Creative Director
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Depends what you mean by "typical." Crimson Throne will have its share of dungeons; most of them will be smaller complexes, though, of about a dozen or less rooms. And many of them won't necessarily be "underground." In Edge of Anarchy, there's only one dungeon complex that's underground, but there are several aboveground complexes the party explores as well.
How would you rate Age of Worms, Savage Tide, Runelords, and Shackled City when it comes to the amount of dungeons?
How would you rate Age of Worms, Savage Tide, Runelords, and Shackled City when it comes to the amount of dungeons?
Shackled City had way too much dungeon crawl! I haven't read through Age of Worms. I'm not too fond of dungeon crawl either, so even Savage Tide has a little too much for my taste (but keep in mind, if the entire AP was one big outdoor extravaganza, I'd be super happy). But I'm assuming many people like dungeon crawl, so to me, Savage Tide is golden on the mix of dungeon, outdoor, variety, etc.
I think it's easy enough to make dungeon's smaller and create more outdoor, urban, or roleplaying encounters if that's your bag (like it is mine).
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Depends what you mean by "typical." Crimson Throne will have its share of dungeons; most of them will be smaller complexes, though, of about a dozen or less rooms. And many of them won't necessarily be "underground." In Edge of Anarchy, there's only one dungeon complex that's underground, but there are several aboveground complexes the party explores as well.
How would you rate Age of Worms, Savage Tide, Runelords, and Shackled City when it comes to the amount of dungeons?
I wouldn't say these APs are "lite" but I'm ready for one that is primarily* dungeon crawl (just for a change of pace).
*primarily does not mean entirely, just a bunch.
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Depends what you mean by "typical." Crimson Throne will have its share of dungeons; most of them will be smaller complexes, though, of about a dozen or less rooms. And many of them won't necessarily be "underground." In Edge of Anarchy, there's only one dungeon complex that's underground, but there are several aboveground complexes the party explores as well.
How would you rate Age of Worms, Savage Tide, Runelords, and Shackled City when it comes to the amount of dungeons?
I have to second Zoocat on this one - neither I nor my players are huge dungeon crawl fans. I think it stems, on my part, from the inherent limitations 3.x has in dealing with these scenarios. When you're dealing with "3 encounters and you're done for the day," it becomes very difficult to justify 20 and 30 room "dungeons", each room of which is an encounter, and which somehow manage to avoid triggering the adjoining encounters.
To answer your question, James, I felt like Shackled City was All Dungeon Crawl, All the Time, but I didn't get to finish it -- a combination of scheduling problems and all of us getting sick of the dungeon motif. I like the size of the Glassworks and Caverns of Wrath from Burnt Offerings. Thistletop is really a bit large for what I'm thinking of. Misgivings is also a bit large, but the nature of the encounters mitigates that significantly.
I'd really like to see a focus on more, smaller "dungeons" rather than huge monolithic encounter areas. I should be able to deal with a single encounter complex in about 3-4 hours of play time at the most.
I hope very much that you don't do a primarily dungeon-crawl AP. If you do go that route, I'd appreciate it if you'd warn us ahead of time so I can suspend my subscription for the duration :D
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Creative Director
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We'll generally be anouncing the plots of Pathfinder Adventure Paths about half a year or more before they begin, so no one should really ever be caught off guard by what we're up to.
That said, even if an adventure path ISN'T what you're looking for, the 2nd half of each Pathfinder will remain varied and contain all manner of stuff you can use to expand your games, so even if you don't ever want to run the adventure, hopefully there'll be enough in there to keep everyone interested.
That said... we're a long way off before I start trying anything particularly experimental in Pathfinder, including All Dungeon Adventure Paths. In large part, reader feedback and messageboard posts will drive what sorts of campaigns we do.
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Depends what you mean by "typical."
I mean what is in the average published adventure. Published adventures always seem to be too reliant on room-to-room exploration. Paizo has done a lot to fix this (and it is much appreciated!), but I still find it too great for my tastes.
Crimson Throne will have its share of dungeons; most of them will be smaller complexes, though, of about a dozen or less rooms.
Yay! A dozen or less rooms I can handle. But if you are putting two or three of these into a single adventure, that may be too much. Then again, Pathfinder adventures are a bit longer than Dungeon adventures, and will take up several gaming sessions for me, so I probably wouldn't mind two of these as long as they were separated by a non-room-to-room section.
And many of them won't necessarily be "underground."
The fact that they are underground or not isn't the problem. My issue stems from any place that has too many rooms to explore. The problem is this: Dungeons (any place with rooms) usually bring the story to a grinding halt. The story gets put on the back burner while the PC's go room to room killing and looting. As a DM, I get bored and restless running dungeons. I'd rather advance the story.
How would you rate Age of Worms, Savage Tide, Runelords, and Shackled City when it comes to the amount of dungeons?
Shackled City and Age of Worms were certainly too dungeon heavy. "Life's Bazaar" (the first adventure in SCAP) had over a hundred rooms. Over 90 of those were in the Jzadirune complex. But Jzadirune wasn't there for the story. The PC's had to find the missing children and had to go through Jzadirune to get there, but the complex was just there so the PC's would have to through it. It had nothing to do with the story. A DM could skip these 90+ rooms and no one would notice.
As for Savage Tide, I've only read the first half. (Even though I have all the issues. I'm behind and need to catch up.) I can't say about the second half, but the first half is a big improvement. A sea voyage, the Sargasso Sea, an overland journey, and a pirate seige on Farshore-- these are good examples of what I'd rather have than another dungeon crawl.
As for Runelords, well I'm behind on that, too. I'm about halfway through #2 and I'd rather talk about all three as a whole. So, let me catch up and I will get back to you, k?
Keep in mind that I'm not asking for no rooms at all. The story will need to go indoors on occasion. I'm just asking the dungeons be toned down, that they not be the focus of an adventure, that the STORY be the focus.
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if the entire AP was one big outdoor extravaganza, I'd be super happy). But I'm assuming many people like dungeon crawl, so to me, Savage Tide is golden on the mix of dungeon, outdoor, variety, etc.
I'd would also be super happy to have an all wilderness AP. But, like Whimsy Chris, I realize that I'm not the only one playing these and don't mind mixing it up a bit.
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Creative Director
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Well... it sounds like Crimson Throne will have too many dungeons for you then. There may come a point in the future where we do an adventure path that has very few dungeons, but that point has to come when Pathfinder's more mature and we can start getting more experimental. Just looking at the current outline for the first adventure in Crimson Throne, it looks like we've got about four complexes in all, each with about a dozen rooms. And at least two adventures in the campaign will have very large complexes with several dozen rooms each.
Still... give it a look when it comes out. There's going to be quite a lot of urban and political stuff in Crimson Throne as well, as well as one adventure that's got quite a lot of outdoor stuff, so somewhere in there should be some things you'll get a kick out of.
While fortresses, small strongholds and the like (like the glassworks) are technically dungeons, I don't consider them dungeons in the negative (at least for me, it is) sense. With _dungeons_, I really mean really vast underground structures where the monsters co-exist with little to no reason at all, and where the party must expect to rest several times, and even retreat back to the surface in order to complete.
To use a couple of example of Mr. Jacobs' own brilliant Red Hand of Doom, both Vraath Keep and The Town Hall of Rhest are basically dungeons. Still, one attack on each should be sufficient to sweep the "dungeon". Even if a retreat is necessary, the enemies will react accordingly, which is good. In Burnt Offerings, Thistletop is the only dungeon that falls into the "too long" category for me (barely), but that is only because they are low-level. And even then, almost all of its inhabitants are part of the same force, which in my mind is a lot more plausible.
Dungeons with goblins, mind-flayers, troglodytes, oozes, zombies and yrthaks in different rooms of the complex are hopefully a part of D&D that is far behind us.
Hope that made some sense.
Still... give it a look when it comes out. There's going to be quite a lot of urban and political stuff in Crimson Throne as well, as well as one adventure that's got quite a lot of outdoor stuff, so somewhere in there should be some things you'll get a kick out of.
Definitely check it out. Edge of Anarchy is very not dungeony. There are complexes as James pointed out, but much in the vein trellian's talking about right above - they aren't dungeony-dungeons (except for one of the four), but rather interesting urban locations. It's kind of the best of both worlds - they satisfy some fans cravings for dungeon-crawling, and yet they are totally unlike the classic "you're underground in the dark" dungeony feel. Also no dungeon I create ever really has more than a dozen rooms, because I can't stomach running a crawl longer than that - and neither can my particular players (not saying it's bad to do a big dungeon sprawl at all, just that my players don't dig on them really).
Also, as James pointed out - there is tons of crazy interesting politics/intrigue stuff going on in Edge of Anarchy that I think a lot of people who aren't fans of the traditional dungeon-crawl adventure will really appreciate (I hope!).
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Still... give it a look when it comes out.
Oh, definitely! I'm into Pathfinder for the long haul. Regardless of how I feel about dungeons, I love what you guys have done with Dungeon /Pathfinder/Gamemastery. I'm really looking forward to running "Rise of the Runelords." And I'm sure I'll enjoy "Crimson Throne" just as much.
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Edge of Anarchy is very not dungeony. There are complexes as James pointed out, but much in the vein trellian's talking about right above - they aren't dungeony-dungeons (except for one of the four), but rather interesting urban locations.
Trellian made a good point. My biggest beef is with those pesky "dungeony-dungeons." The non-dungeony-dungeons I think I will like just fine.
Also no dungeon I create ever really has more than a dozen rooms, because I can't stomach running a crawl longer than that - and neither can my particular players
Yes! It feels so good to hear you say this! That's exactly how I (and my players) are. I'm glad to hear that Nicolas Logue is just like me!
Also, as James pointed out - there is tons of crazy interesting politics/intrigue stuff going on in Edge of Anarchy that I think a lot of people who aren't fans of the traditional dungeon-crawl adventure will really appreciate (I hope!).
I'm looking forward to it. Can't wait!
How would you rate Age of Worms, Savage Tide, Runelords, and Shackled City when it comes to the amount of dungeons?
Shackled City - The dungeons were a bit too numerous and a bit too long, but it was balanced by tons of roleplaying opportunities that my group would take advantage of between sessions. I found that a good third of my gaming sessions in that aborted campaign were completely off the 'script' of the adventures as written.
Age of Worms - I haven't run this one so my opinion is solely based on reading the adventures. It seemed very heavy on dungeons early on, but things were mixed up enough later that it probably balanced out.
Savage Tide - Ran the first 3 adventures of this before my group fell apart, and while the first two were a bit crawly if you include the Vanderboren manor as a 'dungeon', none was so long that my players lost interest. The Lotus Dragon guild hall was close, but it was so dynamic, with fights beginning in one room and continuing over a quarter of the complex as the dragons used hit and run tactics that my players didn't even notice that we spent the better part of three gaming sessions in there.
It's my belief the actual number of rooms in a dungeon is less important than the way the encounters are designed. For instance, with WOTC moving to the delve format, their adventures have basically become 'kick down the door, kill, loot, repeat'. Occasionally you will see a note in one of the encounters detailing that opponents from a nearby room may be drawn to an encounter area, but those are few and far between.
Contrast that with the dynamic way in which the villains in Red Hand of Doom responded to challenges. My players rolled a single initiative in Vrath Keep and only two in the ruins of Rhest. The final dungeon felt a bit long, but only because one of our players was going on active duty, and we had two game sessions to finish the adventure.
Also, I've found that breaking up the monotony of repetitive combats with a couple of good social encounters. Often, these are just five minute parleys with some denizens of the dungeon before they are put to the sword. My players appreciate them, and it helps keep them thinking in the frame of mind of their character. Otherwise, long dungeon crawls tend to turn the best of roleplayers into a miniatures tactician.
Also no dungeon I create ever really has more than a dozen rooms, because I can't stomach running a crawl longer than that - and neither can my particular players (not saying it's bad to do a big dungeon sprawl at all, just that my players don't dig on them really).
It seems you and I share more in common than just an exceptional first name, Mr. Logue, though I wonder where your 'h' went. I look forward to the second Pathfinder AP, as it sounds like it will be a good blend of elements my players and I find appealing. I can't speak to the Rise of the Runelords as I've not read my copies since my friend will be running that AP when we're done the current campaign I'm running.
Mr. Jacobs wonderful foreward to Hook Mountain Massacre has tempted me to peak, though. Blending Deliverance and The Hills Have Eyes with ogres is simply brilliant, and I admire the warped mind(s) who devised and birthed such an unholy union. I shall certainly fear for my young wizard's life and virtue once we trek down that path.
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As well as DMing RotRL I am currently playing in two games.
In one the dungeony-dungeon which we have to constantly retreat from to rest is sucking some life out of the game and I really hope it's over in the next session.
In the other we're playing some Dungeon Crawl Classics modules - they've put a lot of work into making the dungeons varied and interesting but everyone, including the DM, is desperately craving some npc interaction. The beguiler is especially bored...
So I would like to enthusiastically add my voice to the calls for; 'small, coherent dungeons with a plot purpose in which the rooms and their contents are interdependent'.