanding, I'm not accusing you of a rule violation, but there is something to be said about the "spirit of the contest." As well as the ability to think creatively in a short amount of time. If you don't want to send your best work because you think you can sell it, then don't send it.

Me? I don't have anything that I think I can sell right now, but maybe this contest will help me discover that I have a talent that I never knew I had. That, for me, is the true spirit of this contest. As I said elsewhere, I come into this with nothing, so I have nothing to lose. If you're worried about the IP of your submission, obviously you're bringing something with you, maybe you should leave it behind and work on the same level that many of the rest us are.

Calling the work of people with dreams and not much else 'drek' is pretty arrogant. They might surprise you.

And Pale? You look like an account that was created just to make this reply, or as psuedonym for another poster.

[Jim Groves]

neorxnawang wrote:

Given how past contests of this nature have gone, I think it likely that some people fitting this description will be around after the cut. It's not so hypothetical. I have $5 that says that of the bios of the top 32, at least 10 will have prior publication credits.

Well this was posted in between your first post and my previous reply. So, I guess this *is* where you stand.

You do think semi-pros are the only ones to win.

<shrug>

I suppose I should be discouraged, but I think I'll take the five days that I'm given and take my best shot.

Good luck in any case. Good sportsmanship and the like.

[The-Last-Rogue]

me is purty shure dat reel riters nose wen de gunna git publitched. de ar not foolz; de not gunna turn stuff datz gunna git publitched into dis contist, but de steel wood send good stuff if de intered.

OP, iffin ur worred bout ur IPs beein so good de gunna git publitched den dont send em; den agin if de dat good u mite bee winnin.

De Las Rog'

[neorxnawang]

By all means, bon chance.

Actually, in the interest of fairness, I'll allude to where I am coming from. I have never had anything published in the way of a fantasy/D&D supplement, and I'm not a pro or a semi-pro. I have, however, had a problem with having IP of mine which I shared with someone showing up in a lightly modified form elsewhere and them making a buck off of it. So its a topic of interest to me.

But I had some time today, I trolled the boards, and it was apparent to me that several people who might fairly be described as "loosely affiliated" with various gaming companies had entered (including Paizo authors), and other people were expressing concern about them dominating the competition. The initial round is being judged anonymously (which is good), but the later rounds aren't.

I am wondering if there is a level playing field, how level it is, and how much someone should think about putting into the contest to overcome someone with an inside track. And if I go all out, what's the price I'm going to be charged. Some people might legitmately not care. It's a piece of information that I would like to have.

And do I think that semi-pros have an inside track in these kinds of contests? Absolutely. The track records of these kinds of contests establish it. Dancing with the Stars? Mel B may not be primarily a dancer, but she has put in a lot of choreography hours in her day. Same with Marie Osmond. The singers on American Idol (at least the ones around at the end) didnt pick up a mike for the first time at auditions; several of them were in obscure bands, were related to other singers.

People are semi-pros because the market has previously recognized their ability to publish, and people vote for people they recognize as much as they do based on extrinsic merit (if there is such a thing in a writing competition outside of "obviously bad.").

EDIT: The one thing that would really grind my gears is if I spent a lot of time on something, sent it in, lost, and then had someone else sell the "losing entry." That's why I'm asking.

[The-Last-Rogue]

Dagnabbit! What happened to my horribly improvised bad spelling/offensivesly horrid cajun hybrid post!?

[varianor]

I'm still curious as to why you're averse to writing something new for the contest?

neorxnawang wrote:

By all means, bon chance.

I am wondering if there is a level playing field, how level it is, and how much someone should think about putting into the contest to overcome someone with an inside track. And if I go all out, what's the price I'm going to be charged. Some people might legitmately not care. It's a piece of information that I would like to have.

That's a fair question. However, why not wait to see who makes it to the second round? Sure, there are previously published people here. (I have five minor publication credits myself.) That doesn't mean that those skilled and/or talented individuals who make it into Round Two all have an "inside track". They have more experience at working at a deadline yes, but someone with pride and passion and drive might just beat the semi pros out. American Idol produces new stars every year. Why should this be any different?

neorxnawang wrote:

EDIT: The one thing that would really grind my gears is if I spent a lot of time on something, sent it in, lost, and then had someone...

It sounds like you're having trouble with the idea of letting go of your writing. (In the context where some jerk also previously ripped you off, I can understand.) That's a tough thing to do at first. If the contest were to design a whole new RPG, I can see the concern a lot more. However, right now we're talking a single wondrous item and a single country. If you get to Round Two.

If you're inspired and you write all the time and keep at it, you'll find more great ideas. It's hard to believe at first. After a while though, you realize that they keep coming and coming. Trust in yourself. If you get to Round Two, go all out. Good luck! :)

[Jim Groves]

neorxnawang wrote:

By all means, bon chance.

Actually, in the interest of fairness, I'll allude to where I am coming from. I have never had anything published in the way of a fantasy/D&D supplement, and I'm not a pro or a semi-pro. I have, however, had a problem with having IP of mine which I shared with someone showing up in a lightly modified form elsewhere and them making a buck off of it. So its a topic of interest to me.

I concede that would harden a person.

neorxnawang wrote:

But I had some time today, I trolled the boards, and it was apparent to me that several people who might fairly be described as "loosely affiliated" with various gaming companies had entered (including Paizo authors), and other people were expressing concern about them dominating the competition. The initial round is being judged anonymously (which is good), but the later rounds aren't

I believe I recall the thread that took place on this site. <nod> I follow you.

neorxnawang wrote:

I am wondering if there is a level playing field, how level it is, and how much someone should think about putting into the contest to overcome someone with an inside track. And if I go all out, what's the price I'm going to be charged. Some people might legitimately not care. It's a piece of information that I would like to have.

Okay, I can see that. Consider me less harsh than I was before, because I can empathize to a degree. However, obviously I'm not a Paizo Rep, but I don't think there's going to be any good news for you.

neorxnawang wrote:

And do I think that semi-pros have an inside track in these kinds of contests? Absolutely. <snip American Idol>

People are semi-pros because the market has previously recognized their ability to publish, and people vote for people they recognize as much as they do based on extrinsic merit (if there is such a thing in a writing competition outside of "obviously bad.").

Well, now I know where you're coming from..

All I can say, despite what has happened in other contests (RPG related or otherwise), you might just have to have some faith. Faith in yourself, faith in your work, faith in others not to make this a popularity contest. I accept that can be difficult, but you have to try.

Because walking around believing in nothing is a recipe for living a life dominated by doubt.

Anyway, we'll see what happens on the 28th, and how many people with writing credits are in the 32. Then we'll see how people respond to that (if it comes to pass).

In the meantime, I hope you get your answers, and they're the ones you're hoping for.

[neorxnawang]

I'm not, necessarily. I just want to know the rules of a game before I spend any significant amount of time playing. (shrug). If I'm playing two on two against Lebron James and Kobe Bryant, I'm not going to drive the lane and end up on my kiester unless they agree not to put me there :-)

[Steven Helt]

I've played DnD for 25 years. I have competed against Dms and played in very special, long campaigns to hone my skills. I was a retailer for a short amount of time, but posted huge numbers over the other guy's performance the years before.

I'll take my three months of contest material and put them up against any designer in the industry. I might not be better than all of them. I might not be better than any of them this time around. But I'll stand behind my product and I'm not overwhelmed by the idea of competing with any of them.

Everyone who read the admonition that 'if you can't follow throught to the end, don't enter' shoudl be able to say the same thing. The judges are telling us there are 100 class entries, and that the top 32 are top choice. I can't name 32 writers I won't put my adventures up against.

I'm in until the public kicks me out - and the rest of you should be also. And if I don't make it to the next round or any other, that's on me, not on my competition. Either my stuff is (what's the word we've been reading?) Superstar, or it isn't.

Accordingly, I am very curious to know which accomplshed authors I'm competing against. Imagine this on your resume:

Finished in top 16 of Paizo Superstar 2007. Lost to Nic Logue, Steven Greer, Tim Hitchcock, Richard Pett et al.

I will share shoulder space with those names any time you ask me.

[neorxnawang]

ancientsensei wrote:

Accordingly, I am very curious to know which accomplshed authors I'm competing against. Imagine this on your resume:

Finished in top 16 of Paizo Superstar 2007. Lost to Nic Logue, Steven Greer, Tim Hitchcock, Richard Pett et al.

I will share shoulder space with those names any time you ask me.

Excellent point I hadn't considered.

[R D Ramsey]

ancientsensei wrote:

Lost to Nic Logue, Steven Greer, Tim Hitchcock, Richard Pett et al.

To me, that's the proper attitude. After all, whoever wins this will be going up "against" them in the marketplace anyway. Why would Paizo accept anyone who was turning out work any less spectacular than theirs?

I've mostly been a shopper at Paizo, haven't been on the boards much. I spend most of my net time around screenwriter sites, and something someone said on one of them once stays with me- It's not the other wannabes who are your competition. Being better than them gets you nowhere. It's being better at what you do than the writer with several billion dollars of worldwide box office that gets you the job. If you're not better than him, why would the studios hire you?

The key phrase, of course, being "st what you do", which shouldn't be what the existing pros do, but should be every bit as compelling.

Yep, it's a tough row to hoe, but that's the game.

[Jim Groves]

neorxnawang wrote:

Excellent point I hadn't considered.

That's the spirit! :)

[Erik Mona]

Paizo will own all rights to all submissions in all rounds of the contest. The fact of the matter is that we probably won't _do_ anything with most of these rights, but we have to claim them in order to protect ourselves.

I think the country submission will be a lot less work intensive than many people seem to be fearing, so "giving up" the ideas contained in it shouldn't be that big of a deal. If you've got a killer country you don't want to cede in the name of the contest, I strongly urge you to come up with something else that you are less attached to. It might not be as cool (in your view--we probably won't know the difference), but them's the breaks.

The full adventure proposal is a bigger deal, but that's only going to affect four people, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I've been actively writing in the game industry since 1996. I've been on the cover of a half-dozen books, designed and edited products for a handful of companies, and wrote more than 100 magazine editorials and scores of articles.

Wanna know how many things I own the rights to?

Two.

The introduction to "The Anubis Murders," and an article I wrote (for free) for an MIT Press scholarly book about roleplaying.

That's right. I've written literally millions of words for D&D, and I don't own a single one of them. If you're excited about the opportunity to write for RPGs, I think you need to get yourself in the mindset that you are an idea factory capable of coming up with cool new ideas each time you sit in front of your computer.

And, just to clarify, we never "eroded" the hardcover cover credit stipulation. Folks with hardcover cover credits are disqualified, as are full-time employees of RPG publishers. The one is not related to the other. Both will get you bounced from the contest.

I appreciate that this isn't the answer you were looking for, but it is the way it's going down.

--Erik Mona
RPG Superstar Judge

[Neffier]

I'll say this for myself, IP be damned. I don't really care who owns my ideas if they get better because of it. If anything this contest gave me the courage to open my ideas up to critique on a larger scale. I've DM'd continuously for over a decade and and while I'm a big fish in my very small pond. I think that to become a better GM and writer for my own table, I need to step up to another level and get some real feedback in the larger gaming community.

So I plan to start my own campaign blog and keep writing on it, open to critique and feedback. Also I plan write an entry for each round of the competition and post it as well.

I've found that since 3.0 and 3.5 (and especially Paizo's work over the last few years), I've been continually gobsmacked by ideas and rules work I've seen. AOW and STAP were especially beautiful in their simplistic and clockwork brilliance that made me rethink how a long term episodic storyline should work. I had discovered a new plateau to work for.

So I'm thankful for this competition in getting me to try to take my work to the next level,for getting me excited for the game, and taking pride in my work at the table even more.

[propeliea]

Watcher! wrote:

neorxnawang wrote:

Excellent point I hadn't considered.

That's the spirit! :)

There we go!

This is quite the thread now.

I'm not a big comic book guy, but I also do not mean to show a disinterest in IP. I think community IP is arising above sole-artist IP, but that's a whole other topic.

My view is that great IP actually has more lucrative markets if it fits an area beyond print gaming. So, I wouldn't worry about IP that's better for fiction narrative, graphic novels, or movies in this contest--I'd do the best print RPG design. Just like I'm hoping my dialogue sample to Bioware will be worthy there, and that David Hale Smith will enjoy my non-fic proposal, and that the thesis committee digs my Master's website project.

Now, having said that, I've done a small amount of publishing with Paizo and a couple of other gaming companies. It's fun and rewarding, and I've never once thought that doing so endangered my other projects.

Hmm, this rambles a bit. In short, I respect the concern, I'm just thinking that if you think the IP is better suited to make your money elsewhere do that, but make something equally compelling in RPG design for this pursuit. Don't hide your best design work because you think it'll make a good graphic novel or movie--create something befitting those forms if you have solid content for the form.

[Chris Dragich]

Another point to consider is that even if you don't advanced past the country design stage, by submitting it for review you have essentially given a resume to Paizo. There is nothing stopping them from contacting you at a later date after the contest to design something for them or to flesh out your country further for another publication. I would be surprised if this didn't happen, especially at the later stages of the contest.

I have no problem submitting my best idea for a country to this contest if I make the top 32. Giving the IP rights to them does not prevent you from using it in a homebrew campaign, just from publishing it.

[Clark Peterson]

Guys, this is really easy.

There is very little IP you can really claim when hard crunching stuff from an OGL/SRD source.

Where IP could come in, is in names and places and things like that.

So if you are concerned, just change the names.

If you want to own the country of Janarjia and the three monsters you want to create, knows as the three sisters of Gargorondal whose names are Varya, Ken-ithis and Maoromitoria, and a bad guy recurring villain known as Veldar D'Amuthar the Vile, just change their names around a bit and some of the descriptors.

You can protect what you want to own and still submit to this contest.

You guys are acting like there is no way to protect yourself. And there is.

[neorxnawang]

Thanks everybody. People were reading a lot more into my question than was there. I wasn't looking for "any particular" answer, just "the" answer so that decisions could be made accordingly (by myself or anyone else contemplating using something "in the can and looking for a home"), and I think that I've not only gotten it, but some useful food for thought too. Awesome.

Clark is right that one can "change the names" (to a certain extent) to "protect the innocent." Perhaps that is what may be in order, although my cart is obviously WAY in front of my horse.

FWIW, I guess I'm a little unusual. I haven't ever written a fantasy/D&D published thing before (which is the lion's share of the gaming market pie), but that doesn't mean that I haven't written and published gaming material (in another genre) before. In fact, that's why I entered the contest, to see if I could cross-trade or if I'm a one-genre pony. I have published, several times, over the past 20+ years, although only when I felt like something I had done as a hobby writing experiment was worth it.

And I own the IP to all but one of my projects, because my usual editor only asks for FNAMP. Even for the one concerning the time that someone contacted my editor for a license, I sent them a proposal for $1 to license as long as they kept themselves to what they wanted to do, and it appeared anyway without my permission and beyond the scope of what I would have allowed.

Ah well, I did it once, if it comes to it, I can do it again.

PS And no hardcover credits, and not anyone's employee.

[Vic Wertz]

Chris Dragich wrote:

Another point to consider is that even if you don't advanced past the country design stage, by submitting it for review you have essentially given a resume to Paizo.

...and by way of Clark, to Necromancer Games; and by way of Wolfgang, to Open Design/Kobold Quarterly.... and once you're in the top 32, to anyone at all who might be looking in. While we are offering a singular top prize, we all hope that we'll find more than one RPG Superstar here.

[Vic Wertz]

neorxnawang wrote:

2. Comparative dreck is going to be turned in to avoid IP questions with the better stuff.

I think Clark has said what needs to be said with respect to the IP issue here, but I'd like to say something about the strategy of this play.

I've been present for a bunch of art portfolio reviews that include the artist saying that some of the pieces are "not their best work." Let me tell you (that is, the big generic you—I'm not talking to anyone specific here), if you're seriously trying to get somebody to notice you, and you're not showing them your best work, you *deserve* to be overlooked.

Put nothing but your best work into your art portfolio, and bring your "A" game to RPG Superstar. If you can't do that, save yourself the effort and don't even try.

[propeliea]

Vic Wertz wrote:

neorxnawang wrote:

2. Comparative dreck is going to be turned in to avoid IP questions with the better stuff.

I think Clark has said what needs to be said with respect to the IP issue here, but I'd like to say something about the strategy of this play.

I've been present for a bunch of art portfolio reviews that include the artist saying that some of the pieces are "not their best work." Let me tell you (that is, the big generic you—I'm not talking to anyone specific here), if you're seriously trying to get somebody to notice you, and you're not showing them your best work, you *deserve* to be overlooked.

Put nothing but your best work into your art portfolio, and bring your "A" game to RPG Superstar. If you can't do that, save yourself the effort and don't even try.

Yeah, just a voice from the masses, but I doubt anyone here would even think of sending Tor her/his '3rd best novel'.

[Lilith]

Vic Wertz wrote:

I've been present for a bunch of art portfolio reviews that include the artist saying that some of the pieces are "not their best work."

This goes well with the seminar I attended at GenCon. Don't ever bring anything but your A game, and don't apologize for your work (whether written or drawn).

[Erik Mona]

Unless they're already established, in which case it happens frequently! :)

[propeliea]

Erik Mona wrote:

Unless they're already established, in which case it happens frequently! :)

Touche

[magdalena thiriet]

For me the issue is pretty simple: I have no plans on being a full-time professional game designer or even a writer, I prefer keeping my day job, so I dare to throw my IPs to the wind...even if I accidentally did create a new Superman or something like that (I will be mooching drinks in GenCon 2027 with my story how _I_ originally created that cashcow which catapulted Paizo to whole new level...until they were bought by Hasbro).

That observation might mean that I will never have what it takes to be a RPG superstar but I'll live.

While I do agree with Dave Sim sentiment about industry and IP ownership I also have hanged around in fanfic, semiprozine and fanzine circles to realize that hiding great stuff because of fear of IP theft might not be such a good idea...

[varianor]

neorxnawang wrote:

And do I think that semi-pros have an inside track in these kinds of contests? Absolutely. The track records of these kinds of contests establish it. ...

People are semi-pros because the market has previously recognized their ability to publish, and people vote for people they recognize as much as they do based on extrinsic merit (if there is such a thing in a writing competition outside of "obviously bad.").

Bumped for irony. :D

(Not trying to offend neorxnawang either. I just remember the comments and now find it amazing that pretty much a whole crew of raw recruits with hot talent won.)