Didn't known that my writing style was so bad.. My apology but please understand that english is not my native language and that I am trying my best here... thanks.
It's not bad - it's actually pretty darn good for a non-native speaker. Text is particularly bad at portraying the nuances of meaning that you would otherwise pick up on in a face-to-face conversation. No harm, no foul. It's all good. :)
That said, I'm curious about one thing.
Let's say we decide to go with a different edition than the one you intend to play. If your subscription came with a downloadable "conversion guide" file for your preferred system, with all of the correct stat blocks and rules for the adventure, would that convince you to keep up your subscription?
I'm not a Pathfinder subscriber, and I'm currently playing Rise of the Runelords so I haven't signed up. I have no intention of converting to 4e because I don't have the problems WotC is trying to fix to any great degree in my games and I much prefer the design philosophy I see behind 3e to anything I've seen in 4e.
But if you guys published a PDF that came bundled with the subscription in a timely manner (It doesn't have to be the day of the 4e release, but within reason. A few weeks is ok.) and was a fairly complete conversion (full statblocks, not just X is a 5th level fighter and Y is a sorcerer) that would be a killer application for me. I'd be a happily captive market. :) I know you guys do quality work and I'd be happy to support you, but I'm not sure I could justify it if I had to do all the conversion work myself.
It's a given that no matter what we won't be going along with some of the flavor changes coming out of WotC. The "tone" of Pathfinder is not going to change no matter what edition we go with.
That said, I'm curious about one thing.
Let's say we decide to go with a different edition than the one you intend to play. If your subscription came with a downloadable "conversion guide" file for your preferred system, with all of the correct stat blocks and rules for the adventure, would that convince you to keep up your subscription?
That's a very generous offer. I'm in the group that will go the way Paizo goes, generally speaking. But if I could have my cake and eat it too, I'd hope that you stayed w/ 3.5 and had the conversion notes for 4.0.
Why not hedge your bets? Stick w/ 3.5 by and large until you know whether 4th edition is going to be good for you and your customers. There's no reason to be an early adopter, is there? Of the polled groups, I'd say the following would stick w/ you in this scenario:
(1) "Paizo minions" (we think your quality and campaign settings are more important than rules mechanics, so we're sticking w/ you regardless of edition);
(2) "3.5 is my last D&D stop; at least for some time to come" (sticking w/ 3.5 keeps 1 & 2);
(3) "Need more information" (hard to predict where these people will land, but at least some of them will not like the new changes, and thus pad the 1 & 2 groups' numbers);
(4) "4th ed. asap, baby" (you might lose these people, but at this point, I suspect they're the minority of your loyal customers; however, if and when you go to 4th, you could then bring them back to the fold).
I know polling the regulars here on the boards can't give you the whole picture, but if you think our responses & numbers are sufficient to be representative of what you can expect to be our buying choices next year...then why not hedge your bets w/ 3.5 & conversion notes for 4th ed? At least long enough to make a more informed decision. I'm worried that if you make the jump to 4th ed. too early, you'll have a hard time getting back the fans who didn't take the jump w/ you, should you try and reverse course.
Oh, yes.
Necromancer Games and Goodman Games most certainly give Paizo a run for their money....
My bad for not knowing such nice publishers since I was not been exposed to their products until now...
But to be honest, when I see the cover of a Dungeon Crawl Classic, good story and interesting campaign is not exactly what those products inspired me... I am not really a fan of the old 2E dungeons crawl... or of the Gary Gygax DnD Style... I am not a dungeons crawl fan at all... At least the Pathfinder offer me some alternative and if I find one of their dungeon to long, I cut them to a more interesting level... The storyline, intrigues and RPG opportunities is what I like...
And for Necromancer Game, I didn't known they survived the end of the Scarred Lands (my first and more interesting 3E campaign).Can you list us a few adventures/story arcs that are as interesting as what we have with the Pathfinder Chronicles? Or maybe this is not such a good idea since we are on a Paizo board... :-)
Thanks.
If you don't like dungeon crawls, then, yes, Paizo might be the best way to go for you. The Goodman & Necromancer products that I enjoy most (and would recommend) are dungeon crawls. (Although there are certaily role-playing opportunities in both company lines.) Rappan Athuk (and later Rappan Athuk Reloaded) from necromancer Games is a great dungeon crawl, but most role-playing opportunities in there would probably have to be DM-generated (though there certainly are a couple of them). Most of the Necromancer & Goodman adventures are site-based, with a couple of adventure hooks provided, but the story (IMO) is usually secondary to the tactical and environmental challenges therein.
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I personally think that Paizo should decide to convert or not, as appropriate, and then run with that. There are several editions of D&D, and providing conversion notes to older editions seems a waste of editorial effort which could be better spent of such things as making the adventures as good as they can be. And which editions? 3.5? What about 3.0, if you never made the change to 3.5? And so on.
The decision as to whether to stick with Paizo will depend on whether the modules are any good, in my view. They are so far, so I expect that, if Pathfinder goes 4.0, I will too. But even then, if they are good modules, they can be converted. I will be astounded if Paizo doesn't go to 4.0, so I suggest that any decision be put off until the specifics of the new system are clearer, and whether you want to spend the rest of your time converting all the modules.
It's a given that no matter what we won't be going along with some of the flavor changes coming out of WotC. The "tone" of Pathfinder is not going to change no matter what edition we go with.
That said, I'm curious about one thing.
Let's say we decide to go with a different edition than the one you intend to play. If your subscription came with a downloadable "conversion guide" file for your preferred system, with all of the correct stat blocks and rules for the adventure, would that convince you to keep up your subscription?
Something like this probably would convince me to keep my subscription.
It's a given that no matter what we won't be going along with some of the flavor changes coming out of WotC. The "tone" of Pathfinder is not going to change no matter what edition we go with.
That said, I'm curious about one thing.
Let's say we decide to go with a different edition than the one you intend to play. If your subscription came with a downloadable "conversion guide" file for your preferred system, with all of the correct stat blocks and rules for the adventure, would that convince you to keep up your subscription?
Conversions would be nice.
That said, I'm curious about one thing.
Let's say we decide to go with a different edition than the one you intend to play. If your subscription came with a downloadable "conversion guide" file for your preferred system, with all of the correct stat blocks and rules for the adventure, would that convince you to keep up your subscription?
Where were you for the transition from 2nd edition?!! Now I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Heh heh.
As long as Paizo keeps putting out the quality of adventures I've seen so far, I could care less what edition they're created under. I have to convert all of it anyway, so it doesn't matter to me.
I am undecided whether to switch to 4e or not. Regardless of which way I go, if Pathfinder goes the other, then I reluctantly drop my subscription. That said...
Let's say we decide to go with a different edition than the one you intend to play. If your subscription came with a downloadable "conversion guide" file for your preferred system, with all of the correct stat blocks and rules for the adventure, would that convince you to keep up your subscription?
Yes.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Let's say we decide to go with a different edition than the one you intend to play. If your subscription came with a downloadable "conversion guide" file for your preferred system, with all of the correct stat blocks and rules for the adventure, would that convince you to keep up your subscription?
Yes; but I suspect that it won't be that simple.
That said, I'm curious about one thing.Let's say we decide to go with a different edition than the one you intend to play. If your subscription came with a downloadable "conversion guide" file for your preferred system, with all of the correct stat blocks and rules for the adventure, would that convince you to keep up your subscription?
Erik:
Probably not, as it appears that such a conversion guide would have to change so much as to render the original nigh useless...which makes me wonder about the viability of producing such a guide to being with.
I'm not too worried about this problem, because I'm fairly confident that I will reach the same conclusion about 4E that Paizo does, so the problem will "fix" itself. I'll be surprised if I'm not a Paizo subscriber this time next year...
--Aaron
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et's say we decide to go with a different edition than the one you intend to play. If your subscription came with a downloadable "conversion guide" file for your preferred system, with all of the correct stat blocks and rules for the adventure, would that convince you to keep up your subscription?
HELL YES! Wow, easiest answer ever. :-)
-DM Jeff
Let's say we decide to go with a different edition than the one you intend to play. If your subscription came with a downloadable "conversion guide" file for your preferred system, with all of the correct stat blocks and rules for the adventure, would that convince you to keep up your subscription?
That would certainly make the decision much more difficult.
I won't be playing 4E. At all. So having a book that defaults to 4E, but has a conversion to 3.5...well, I'd probably buy 1-3 to test the quality.
Since "Paizo == quality game products", that likely means I'd stay with it even after 4E.
If there is a conversion pdf I would stick around..Though I doubt it will be that simple. I think Paizo will have to choose one format or the other once they get a look at the rules.
I am one of those people who said they would cancell their subscriptions if Pathfinder converted to 4th edition.
Its not a threat when I say it..Its the truth. Erik asked for our opinion and I gave it.
What gets me is there are some people who actually think that everyone (or almost everyone) who says they will stick with 3.5 and will not convert are bluffing or making threats.
They are of the opinion that we are liers and we actually will convert to 4th when it comes out. That our threats to not buy 4th edition product is just hot air and we are misleading Paizo.
This opinion is almost insulting.
Let's say we decide to go with a different edition than the one you intend to play. If your subscription came with a downloadable "conversion guide" file for your preferred system, with all of the correct stat blocks and rules for the adventure, would that convince you to keep up your subscription?
Yes; but I suspect that it won't be that simple.
I share this suspicion. If conversion is not difficult, then WotC is steering the fan base wrong when they suggest "start over rather than convert".
If conversion is difficult, it may not be worth the effort or might completely change the nature of the Pathfinder adventures/stories.
I would certainly CONSIDER maintaining my subscription if Pathfinder goes 4e and offers 3.5 conversion docs. I can't say it would convince me, however.
If there is a conversion pdf I would stick around..Though I doubt it will be that simple. I think Paizo will have to choose one format or the other once they get a look at the rules.
I am one of those people who said they would cancell their subscriptions if Pathfinder converted to 4th edition.
Its not a threat when I say it..Its the truth. Erik asked for our opinion and I gave it.
What gets me is there are some people who actually think that everyone (or almost everyone) who says they will stick with 3.5 and will not convert are bluffing or making threats.
They are of the opinion that we are liers and we actually will convert to 4th when it comes out. That our threats to not buy 4th edition product is just hot air and we are misleading Paizo.
This opinion is almost insulting.
No, that opinion IS insulting. Aside from all of the underwhelming 4e tidbits I've seen thus far, the fact of the matter is, I can only afford so much RPG budget.
If I wanted to purchase 4e, I would have to do so at Pathfinder's & GM's expense (at least to some degree). With WotC's PHB/DMG/MM each year strategy, it might be years (I'm guessing at least through PHB2/DMG2/MM2) before enough of the "3.5 core" material is available again. Not to mention other 3rd-party re-releases.
Since my group is happy with 3.5, not interested in 4e, and I've already got an extensive 3.5/OGL library that enables me to run fantasy RPGs the way we all like, I can justify RPG purchases for settings and adventures and the occasional OGL rules supplement. I can't justify repurchasing my RPG library. Since I don't have time to run both 4e and 3.5 games, I WON'T be running 4e.
That's not hyperbole. That's reality - from both an economic as well as an available time perspective.
This probably doesn't add anything to the conversation, but I'm in a place right now where edition is very low on my list of gaming concerns. For me, the deciding factors for whether or not I would ever cancel my Pathfinder subscription are the quality of the material and the difficulty of converting that material to my homebrew setting. However, I'm not opposed to a 3.5 to 4th conversion document as long as the extra work doesn't lead to delays or cause a dip in quality. But even without such a document, I would more likely than not just set aside those issues of Pathfinder until such time as I can manufacture my own statblocks (something I'd actually prefer anyways)...
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My ultimate feeling on edition/rules-set change:
It is difficult -- in the past, near impossible -- to play an older edition in MANY cases. Sure, many groups (Valegrim's and Grimcleaver's, for example) have had the same basic folks for years -- they would have no problem.
I am not that lucky. I think many folks are not that lucky. If you're not part of a long-time group it can be very hard to find gamers or join a group. Every 8-10 months schedules or whatever change, and then the lull begins. My case is exceptional: I have spent an average of 4 years in one state before moving -- since 1994. The plus to that is that I'm experienced at teaching the game and getting a group together -- but because I will not support WotC it will be very hard for me to find a group (I'll be moving again in about 6-8 months) at the beginning of 4E.
So,
Why would a system which was universally known need to be current?
How hard would it be for you to get a group of gamers (not your current group) to play 2E?
-W. E. Ray
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How hard would it be for you to get a group of gamers (not your current group) to play 2E?-W. E. Ray
Like anything you need to "go" where these people hang out. There are online resources for finding players that prefer older versions of the game. I believe that www.dragonsfoot.com offers such service.
Now, I will admit, the area you are in might not have a lot of people who are willing to try an older edition. But there are resources out there for finding these players and I am sure most large cities have a community of "old school" players.
And maybe I have been very lucky but I have always met players that are willing to try new (and old) things.
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With the magic of the OGL and the number of material it produced from third party publishers I think we are going to see a lot more gamers sticking to 3.5 than we saw with previous editions. This will happen for a number of reasons but I don't think it is too far of a stretch to believe that the next few years will see a split in the D&D consumer base. In fact, I agree with many people when they say the transition from 2e to 3e is not a good point of reference for this edition change.
I think an industrious third party publisher with clout could take advantage of this situation and make sure those people either 1) never convert or 2) convert but maintain a 3.x game as well. I am not convinced that choosing the 3.x route will be financial suicide. But I can admit I am not entirely convinced the piece of the pie will remain as big as it is now for the company that makes that choice, whomever it might be.
I will be very interested in seeing where the current alternate OGL games will go with the release of 4e. Where will we see Iron Heroes, Arcana Evolved, True20, and Castles and Crusades after the next year? I think the split already exists and if those systems can maintain a steady fandom then a third party company could remain a 3.x producer and be quite comfortable. But, like I said, I could be totally wrong about that and only time will bear the truth of it.
As for Erik's question, I would happily buy Pathfinder if a conversion guide is offered. I don't currently have a subscription because I had to channel my money elsewhere but I have been picking up Pathfinder individually when I can because the quality is fantastic. I plan on re-instating my sub as soon as I feel it is realistic to do so.
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www.dragonsfoot.com
Wow, thanks.
My work does not allow me much opportunity for on-line ventures and thus I'm very ignorant about what all's out there. Paizo really is one of only 3 websites I use (except Wiki & Dictionary etc.). I only just found out about Lilith's Chat Room because Cosmo recommended it on the phone; I went on Sat when Paizo was down -- it was my first ever chat room experience -- BTW, Lilith, it was quite interesting, I "chatted" with Daigle, Yeux, PenDragon(?) from Brazil and a few other folks -- neat.
We are going to see a lot more gamers sticking to 3.5 than we saw with previous editions.
I agree; I'm also thinking, like Vic has mentioned (and you) that a company sticking w/ 3E might not be business suicide. But that is still quite scary because...
The next few years will see a split in the D&D consumer base.
Yeah, and we are a small consumer group -- and shrinking. It's quite scary.
-W. E. Ray
I only just found out about Lilith's Chat Room because Cosmo recommended it on the phone; I went on Sat when Paizo was down -- it was my first ever chat room experience -- BTW, Lilith, it was quite interesting, I "chatted" with Daigle, Yeux, PenDragon(?) from Brazil and a few other folks -- neat.
Glad you liked it! Stop on by anytime! :D
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Wow, thanks.
My work does not allow me much opportunity for on-line ventures and thus I'm very ignorant about what all's out there.
No problem, glad I could help. I don't get to browse often either. Actually, Paizo is about the only game company site I can reach from work.
Yeah, and we are a small consumer group -- and shrinking. It's quite scary.
-W. E. Ray
This scares me as well. I hope this is just a really bad "downturn" and that the market will recover. I don't know if it will ever reach the point we saw at the release of 3e.
I don't think tabletop RPGs are destined to die but I hope it doesn't become marginalized either. Going to cons like Gencon usually gives me hope the hobby will continue to "thrive".
Personally, if Pathfinder goes 4e, I go 4e.
I know I keep saying that, but I have a good reason: I want to make it my signature line, trademark it, and live off the royalties in wealth and comfort.
Also, it applies to this discussion as well as the others I have said it.
And now, for the big reason:
Right now, I'm not very enthusiastic about 4e. I don't keep track of the news any more, but the rules changes (the purely mechanical parts) I did hear about did seem okay. But I like almost none of the flavour changes, or the rules changes that influence flavour.
BUT: If Paizo decides that they change to 4e, that tells me that they've found a way to make 4e work with proper fantasy (you know, the sort where the average adventurer isn't a "Dragonborn" lizardhead or something weird like that) so that as long as I rely on companies like Paizo for flavour, I can live with 4e's mechanics.
I like Pathfinder, and I like what I've seen so far of the world it's set in. I want to continue using Pathfinder, and that means that I'll switch along with them. Doesn't mean that I'll buy a lot of 4e WotC books - only what I need to use Pathfinder.
Paizo staff also comes over to me as as being enthusiastic about their stuff, and that they care about their fans. There have been a couple of screw-ups, of course (hard to avoid that), but even then, their responses seemed to me as being honest excuses and promises of improvement, not just spin control (Wizards' responses in the last couple of months simply cry "spon control")
So, in the end, right now I'm inclined to trust their judgement about the viability of 4e.
It's a given that no matter what we won't be going along with some of the flavor changes coming out of WotC. The "tone" of Pathfinder is not going to change no matter what edition we go with.
That said, I'm curious about one thing.
Let's say we decide to go with a different edition than the one you intend to play. If your subscription came with a downloadable "conversion guide" file for your preferred system, with all of the correct stat blocks and rules for the adventure, would that convince you to keep up your subscription?
Yes, It would.
I haven't read through the whole thread, so someone else might have mentioned it, but wasn't there talk about this being done for C&C, True20 and whatever D&D-like games there are now, too? I'm a 3.5e man myself, but doesn't mean I'm not at least a bit curious about those games.